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I wish someone would make a 40k game that was actually somewhat loyal to the lore. (I.E. Eldar that ACTUALLY dodge stuff, Orks that are ACTUALLY somewhat hard to kill, and not being able to have many SM's but each one kicks butt.) I understand it would be hard but I feel that, if done right, it could create an amazing game that many people would love.

 NecronLord124 wrote:
I wish someone would make a 40k game that was actually somewhat loyal to the lore. (I.E. Eldar that ACTUALLY dodge stuff, Orks that are ACTUALLY somewhat hard to kill, and not being able to have many SM's but each one kicks butt.) I understand it would be hard but I feel that, if done right, it could create an amazing game that many people would love.

It would actually be terribly boring if it was as accurate as you want it to be.

And for one reason.

Orkz can never lose. Its right there, in the fluff, explicitly stated. They can never ever lose. So I'd just field an Ork army, and proceed to never lose a game.

Seriously though, a wargame is meant to be an approximation of the background, not a literal interpretation. A game has to have balance, and a literal translation from the fluff wouldn't enable it the way equally or enough to satisfy everyone's faction.

It'd need to be based on a D100 system, have to apply all sorts of modifiers and take ages to play so the games would have to be smaller but it'd be like the old days. I wish GW would just give FW permission to do their own more complex rule set for HH as it'd only ever be niche but I think it'd still sell very well.

Looky Likey wrote:
It'd need to be based on a D100 system, have to apply all sorts of modifiers and take ages to play so the games would have to be smaller but it'd be like the old days. I wish GW would just give FW permission to do their own more complex rule set for HH as it'd only ever be niche but I think it'd still sell very well.

You're looking for the Fantasy Flight Games 40k RPGs. D100 system, lots of modifiers, small squad (you and your friends) against appropriately sized enemies. Play extensively with miniatures to enhance the game.

 Blacksails wrote:
Orkz can never lose. Its right there, in the fluff, explicitly stated. They can never ever lose. So I'd just field an Ork army, and proceed to never lose a game.

Orks never lose, according to Orks. They can be wiped out but, as they die trying "it doesn't count". That's Ork logic, they can still lose same as everyone else.

 The Shadow wrote:

 Blacksails wrote:
Orkz can never lose. Its right there, in the fluff, explicitly stated. They can never ever lose. So I'd just field an Ork army, and proceed to never lose a game.

Orks never lose, [u]according to Orks.[\u]They can be wiped out but, as they die trying "it doesn't count". That's Ork logic, they can still lose same as everyone else.

That's exactly what a non greenskin would say.

 Blacksails wrote:

 The Shadow wrote:

 Blacksails wrote:
Orkz can never lose. Its right there, in the fluff, explicitly stated. They can never ever lose. So I'd just field an Ork army, and proceed to never lose a game.

Orks never lose, [u]according to Orks.[\u]They can be wiped out but, as they die trying "it doesn't count". That's Ork logic, they can still lose same as everyone else.

That's exactly what a non greenskin would say.

Yes, and your point is? Just because Orks don't lose according to Orks, doesn't make it true.

 The Shadow wrote:

Yes, and your point is? Just because Orks don't lose according to Orks, doesn't make it true.

You seem to be taking this genuinely seriously. I thought it was obvious I was joking, especially the part where I said 'Seriously though' and then brought up a real point.

 Blacksails wrote:

You're looking for the Fantasy Flight Games 40k RPGs. D100 system, lots of modifiers, small squad (you and your friends) against appropriately sized enemies. Play extensively with miniatures to enhance the game.

I've played that, its a lot of fun, but I'd want it to scale up as its about kill team sized, I'd want it to get to the equivalent of about 1000 points (1500 would be even better) and a bit faster to play than a RPG

I would guess 1000 points would buy you about 15 Marines and a transport of an accurate system.

I think it works in a way for campaigns but really just through house rules and (SOME) minor tweaking with rules based on environments.

For example if there's a Tyranid invasion they always get +1 to reserve rolls and maybe work out a system for shooting down drop pods and change up the mishap system (if they land on bio units they roll and they crush the units on 3-6, they move out of the way on a 2 and there's a mishap on a 1). But that's not something they should change officially, just some campaign changes to mix things up.

 NecronLord124 wrote:
I wish someone would make a 40k game that was actually somewhat loyal to the lore. (I.E. Eldar that ACTUALLY dodge stuff, Orks that are ACTUALLY somewhat hard to kill, and not being able to have many SM's but each one kicks butt.) I understand it would be hard but I feel that, if done right, it could create an amazing game that many people would love.

As long as you don't think movie marines is accurate to the lore. Because it isn't. It's just stupid, nothing else.

Exactly.

Loyal to the lore would require the lore to be consistent first.

It's not.

Marines are everything from ubertough humans of about 7 ft in height, in pretty decent armour to ubergod unkillable 10 ft giants who can punch the heads off deities without taking a scratch.

Orks are everything from comic-relief bolterfodder to being able to oneshot titans with a souped up Harley.

