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 insaniak wrote:

 Largeblastmarker wrote:
For the question about long fangs, most space-wolf players convert from this kit. it has a bunch of special weapons.

http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/catalog/productDetail.jsp?prodId=prod1060104.

Actually, most Long Fangs are equipped with Missile Launchers, and you only get one of those in the Dev box. More common to just trade or buy the weapons you want directly.

does geedubs sell ML bits directly?

No, you would need to go through one of the various bits sellers scattered around the internet, or Ebay.

 Meade wrote:
If you're just playing with friends at home, then anything goes... if you take to a tournament or a more public setting, well it's up to the organizer but other people are paying money/time/effort to come and play games on tables with terrain and painted armies, and not have to figure out which weapon is which while they are playing.

Pretty much this man.

PS- The SW boxes has a great number of arm bits which are for holding a bolter with two hands. In those case, I imagine you add a holster and you glue a big arse chainsword somewhere on them too? If so are you happy with that cluttered look?

PPS - Hey wait a minute, are there even enough (or any?) holsters in the kit to give every GH a holster?

Anyone? Bueller? Bueller?

Super Newb wrote:

You tell them at the start of the game. GH is the main troop of the SWs. If you don't do this, if you expect them to stick their face on the board 6 inches away from the model to see a tiny little holster instead, then you need to brush up on your etiquette.

So are you deliberately misinterpreting what I'm saying, or did you genuinely miss the point?

I don't expect my opponents to look for holsters. I have absolutely zero problem with them asking.

The whole point of WYSIWYG, though, is that they don't have to.

This is certainly the first time I've been accused of being rude for accurately representing the wargear on my models, so kudos for introducing something new to the internet, dude.

This is crap. WYSIWYG is the 40K version of "stitch counting" you get in ACW reenacting. As long as your opponent writes down the army list in advance and does not change it mid game I think it is a waste and poor sportsmanship to insist on it. Soldiers have wargear, they also have pockets, and scabbards, and transports. To insist that some necron players necron lord has to be modelled with a resurrect orb to carry one or that a space marine captain has to have the same exact sword he is modelled with is to buy into the logic that forces players to buy extra parts and models to change their army lists one weekend from another. It's irritating. Some wargear is not represented EVER, don't make it weird.

- J

 necrondog99 wrote:
This is crap. WYSIWYG is the 40K version of "stitch counting" you get in ACW reenacting...

It's really not.

WYSIWYG is a gaming convention intended to make the game easier for both players to follow. Nothing more. It's not about selling models... If it was, GW would make a bigger deal of it in their books. It's just an idea that saves your opponent from having to try to remember what everything is... They can tell by just looking at your army.

Ultimately, it should never be about your opponent insisting on it. You should be making the effort as a courtesy to your opponent.

That doesn't mean you can't proxy different stuff from time to time, or that you should have to model things that clearly can't be represented physically. Just that you should make the effort where possible, because this is supposed to be a game of toy soldiers, not a game of Concentration.

 insaniak wrote:

Super Newb wrote:

You tell them at the start of the game. GH is the main troop of the SWs. If you don't do this, if you expect them to stick their face on the board 6 inches away from the model to see a tiny little holster instead, then you need to brush up on your etiquette.

So are you deliberately misinterpreting what I'm saying, or did you genuinely miss the point?

I don't expect my opponents to look for holsters. I have absolutely zero problem with them asking.

The whole point of WYSIWYG, though, is that they don't have to.

This is certainly the first time I've been accused of being rude for accurately representing the wargear on my models, so kudos for introducing something new to the internet, dude.

No, I am not misinterpreting. I am pointing out that the holsters are tiny and hard to see. Explaining to your opponent what your units can do and/or having a copy of the army list is like a billion times more valuable. What you said isn't rude, it just isn't good etiquette if that is all you do.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Super Newb wrote:
PS- The SW boxes has a great number of arm bits which are for holding a bolter with two hands. In those case, I imagine you add a holster and you glue a big arse chainsword somewhere on them too? If so are you happy with that cluttered look?

