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Something I was kicking about - how well defended are Mechanicus forge worlds? I can't imagine that they wouldn't be ridiculously over-fortified, with layers of the most ridiculous and ancient defensive technologies and ungodly amounts of weapons.

How hard would it be to crack? In the fluff, we see 100 marines quell planet-wide uprisings and barely more than that reclaim entire systems as part of standard operating procedure. Has there been any precedent?

As one of the IOM's most important assets, it's going to be covered in ground-to-space and ground-to-air defences, and be home to hundreds of thousands (possibly millions) of skitarii and IG/PDF.

It'd probably take an entire chapter and all its resources to crack.

I'm honestly not sure a chapter could do it.
Maybe if they had total and unchallenged space superiority as well as perfect intelligence regarding targets they could but taking a forge world would involve either the forge world being commanded by incompetents or some kind of traitor on the inside.
It'd be better handled by the Imperial Guard and the Imperial Navy and you'd probably need help from the Legio Titanicus...

AjaxBreakerofStone wrote:
Something I was kicking about - how well defended are Mechanicus forge worlds? I can't imagine that they wouldn't be ridiculously over-fortified, with layers of the most ridiculous and ancient defensive technologies and ungodly amounts of weapons.

How hard would it be to crack? In the fluff, we see 100 marines quell planet-wide uprisings and barely more than that reclaim entire systems as part of standard operating procedure. Has there been any precedent?

It really depends on the forge world.

Mars has basement levels that go all the way to the core, full of nasty things that might give marines fear.
Mars and other developed forge worlds have a ring of iron for starship construction and defense. It is unlikely a single chapter could approach such a defense if it was in open rebellion. They would need multiple chapters or the help of the imperial navy.
Forgeworlds are the home worlds of titan legions and the legio cybernetica. While the cybernetic legions might be rather small, a titan legion packs a lot of firepower. I mean they have multiple titans. If they happen to be at home, again you might need more than 100 marines to quell an uprising of an entire titan legion.
Forgeworlds have legions of skitarii and other warriors

Now some forgeworlds are less developed than others, so you could see some with less men, material, and war machines

The AdMech area also slightly separate from the rest of the IoM. If they had a minor rebellion, they would probably put it down with their own forces to retain secrecy and to make sure their precious tech didnt get destroyed in the battle. I dont see anything short of all out rebellion causing the SM to be called in.

Of course there are dark forgeworlds, with daemon engines running around.

 purplefood wrote:
I'm honestly not sure a chapter could do it.
Maybe if they had total and unchallenged space superiority as well as perfect intelligence regarding targets they could but taking a forge world would involve either the forge world being commanded by incompetents or some kind of traitor on the inside.
It'd be better handled by the Imperial Guard and the Imperial Navy and you'd probably need help from the Legio Titanicus...

Ah, yes, I forgot about that wonderful thing the IG do every time there is a call to arms.

So, factoring in about 10 sub-sectors worth of IG and Imperial Navy....

You're gonna need a miracle.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Exergy wrote:

Of course there are dark forgeworlds, with daemon engines running around.

Mmm... The Dark Mechanicus. In the EoT.

Probably impenetrable by any Imperial forces.

AjaxBreakerofStone wrote:
how well defended are Mechanicus forge worlds?

Very well. The wellest of all Imperial worlds. Only Chapter homeworlds, Segmentum HQ and core systems like Mars and Terra would surpass them.

How hard would it be to crack?

Very hard. The hardest of all Imperial worlds. Only Chapter homeworlds, Segmentum HQ and core systems like Mars and Terra would surpass them.

As per the setting, the IoM is one, colossal war machine in need of constant, colossal military supply across the entire galaxy. What are the wheels that allow this war machine to keep rolling forward? Forge Worlds.

 Anfauglir wrote:

AjaxBreakerofStone wrote:
how well defended are Mechanicus forge worlds?