Eldar are everything from bumbling, short-sighted morons who can't shoot straight and throw the precious lives of the dwindling race away like popcorn to epic scheming manipulators who have been guiding the fate of the galaxy for millenia.

You get the idea. The Lore is very malleable, depending on which aauthor you are reading, and whose perspective they are writing from.

Given the amount of SM/IOM focus that GW gives the game, i'm not sure i'd want to play the game if it matched the average of the Lore, as that tends to run something along these lines:

Non-marine or CSM force shows up on world
Local PDF/civvies/Guard are in a hard spot, to make invaders look good.
Drop pods land.
Previously badass seeming invaders suddenly lose the ability to shoot straight and their guns become ap -
Sm win
And there was much rejoicing..

True, not all the fluff is like this, but it's a hefty proportion, and would skew the average. Bolterporn sells well

And there was much rejoicing

Sure, fearless Kriegsmen blob with leadership pretty high and unfailable orders seem pretty awesome to me.

Oh, and proper artillery range, I'll enjoy parking all my Earthshakers on the other side of the street, enjoy getting there

 Blacksails wrote:

Looky Likey wrote:
It'd need to be based on a D100 system, have to apply all sorts of modifiers and take ages to play so the games would have to be smaller but it'd be like the old days. I wish GW would just give FW permission to do their own more complex rule set for HH as it'd only ever be niche but I think it'd still sell very well.

You're looking for the Fantasy Flight Games 40k RPGs. D100 system, lots of modifiers, small squad (you and your friends) against appropriately sized enemies. Play extensively with miniatures to enhance the game.

The FFG RPG system needs extensive houseruling to even remotely represent the fluff. In its basic form, a random civilian can survive multiple plasma gun shots and swallow boltgun shots like a boss. And a child with an automatic weapon can keep an Ork in check without problem as long as he has ammo for his gun. Yeah, it is rather ridiculous but at least its flaws emerge very quickly and they are easy to fix.

 The Shadow wrote:

 Blacksails wrote:

 The Shadow wrote:

 Blacksails wrote:
Orkz can never lose. Its right there, in the fluff, explicitly stated. They can never ever lose. So I'd just field an Ork army, and proceed to never lose a game.

Orks never lose, [u]according to Orks.[\u]They can be wiped out but, as they die trying "it doesn't count". That's Ork logic, they can still lose same as everyone else.

That's exactly what a non greenskin would say.

Yes, and your point is? Just because Orks don't lose according to Orks, doesn't make it true.

Technically, the only way they could lose would be by the total immolation of ever last corpse and blade of grass they have touched, but that's only if you really want to get literal.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Blacksails wrote:

 NecronLord124 wrote:
I wish someone would make a 40k game that was actually somewhat loyal to the lore. (I.E. Eldar that ACTUALLY dodge stuff, Orks that are ACTUALLY somewhat hard to kill, and not being able to have many SM's but each one kicks butt.) I understand it would be hard but I feel that, if done right, it could create an amazing game that many people would love.

It would actually be terribly boring if it was as accurate as you want it to be.

And for one reason.

Orkz can never lose. Its right there, in the fluff, explicitly stated. They can never ever lose. So I'd just field an Ork army, and proceed to never lose a game.

Seriously though, a wargame is meant to be an approximation of the background, not a literal interpretation. A game has to have balance, and a literal translation from the fluff wouldn't enable it the way equally or enough to satisfy everyone's faction.

But what if it was a shooter game? If you played one of the weaker races you would play with a squad of NPC's, and the stronger races, like SM's would have a limit based on how many players there were on the other team(s)


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Ascalam wrote:
Exactly.

Loyal to the lore would require the lore to be consistent first.

It's not.

Marines are everything from ubertough humans of about 7 ft in height, in pretty decent armour to ubergod unkillable 10 ft giants who can punch the heads off deities without taking a scratch.

Orks are everything from comic-relief bolterfodder to being able to oneshot titans with a souped up Harley.

Eldar are everything from bumbling, short-sighted morons who can't shoot straight and throw the precious lives of the dwindling race away like popcorn to epic scheming manipulators who have been guiding the fate of the galaxy for millenia.

You get the idea. The Lore is very malleable, depending on which aauthor you are reading, and whose perspective they are writing from.

Given the amount of SM/IOM focus that GW gives the game, i'm not sure i'd want to play the game if it matched the average of the Lore, as that tends to run something along these lines:

Non-marine or CSM force shows up on world
Local PDF/civvies/Guard are in a hard spot, to make invaders look good.
Drop pods land.
Previously badass seeming invaders suddenly lose the ability to shoot straight and their guns become ap -
Sm win
And there was much rejoicing..

True, not all the fluff is like this, but it's a hefty proportion, and would skew the average. Bolterporn sells well

Fair Enough.

 Blacksails wrote:


Orkz can never lose. Its right there, in the fluff, explicitly stated. They can never ever lose. So I'd just field an Ork army, and proceed to never lose a game.