PPS - Hey wait a minute, are there even enough (or any?) holsters in the kit to give every GH a holster?

Anyone? Bueller? Bueller?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 insaniak wrote:
WYSIWYG is a gaming convention intended to make the game easier for both players to follow. Nothing more. It's not about selling models... If it was, GW would make a bigger deal of it in their books. It's just an idea that saves your opponent from having to try to remember what everything is... They can tell by just looking at your army.

And when you look at your opponents squad of Grey Hunters, and some models have a bolter, some have a bolter and a pistol, some have a bolter and a CCW, some have a pistol and a CCW, do you go, oh right of course, GHs have 3 weapons standard, hence the variety of models, or do you go, "Excuse me sir, that is not WYSIWYG, every single model should have every single weapon, even though I am not sure that is possible using the GH kit GW sells."

I think there is a certain amount of leeway that you come to expect with WYSIWYG especially when it comes to base equipment, if I know its a squad of grey hunters then aslong as they are equipped with some variation of their 3 base weapons they are still a grey hunter and still tactically similar. However when you then add weapons, such a flamer/plasma/melta and so on without modelling it you change the unit tactically and if not represented physically can make it more difficult (or annoying) to play against. It shouldnt be on the opponent to remember that the flamer is a plasma, the lascannon is a missile launcher and that rhino is a razorback.

I understand it can be costly to equip models right but its also part of the modelling side of the hobby to explore, the kits and bits are out there and it can be a courtesy to your opponent to model things as needed, otherwise that squad of grey hunters may aswell be proxied using a bunch of termagaunts.

I will actually go against the grain and say that if you could without risking major damage to the models start cutting arms off to try and get to WYSIWYG status. It will help you as much as it does your opponent. I have I have played against a younger player who had obviously built his models to look cool and his army was far from legal how he was trying to field it. After the game I sat down with him and help him organize the models he did have into as legal and army as possible well changing his models as little as possible. He still ended up needing to rip off a whole lot of plasma pistol arms but he now had an army that would no longer confuse him as much as it did me.

I haven't played very many games since joining the hobby, but I will say that I took the time to build my small force to look correctly as a WYSIWYG army. If I want to "proxy" something I normally won't and instead I will just model another guy to look the correct way which means sometimes I have to purchase more product. Hobbies are a luxury and if you aren't willing to purchase more than that's fine but noone should expect people to agree or to give you any leeway.

There's no rule anymore that you have to model every piece of gear your little dudes are equipped with. Doing or not doing this is a matter completely separate from the rulebook, and the game-playing portion of warhammer.

However, as a modelling rule, equipping your squad with their correct loadout is absolutely the correct option. Half of this game is the modelling aspect, and building your mans up into an accurate representation of their 'real world' counterparts is what miniatures is all about.

A new player though? Who cares, at that point you don't know what army you want to play yet, or what paint scheme, or which units. Slap something down without arms, you're a new player full of potential (for either greatness or awfulness) and you shouldn't feel obligated to blow a bunch of time and energy and especially money until you're positive where you wanna go with it all. And when you're sure, completely sure, that's when you take out the second mortgage and become a pale wretched hermit to work on your army and build the best damn all female were-fox counts-as-spacewolves marine chapter there ever was, complete with holsters for everyone and little red fox tails and kawaii squad markings on their left shoulderpads. Whatever!

Remember, building a fully-fleshed army isn't about your opponent. They are entirely incidental to this part of the game. If they like the paintjob and it makes it easier for them to know who to shoot first, then great, everyone's happy. But the correct loadouts and squad markings and whatever else is about the owner of the army's enjoyment, not his opponent. And that stuff, while kind of a hassle at first, really does make it more enjoyable to put together an army one squad at a time. But you're under obligation to no one at all to do this. Except maybe to yourself.