Very well. The wellest of all Imperial worlds. Only Chapter homeworlds, Segmentum HQ and core systems like Mars and Terra would surpass them.

How hard would it be to crack?

Very hard. The hardest of all Imperial worlds. Only Chapter homeworlds, Segmentum HQ and core systems like Mars and Terra would surpass them.

As per the setting, the IoM is one, colossal war machine in need of constant, colossal military supply across the entire galaxy. What are the wheels that allow this war machine to keep rolling forward? Forge Worlds.

And those wheels are bullet proof, come with studs, and fire missiles James-Bond style at you in a car chase.

The Dark Eldar codex has a cool story about them attacking a Forge World.

 Selym wrote:

 purplefood wrote:
I'm honestly not sure a chapter could do it.
Maybe if they had total and unchallenged space superiority as well as perfect intelligence regarding targets they could but taking a forge world would involve either the forge world being commanded by incompetents or some kind of traitor on the inside.
It'd be better handled by the Imperial Guard and the Imperial Navy and you'd probably need help from the Legio Titanicus...

Ah, yes, I forgot about that wonderful thing the IG do every time there is a call to arms.

So, factoring in about 10 sub-sectors worth of IG and Imperial Navy....

You're gonna need a miracle.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Exergy wrote:

Of course there are dark forgeworlds, with daemon engines running around.

Mmm... The Dark Mechanicus. In the EoT.

Probably impenetrable by any Imperial forces.

Honestly I agree that a chapter wouldn't be able to do much to a Forge World unless they had outside help which cancels out their exploits. Honestly a thousand marines has nothing against legions of robots, legions of Titans, the mechanized defenses of the system. Oh! And don't forget they probably have their own personal forces that drive around those tanks they produce and the sorts (as well as any possible IG regiments from a forgeworld. Not quite sure if they have to pay a tithe or anything). Chapter fleets are nasty but I'd argue that the Mech would have several nasty ships of their own and enough anti-air/space guns to make that chapter think twice. Thing is, marines by themself aren't that great. They work in concert and synergy with the IG, Imperial Navy, Mechanicus, etc, etc, etc to be effective. Marines don't have good sustain. They are a special force that breaks into vital locations outnumbering the foes 100 to 1 cripple them, kill the leader, and get out. But against wave after wave of guardsman, hundreds of vendettas, valkyries and more, robots that are ai systems that cannibalize dreadnoughts, titans, and the likely hundreds of vehicles the forgeworld produces, oh and the entrenched preperations of the planet itself. Yeah.... have fun!

There is a good chance there are more titans guarding a forge world than there would be Space Marines in the attacking chapter.

Well, the Dark Eldar managed to crack a Forge World (that had an STC on it to boot) using nothing but a no-name Waagh.

Buuut, they are probably comparable to Fortress Worlds in defense. The best technology, crack Skitarri regiments. Tyran was just a random exploration base camp and it had a formidable defense, complete with its own personal fleet and a full regiment of Catachans Devils permanently assigned to defend it; not counting its SKitarii regiments.

The Forge World of Gryphonne IV or something like that was ludicrously defended. The fact that it got eaten by the Tyrannids anyways really threw the Imperium for a loop because they were amazed something was able to get through all the defenses.

Forge Worlds have no only hugely powerful fixed defenses but have ranks of Skitarii, Pretorians and Titans to call upon. In space they have powerful warships including "Hunter Killers" that are a match for any Astartes Escort vessel according to Imperial Armour.

But obviously the strength of its defences really depend on the writter and the narrative needs

 Anfauglir wrote:

AjaxBreakerofStone wrote:
how well defended are Mechanicus forge worlds?

Very well. The wellest of all Imperial worlds. Only Chapter homeworlds, Segmentum HQ and core systems like Mars and Terra would surpass them.

How hard would it be to crack?

Very hard. The hardest of all Imperial worlds. Only Chapter homeworlds, Segmentum HQ and core systems like Mars and Terra would surpass them.