I thought that only necrons never lose. [Orks just never regonize a defeat]

I don't agree that it can't be done or that the orks would be unbeatable as they get beaten all the time I'm the lore...I think that with a d100 system it could work


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I don't agree that it can't be done or that the orks would be unbeatable as they get beaten all the time I'm the lore...I think that with a d100 system it could work

 Bobthehero wrote:
Sure, fearless Kriegsmen blob with leadership pretty high and unfailable orders seem pretty awesome to me.

Oh, and proper artillery range, I'll enjoy parking all my Earthshakers on the other side of the street, enjoy getting there

Lets have proper artillery limitations then. First up, you need a spotter now. All units get shrouded at all times. Roll for wind direction at the start of each turn and scatter every shot 2d6 that way on top of everything else. Finally every other army gets an equivalent artillery because even Orks can make a big metal tube that shoots a fat pile of bombs fifty miles away!

Really though, I'd rather arty and fliers were more abstracted and gave fire support from off of the board.

If we went by the lore any IOM player would just flip the table and yell Exterminatus whenever they started losing.

Blacksails wrote:You're looking for the Fantasy Flight Games 40k RPGs. D100 system, lots of modifiers, small squad (you and your friends) against appropriately sized enemies. Play extensively with miniatures to enhance the game.

I wouldn't call it "loyal to the fluff", though - or rather, its own fluff may deviate somewhat from what you may know. It probably depends on how well versed one is regarding certain details of the background, though, or what kind of interpretation they follow. In general, it could be compared to the differences between GW studio material and the novels. See Ascalam's post - the lore is indeed not consistent, and it is considered intentional artistic licence that sources may conflict.

Actually, I think the TT ruleset still comes closest to GW's own fluff simply because it tries to compromise between each faction's background equally without granting "plot armour" to any of them.
A game that focuses exclusively on, say, Marines would only get you to the Movie Marine rules that were already mentioned, or the Deathwatch RPG. And the same goes for the other armies. So what fluff are we actually talking about here?

Technically orks dont lose. In the fluff its almost impossible (if not impossible) to remove orks from a planet without razing the planet, thus killing it so no point in sticking around afterwords.

Have to admit im surprised there isnt some sort of "reinforcement" rule for orks to somewhat play with those rules. Not sure how to balance it though since im pretty sure if the apoc rule "Endless Green Tide" was a stock rule orks would never lose lol. Your half of the board would never be taken over

 sing your life wrote:

 Blacksails wrote:


Orkz can never lose. Its right there, in the fluff, explicitly stated. They can never ever lose. So I'd just field an Ork army, and proceed to never lose a game.

I thought that only necrons never lose. [Orks just never regonize a defeat]

Nay. Only Daemons can never lose because they actually cannot die and have no clear goal. Even if Exterminatus is called because of a daemonic incursion, it's still pyrrhic victory at best for the Imperium. For all we know, it's what the Chaos gods wanted the whole time.

If we went by the lore any IOM player would just flip the table and yell Exterminatus whenever they started losing.

Hehehe, this made me chuckle. Destruction of planets certainly isn't cheap...

To accurately represent Tyranids on the battlefield would require standard games to be played on soccer fields and Apocalypse games to be played across a small town. You'd then have to bombard said town from orbit to accurately represent their opponent's winning the battle.

 Ascalam wrote:
If we went by the lore any IOM player would just flip the table and yell Exterminatus whenever they started losing.

I like this idea a lot!

 Wilytank wrote:

 sing your life wrote:

 Blacksails wrote:


Orkz can never lose. Its right there, in the fluff, explicitly stated. They can never ever lose. So I'd just field an Ork army, and proceed to never lose a game.

I thought that only necrons never lose. [Orks just never regonize a defeat]

Nay. Only Daemons can never lose because they actually cannot die and have no clear goal. Even if Exterminatus is called because of a daemonic incursion, it's still pyrrhic victory at best for the Imperium. For all we know, it's what the Chaos gods wanted the whole time.

Not quite accurate, it is in fact possible to disperse a Daemon's essence so far apart that it never reforms. Lesser Daemons and Daemonic beasts suffer this fate all the time, while Greater daemons and princes suffer it somewhat more rarely.

 PrinceRaven wrote:
To accurately represent Tyranids on the battlefield would require standard games to be played on soccer fields and Apocalypse games to be played across a small town. You'd then have to bombard said town from orbit to accurately represent their opponent's winning the battle.

I actually kind of like that idea.

 Blacksails wrote:
A game has to have balance, and a literal translation from the fluff wouldn't enable it the way equally or enough to satisfy everyone's faction.

Since when 40K has been balanced?

What comes to the literal interpretation of each race's fluff, they're mostly biased from their own viewpoint (oh wow, especially the Imperium). The conclusion would be that each match would ultimately lead to a stalemate, because nobody can't lose... unless it's a mutual loss.

It's reasonably balanced right now. Not perfect, but reasonably so. You still get the flavor of the universe and that's pretty damn solid. If it was just like the fluff, your Space Marine army would be like a dozen models, which isn't good for the bottom line of the game, and is really limited from a collecting/gaming standpoint. You'd never get to use the majority of the cool toys you've got.