Im with the "wysiwyg would be great but not the ultimate say" crowd (did i word that right?).

I mean it would be awesome if you can do it, and I have huge respect for players who give the time and effort to do it. But this hobby is not cheap (money and time wise) so you cannot field a perfect wysiwyg army all the time especially if you are new or trying out new lists.

With that said, once you get comfortable enough with a strategy and have a basic group of units you always use, then its best if you start doing changes to be wysiwyg. One compromise I've learned is to slap on the upgrade bit somewhere else on a model. Need another crusader with a power axe, but no more bits to make one? Glue a power axe on his backpack. Got a John Woo esque veteran with 2 bolt pistols who needs a combi-melta? Glue the combi on his hip.

Great website for magnets amazingmagnets.com
You can ask for a sample set when you order, its got tons of diferent sized magnets so you have a sizable set to pick and choose from.

 Melcavuk wrote:
I think there is a certain amount of leeway that you come to expect with WYSIWYG especially when it comes to base equipment, if I know its a squad of grey hunters then aslong as they are equipped with some variation of their 3 base weapons they are still a grey hunter and still tactically similar. However when you then add weapons, such a flamer/plasma/melta and so on without modelling it you change the unit tactically and if not represented physically can make it more difficult (or annoying) to play against. It shouldnt be on the opponent to remember that the flamer is a plasma, the lascannon is a missile launcher and that rhino is a razorback.

That sums up my thoughts quite nicely. Better than I would have, lol.

Super Newb wrote:
. What you said isn't rude, it just isn't good etiquette if that is all you do.

So you're just choosing to ignore the fact that I never said that I refuse to tell my opponent what the models are equipped with, and just expect the (apparently vision-impared) opponent to break out a magnifying glass?

Anyone? Bueller? Bueller?

Yes, I ignored the question. There is only a single missle launcher in the devastator box, as well... but an opponent is still going to expect my Long Fangs to all actually be holding the missile launchers that they are equipped with in my list.

And when you look at your opponents squad of Grey Hunters, and some models have a bolter, some have a bolter and a pistol, some have a bolter and a CCW, some have a pistol and a CCW, do you go, oh right of course, GHs have 3 weapons standard, hence the variety of models, or do you go, "Excuse me sir, that is not WYSIWYG, every single model should have every single weapon, even though I am not sure that is possible using the GH kit GW sells."

Yeah, because that's totally what I was saying.

Once again, because you seem to have missed it:

WYSIWYG is a gaming convention intended to make the game easier to play for both players. That is all.

How closely it is enforced is entirely up to the players. I have absolutely no problem with an opponent's force not being totally WYWISYG... but I do try to make my army adhere to it as closely as possible as a courtesy to my opponents. Because while I am perfectly happy to explain to them as many times as they ask what each of my squads are armed with, they shouldn't have to ask in order to determine that. They can, if they choose[/i] just look at the models rather than interupting the game..

If I can contribute anything to this, it's that regardless of what you do, don't stress over it too much. If you want to build your guys so they look badass, and maybe not use them in official tournaments, more power to you. Rule of cool > Throwing your wallet at GW. But if you want to kit out your troops so you can do every possible combo, and compete in tournaments, then definitely do that.

I only say that because it's way to easy to let WYSIWYG rule your entire model and painting process. When I first started getting into WH40k, I was really stressed about people being incredibly strict over WYSIWG, so I went through and magnetized everything I possibly could. The truth is though, there are some times when you can't do that, and some models just are a pain to try to give all the options. I ended up actually giving up on the hobby for a while because it was such a pain to make sure everything was perfect for gaming. In the end it's still a hobby, and if you're building models you like that look great, that's what matters. I mean obviously keep in mind that having everything in your army be something different than what you modeled is going to be extremely difficult to play with, but especially if you don't have the money, don't stress about it too much.