As per the setting, the IoM is one, colossal war machine in need of constant, colossal military supply across the entire galaxy. What are the wheels that allow this war machine to keep rolling forward? Forge Worlds.

I think a forgeworld might be even harder to crack than a chapter homeworld, which are often feral worlds with 1 large fortress monestary on them. Also no titans or ring of iron sporting bristling space defenses and fleet of battleships.

 Exergy wrote:
I think a forgeworld might be even harder to crack than a chapter homeworld, which are often feral worlds with 1 large fortress monestary on them. Also no titans or ring of iron sporting bristling space defenses and fleet of battleships.

Very true. Chapter homeworlds will vary depending on Chapter, of course, but I admit that whenever I think of one it's Macragge. Which is exception to the rule, seeing as one does't "crack" Macragge without "cracking" Ultramar.

Read "titanticus" by dan abnett. Its about a Chaos invasion of a small-scale AdMech planet. Tratior titans, Views of the battles from human (PDF) perspective. Skitarri. Titan. Guard. Its a masterwork of imaging, what ive come to expect from Abnett really. Its beautifully written and really shows what itd take to crack a forgeworld, even on the small scale. And it gives insight into the inner mechanics of the AdMech, even how they view and worship the Emperor/Omnissiah

Not that small-scale but it's a fairly new Forge World and isn't fully developed.

 purplefood wrote:
Not that small-scale but it's a fairly new Forge World and isn't fully developed.

Small scale maybe in comparison to a fully developed older forge world perhaps.

AjaxBreakerofStone wrote:
Something I was kicking about - how well defended are Mechanicus forge worlds? I can't imagine that they wouldn't be ridiculously over-fortified, with layers of the most ridiculous and ancient defensive technologies and ungodly amounts of weapons.

How hard would it be to crack? In the fluff, we see 100 marines quell planet-wide uprisings and barely more than that reclaim entire systems as part of standard operating procedure. Has there been any precedent?

The usual spacemarine fluff tends to be rather hyperbolic, especialy when it comes to conquering entire worlds. Even the smallest Forgeworlds will have access to millions (anything less than "millions" wouldn't be able to defend an entire world) of trained and possibly augmented soldiers + a titanlegion just to defend itself. Add some of the most advanced technology within the Imperium and nothing but a large scale siege would ever hope to even dent a Forgeworld.

 Lexx wrote:

 purplefood wrote:
Not that small-scale but it's a fairly new Forge World and isn't fully developed.

Small scale maybe in comparison to a fully developed older forge world perhaps.

I believe there's only 3 forges/hives most of it is deserts IIRC, but its pretty moderate planet size-wise

This is what annoys me most about Space Marine.

Graia is supposed to be a forge world with "Strategic Value: Absolute" because there is a single Warlord titan on it. The Drop Site Massacre proves that Titans can survive virus-bombing, so Exterminatus really was still an option.

So why on earth were there not only no Techpriests on Graia, but there was no sign of ANY defensive measures except for one big gun? Graia, despite being apparently home to a titan mannufactory, had no titan legion. It had no Skitarii. It had no Ring of Iron. The excuse is that the "defenders were swept away before the Cadians got there", but... what the hell? Not even a burned-out automata?

A Mechanicum Secutor fought a Black Templar Sword Brother to a standstil and only lost to show that "space marines are just better" - even in the book (Priests of Mars) it says they were even until the Black Templar did something insane to break the deadlock - something which wouldn't have worked if the Secutor's line about inloading every possible variation of attack pattern was true.

 Furyou Miko wrote:
This is what annoys me most about Space Marine.

Graia is supposed to be a forge world with "Strategic Value: Absolute" because there is a single Warlord titan on it. The Drop Site Massacre proves that Titans can survive virus-bombing, so Exterminatus really was still an option.

So why on earth were there not only no Techpriests on Graia, but there was no sign of ANY defensive measures except for one big gun? Graia, despite being apparently home to a titan mannufactory, had no titan legion. It had no Skitarii. It had no Ring of Iron. The excuse is that the "defenders were swept away before the Cadians got there", but... what the hell? Not even a burned-out automata?