Cheers

 SweaterKittens wrote:
When I first started getting into WH40k, I was really stressed about people being incredibly strict over WYSIWG, so I went through and magnetized everything I possibly could.

That's certainly one approach. Another is to simply build the stuff the way you want it... and then use it like that. If you buy a tactical squad, and you build the special weapon guy with the melta gun... then just use a melta gun in your lists.

Sure, it's great to be able to mix and match, but it's not really entirely necessary.

I agree. WYSIWYG you can easily avoid excessive magnetization just by building units a certain way... for instance... when would long fangs not want to take four missile launchers? I use obliterators or counts-as obliterators and I don't have to model every single weapon mutation on them, that it just anal. It is nice to do, but anal.

Another way to do it is to just use more psychic powers. That way you can change which power you use without having to model it.

Done right, WYSIWYG takes a lot of stress out of the game and makes it a lot more enjoyable experience, the same way as painted armies do.

A general guideline would probably go like this:

Priority #1 is it clear which unit is which.
Priority #2 is it clear which types of weapons those units are armed with. Special/heavy weapons in particular, and large weapons on vehicle turret/sponsons. If a unit is all armed with the same wargear, such as lootas, or oblits, standards are relaxed considerably.
Priority #3 various smaller details, such as upgrades for special characters, meltabombs, icons and banners, etc.

Most tournaments will go as far as #2 but admit plenty of leeway... for instance if you want to use 3rd party weapons.. it is just necessary that with a short explanation they make sense.

 insaniak wrote:

Super Newb wrote:
. What you said isn't rude, it just isn't good etiquette if that is all you do.

So you're just choosing to ignore the fact that I never said that I refuse to tell my opponent what the models are equipped with, and just expect the (apparently vision-impared) opponent to break out a magnifying glass?

No, but apparently you missed the word IF in my sentence above. Which is rather embarrassing for you since it makes the above sentence of yours useless (and also ironic since you were complaining about me assuming things).

Anyone? Bueller? Bueller?

Yes, I ignored the question. There is only a single missle launcher in the devastator box, as well... but an opponent is still going to expect my Long Fangs to all actually be holding the missile launchers that they are equipped with in my list.

And you ignored it again. I was talking about Grey Hunters and their kit. Let me repost for you what you so obviously missed. Again.

PS - The SW boxes has a great number of arm bits which are for holding a bolter with two hands. In those case, I imagine you add a holster and you glue a big arse chainsword somewhere on them too? If so are you happy with that cluttered look?

PPS - Hey wait a minute, are there even enough (or any?) holsters in the kit to give every GH a holster?

So as you now hopefully can see, my questions were about standard weapons in GH squads. Not upgrades as in your LF answer. Since you missed the 'if' above and also misanswered here, I'm guessing you skimmed and rushed to (incorrectly) answer me because the alternative is you were intentionally misleading, which is bad etiquette and also rude.

Super Newb wrote:
No, but apparently you missed the word IF in my sentence above. Which is rather embarrassing for you since it makes the above sentence of yours useless (and also ironic since you were complaining about me assuming things).

Well, that at least confirms that you're just trolling for a reaction. At which point I think we're done.

Coo, insaniak's being given a bit of a hard time here, isn't he? As far as I can tell, his comments here basically boil down to:

1) Be as courteous as you can to the other player.
2) Make life as easy for the other player as possible.

Both of those aims are what I'd consider absolutely vital to anything that involves someone else, let alone gaming. I'm in complete agreement with him, and think this is as much about gaming etiquette as modelling conventions.


On WYSIWYG: My opinion is that your models should, as far as possible, match your army list.

Epic: Armageddon has a five minute warm-up phase before the game. It's a great idea that helps ensure that both players know things like how you'll both treat the terrain ('does that hedge block line of sight?', 'Is that building a ruin?' etc.), how you prefer to resolve common situations, and it also mentions drawing attention to unusual models that may have unclear rules.