A Mechanicum Secutor fought a Black Templar Sword Brother to a standstil and only lost to show that "space marines are just better" - even in the book (Priests of Mars) it says they were even until the Black Templar did something insane to break the deadlock - something which wouldn't have worked if the Secutor's line about inloading every possible variation of attack pattern was true.

I think the thing with Space Marine is that they can't just nuke the planet as there would be no storyline, and they probably wouldn't have had enough time or money to throw at dumping in the ruins of a titan legion.

Tbh, I think they actually struggled with the concept of such a huge factory, never mind a dead skitarii legion and titan legion.

 Furyou Miko wrote:
This is what annoys me most about Space Marine.

Graia is supposed to be a forge world with "Strategic Value: Absolute" because there is a single Warlord titan on it. The Drop Site Massacre proves that Titans can survive virus-bombing, so Exterminatus really was still an option.

So why on earth were there not only no Techpriests on Graia, but there was no sign of ANY defensive measures except for one big gun? Graia, despite being apparently home to a titan mannufactory, had no titan legion. It had no Skitarii. It had no Ring of Iron. The excuse is that the "defenders were swept away before the Cadians got there", but... what the hell? Not even a burned-out automata?

A Mechanicum Secutor fought a Black Templar Sword Brother to a standstil and only lost to show that "space marines are just better" - even in the book (Priests of Mars) it says they were even until the Black Templar did something insane to break the deadlock - something which wouldn't have worked if the Secutor's line about inloading every possible variation of attack pattern was true.

Wasn't there a whole titan legion for the looting spread across the entire planet?

In any case, the Ork invasion was so large that there was over a million spread across a single spire and who knows how many across the entire planet other than "a really big bunch", and the Orks were demonstrably crushing the Imperial fleet, presumably with air and orbital superiority secured, the Orks were free to make as many big booms as Grimskull wanted.

In any case, everything you do is for nothing because Graia later falls to and is destroyed by Hive Fleet Leviathan.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

TiamatRoar wrote:
The Forge World of Gryphonne IV or something like that was ludicrously defended. The fact that it got eaten by the Tyrannids anyways really threw the Imperium for a loop because they were amazed something was able to get through all the defenses.

The Tyranids seem to understand the value of forge worlds and go out of their way to destroy them. Gryphonne IV was basically second to Mars before the Tyranids laid it to waste. Graia and Megyere were also destroyed by the advance of the Tyranids and it seems that the hive fleets show no indication of slowing down their methods. And unlike say the Orks or Chaos who are inclined to keep the Forgeworld, making it reclaimable, the Tyranids just smash everything, eat what they can, and move on.

Thatguyhsagun wrote:Read "titanticus" by dan abnett. Its about a Chaos invasion of a small-scale AdMech planet. Tratior titans, Views of the battles from human (PDF) perspective. Skitarri. Titan. Guard. Its a masterwork of imaging, what ive come to expect from Abnett really. Its beautifully written and really shows what itd take to crack a forgeworld, even on the small scale. And it gives insight into the inner mechanics of the AdMech, even how they view and worship the Emperor/Omnissiah

Its specifically stated that that forge world is understrength due to Macaroth requisitioning most of their titan for the Sabbat worlds crusade.

Furyou Miko wrote:This is what annoys me most about Space Marine.

Graia is supposed to be a forge world with "Strategic Value: Absolute" because there is a single Warlord titan on it. The Drop Site Massacre proves that Titans can survive virus-bombing, so Exterminatus really was still an option.

So why on earth were there not only no Techpriests on Graia, but there was no sign of ANY defensive measures except for one big gun? Graia, despite being apparently home to a titan mannufactory, had no titan legion. It had no Skitarii. It had no Ring of Iron. The excuse is that the "defenders were swept away before the Cadians got there", but... what the hell? Not even a burned-out automata?