Applying this to 40k, if there are any differences between your model and your list – missing bits, alternative/non-standard bits – then alert the person you're playing with before you begin the game. It's simply polite, helps avoid awkward misunderstandings, and importantly makes the game more immersive and fun.

Being non-WYSIWYG can be for a number of good reasons, including:
1) You would be unhappy with the model's aesthetics if it were perfectly WYSIWYG (a cool pose that prevents you putting on a standard piece of equipment, for example).
2) You want to try something out before spending money.
3) The model has something non-standard, which counts-as something else.
etc.

All of these are fine in my view if you chat with the other player about it before you begin the game. That said, I don't want to encourage laziness in modelling, because I think this is a game whose aesthetics are a big part of the enjoyment for some players. Again, it's polite to take account of their point of view.

The simplest option in the opening poster's case would be to simply rewrite his army list to accommodate the changes. As insaniak puts it:

If you buy a tactical squad, and you build the special weapon guy with the melta gun... then just use a melta gun in your lists.

I agree.

The OP says that he built the models with what looks cool to him, and I think it's a real shame to then encourage him to break his models. If he's happy with how the models look and it fires his imagination, then I think that's absolutely more important than a so-called competitive list. I'm sure there may still be some illegal options, in which case simply make a point of notifying the other player, and explain that – in time – those models will be replaced, or moved to another squad, where their kit is legal.

Alternatively, if the list is more important than aesthetics to the OP, then I would encourage him to either retire or remodel the figures until you have coherency – if not correctness – in the modelling. I'm perfectly fine with 'all of these plasma guns are missile launchers' (or whatever), but 'this plasma cannon, this lightning claw and this lascannon are missile launchers – but this one is still a lascannon' is awkward, confusing and makes the other player's day harder.

Painting is also a good way to help here. Adding a certain detail – blue shoulder trim, stripes on helmets, or a clear marking on the base – and making a neat list of what detail indicates what to give to the other player, can be an excellent way to combine models you love the look of with a particular army list.

Ultimately, there's absolutely no need at all to spend lots of time and money on magnets and remodelling, unless you want to. Much better to play smaller games for a while and use the money you've saved to make some models to fill in the missing bits.

+++
Anyway, I probably sound a bit hectoring there!


Basically, my recommendation is to slow down and plan ahead. Whatever you choose, the world isn't going to end. It's a game, so treat it as such – and remember that the other player's enjoyment is just as important as your own.

 Apologist wrote:

The OP says that he built the models with what looks cool to him, and I think it's a real shame to then encourage him to break his models. If he's happy with how the models look and it fires his imagination, then I think that's absolutely more important than a so-called competitive list. I'm sure there may still be some illegal options, in which case simply make a point of notifying the other player, and explain that – in time – those models will be replaced, or moved to another squad, where their kit is legal.

This +1. I also always find that if my models are armed with what looks cool, they do better than they should

Against new players, if they want to tell me this lego man is abbaddon the despoiler, then I'm still happy to play aganst it.
5 or so games in, I'd like to see some improvement (like maybe getting an Abbadon with a view to painting him up and using him)

Ha, too true!

I'd also point out that tournaments and events like campaign weekends often have their own set of rules that should be abided by. While I prefer to treat all games in a friendly manner, events tend to have more strict rules simply because people come from lots of different places, and often will not share the same assumptions and conventions. For that reason, it's doubly important to plan ahead.

So as an update thanks to everyone for the various opinions and I ordered magnets for my WG Terminaters, Wolf Lord on TW, and TWC. Between the 20 GH I have 2 have Plasma guns and 2 are dual weilding boltgun/boltpistol combo. So I have 1 for each sqaud. As I always use the plasma guns for free as a second choice but somtime I get the free flame or buy a first plasma, so the dual weilding ones can be proxies for now. And the rest have some legal wepon combo on them in one way or another. My LF are almost always ML LF so for now that is an easy to remember thing.

 insaniak wrote:

Super Newb wrote:
No, but apparently you missed the word IF in my sentence above. Which is rather embarrassing for you since it makes the above sentence of yours useless (and also ironic since you were complaining about me assuming things).

Well, that at least confirms that you're just trolling for a reaction. At which point I think we're done.

No, I get a bit perturbed when you don't even read my post properly, miss a key word, which causes you to make a very inaccurate statement about what I said. It's not the end of the world, everyone misreads something from time to time. Of course, when coupled with you completely avoidigng answering something twice, in fact giving an answer that was clearly unrelated to my two questions, well then, if we had to (but why would we) assume someone was trolling for a reaction here, it'd be you. But I'd just rather assume you were skimming / going off of your memory of the conversation and just made multiple mistakes. Oh and also for some reason don't want to admit your mistakes. No big deal, just a strange way to go about it.

The question revolves around a NEW player. My entire force is WYSIWYG except for the wraith with the transdimensional beamer, because I just found out the hard way that there is no reason to EVER have a transdimensional beamer. It just sounds cool. Uh I lost track.... I have to re-build a wraith. Damn.

Oh yeah, for a NEW player my point earlier is that you should not INSIST on it. If someone has been playing for years you should expect it. If someone tells me in advance "hey, I am trying a new army list, these SM close combat dudes are armed with boltguns," I make a mental note and drive on. It is the instistance on this rule I find unpalatable. I played against a guy who wanted my Necron Lord to have a resurrect Orb in hand per WYSIWYG... forcing me to play with an unpainted Necron Lord. Really, I wont play with that guy again.

- J

 necrondog99 wrote:
Oh yeah, for a NEW player my point earlier is that you should not INSIST on it

Unless it's in a tournament setting where there are actual rules requiring it, you shouldn't INSIST on it with any player, any more than you should insist that they say 'Hello' when they enter a room.

WYSIWYG is a courtesy, not a requirement.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Super Newb wrote:
Of course, when coupled with you completely avoidigng answering something twice,....

For what it's worth, I wasn't 'avoiding' it... I ignored it because it was irrelevant. Whether or not parts are supplied on the sprue has nothing to do with whether or not making your unit fully WYSIWYG is a polite thing to do.

I'd definitely put the effort into to try and magnetize your units. It isn't too big of a deal if "that plasma pistol is actually just a regular bolt pistol", but when that TH/SS is a storm bolter and PF then it gets a bit confusing.

insaniak, please, enough already. That's not what happened and that's not what you did. You're making this a way bigger deal than it needs to be, I'd just let it go rather than make inaccurate justifications afterwards. Ok?


Phew, now that that is done with...

magnetizing is a good idea. For most grunt troops it won't be needed (as they'll be using their standard weapons), but for special weapons, special upgrades, definitely a good idea. It may take a little time to set up (but not too much practice to hand drill holes in plastic and glue in magnets), but it saves time (and especially *money*) so you won't have to model 5 variations of your sergant or whoever. Or if you are short on funds, you won't need, for example lots of guys with melta guns and also lots of guys with plasma and also lots of guys with flamers, just in case you want to run an army with most of one special weapon. Better to have them swappable.

Tournaments keep being brought up as being an exception to the normal rules of wysiwyg. In my own humble opinion, a completely new player should be playing casual games first to get a handle on the game anyway, and not trying to enter tournaments until they have a decent idea of what they're doing and how they're going to model their mans.
That's the sort of situation where normal rules and allowances get skewed by a need to accommodate other players due to time constraints and judge availability.
While newer players have every right to leap directly into super serious tournament mode and flail around ineffectually, doing so only serves to reduce the perceived fairness and equality of the event.
Tournaments may seem super cool with fabulous prizes and coveted nerd fame, but new players should practice the basics before hopping into the ring.