The entirety of Space Marine takes place within Manufactorum Ajakis, only one of the hundreds or thousands of Manufactora dotting the planet. The defenders would have concentrated most of their heavy firepower on the outskirts, relying on the rearguard to stop any straglers infiltrating the hives.

And Graia's isn't just the warlod titan stationed there, it is its potential to MANUFACTURE warlord class titans, not to mention the supply of war materiel to the ultima segmentum

 Senden wrote:

Thatguyhsagun wrote:Read "titanticus" by dan abnett. Its about a Chaos invasion of a small-scale AdMech planet. Tratior titans, Views of the battles from human (PDF) perspective. Skitarri. Titan. Guard. Its a masterwork of imaging, what ive come to expect from Abnett really. Its beautifully written and really shows what itd take to crack a forgeworld, even on the small scale. And it gives insight into the inner mechanics of the AdMech, even how they view and worship the Emperor/Omnissiah

Its specifically stated that that forge world is understrength due to Macaroth requisitioning most of their titan for the Sabbat worlds crusade.

And its still packing a few dozen titans, millions of Skitarri, PDF and Imperial Guard forces. Tough nuts to crack.

Yea, the game Space Marine should probably be given a bit of leeway, if only because the actual real-life budget required to render even 1% of a Forgeworld going by the fluff numbers of millions of skittarri, civilians, manufactoriums, giant titans, orks all over the place, the fact that the entire planet itself would practically be one giant complex-as-hell "eternal engine", etc etc, would be astronomical.

...although it'd be nice to see someone try.

Thatguyhsagun wrote:

 Senden wrote:

Thatguyhsagun wrote:Read "titanticus" by dan abnett. Its about a Chaos invasion of a small-scale AdMech planet. Tratior titans, Views of the battles from human (PDF) perspective. Skitarri. Titan. Guard. Its a masterwork of imaging, what ive come to expect from Abnett really. Its beautifully written and really shows what itd take to crack a forgeworld, even on the small scale. And it gives insight into the inner mechanics of the AdMech, even how they view and worship the Emperor/Omnissiah

Its specifically stated that that forge world is understrength due to Macaroth requisitioning most of their titan for the Sabbat worlds crusade.

And its still packing a few dozen titans, millions of Skitarri, PDF and Imperial Guard forces. Tough nuts to crack.

I think they had about a 5th of a total legion against a whole titan legion and accompanying forces...
The baddies had enough to crack it.

 purplefood wrote:

Thatguyhsagun wrote:

 Senden wrote:

Thatguyhsagun wrote:Read "titanticus" by dan abnett. Its about a Chaos invasion of a small-scale AdMech planet. Tratior titans, Views of the battles from human (PDF) perspective. Skitarri. Titan. Guard. Its a masterwork of imaging, what ive come to expect from Abnett really. Its beautifully written and really shows what itd take to crack a forgeworld, even on the small scale. And it gives insight into the inner mechanics of the AdMech, even how they view and worship the Emperor/Omnissiah

Its specifically stated that that forge world is understrength due to Macaroth requisitioning most of their titan for the Sabbat worlds crusade.

And its still packing a few dozen titans, millions of Skitarri, PDF and Imperial Guard forces. Tough nuts to crack.

I think they had about a 5th of a total legion against a whole titan legion and accompanying forces...
The baddies had enough to crack it.

So probably well over a thousand CSM, plus the ruinous powers...

You don't need CSM for everything...

TiamatRoar wrote:
Yea, the game Space Marine should probably be given a bit of leeway, if only because the actual real-life budget required to render even 1% of a Forgeworld going by the fluff numbers of millions of skittarri, civilians, manufactoriums, giant titans, orks all over the place, the fact that the entire planet itself would practically be one giant complex-as-hell "eternal engine", etc etc, would be astronomical.

...although it'd be nice to see someone try.

I think the Space Wolves would like to try...