Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

So I have a tourny coming up for 1500 points and I know for sure 2 white tide lists will be there as they are my friends that are bringin them.

How do I counter this kind of in your face assault me turn 2 list with a straight Eldar list that will still make my list compedetive and a chance to win the tourny? No forge world models are permitted in this particular environment.

What is "White Tide"? A White Scars biker army?

Iranna.

Assuming you mean white scars. Then just use some of your cheap squads to act as speed bumps and if you bring some dark reapers you will...er reap them. Dark reapers are the hard counter to biker armies. Also take a wraithknight/lords to act as counter assault units. Make sure you keep them away from the grav weapons until you eliminate some of them.

 ansacs wrote:
Dark reapers are the hard counter to biker armies.

...oh, yeah!

I sometimes forget that the Ignore Jink Save functionality of them applies to Bikes just as well as fliers and vehicles.

I too have been looking for a response to this inevitable list that i'll face in an upcoming local tournament.

I prefer to keep my list mobile, so reapers are not an option for me. I take nothing that moves less than 12'/turn. I hate to say it, but Wave Serpents will do the job. S6/7 is only slightly less effective against bikes than regular marines. Infact, S7 is exactly as good against a bike as a marine. The Grav weapons scare my serpents a little however, but my local scene is playing with cover saves allowed against vehicles, so it's not too bad. With Grav weapons everywhere, theys no reason to not fire your serpent shield.

Reapers will work well, but not as amazingly as you might think. A single reaper kills 2*.66*.5=0.66 bikes/turn, for 30 points each. That's not too amazing, especially when you consider that the reapers will be in bolter range 1st turn.

Belly wrote:
The Grav weapons scare my serpents a little however, but my local scene is playing with cover saves allowed against vehicles, so it's not too bad. With Grav weapons everywhere, theys no reason to not fire your serpent shield.

Reapers will work well, but not as amazingly as you might think. A single reaper kills 2*.66*.5=0.66 bikes/turn, for 30 points each. That's not too amazing, especially when you consider that the reapers will be in bolter range 1st turn.

Grav cannons + amps are scary. Grav guns are not scary against vehicles at all. The scout + krak grenades is much scarier than the grav gun.

You should think about a unit of wraithscythes in a serpent. They will annihilate any unit they get to shoot at.

If you have dark reapers getting boltered off the table turn 1 then you have some serious problems. There should be an equal number of bolter shots to # of dark reapers on only 1 deployment type and only if they go first. This is assuming you didn't manage to mess up their deployment (if they go first you should be able to). This isn't dark angels they only get 1 bolter shot outside of 12". I actually have been wondering if small striking scorpions unit might not be worthwhile to stop scouting shenangens...I will have to try it.

A ten man unit of dark reapers is still pretty dang good seeing as they kill full squads every turn. Plus they are still great even if you are not playing against white scars. The only problem being the compete with war walkers and wraithknights. Don't forget that you should always have guide and you will have doom some of the time. With these powers the math shifts about a lot. (Guide: 0.88 average, Doom+Guide: 1.33 average).

Spamming psychic shriek could also work but I am not a huge fan of such unbalanced strategies.

To be completely honest though I think that simple S6 spam as normal will do just fine. You just need to disrupt the SM movements and keep the grav from the important stuff.

Reapers and pure Eldar volume of S6 fire should make quick work of the bikes.

I am not to worried about the centurions, I can stay out of range taking care of the mobile stuff before moving in to dakka them down. Even then, I might lose a dedicated transport, and then my 5+ guys inside can run forward with their psuedo rending.

It's the T5 bikers with H&R that worry me. I'm not a fan of dealing with armies than can match me in mobility. I think they key will be deploying as far away as possible, and taking any opportunity to go first.

Psychic shriek is a good option, especially on a mantle-seer. I'm contemplating keeping my Wraithknight in reserve, or at leasy as far back as possible, to limit the grav heading his way. It's certainly going to be an interesting matchup, for sure.

I was referring to 60 seekers. I have white scars covered now with all your help. I never even thought of white scars but think ill be ok vs them.

With the bikes all scouting (Khan), it's pretty tough.
I've never liked going up against reapers in a fortification.
Yeah, I know you like mobility. But putting a fire base down, and having the speed to cut off and intercept the opponent as they close in can amplify your mobility advantage.
Think about it.
Drop 10 reapers in a bastion. I can tell you where his push is going.

-Matt

Matt2429 wrote:
I was referring to 60 seekers. I have white scars covered now with all your help. I never even thought of white scars but think ill be ok vs them.

How is that a white tide? Perhaps you meant a pink tide?

I assume you are talking about seekers of slaanesh and probably heralds trying to get invisibility? I recommend a Tau buff commander+dark reapers, a couple conceal warlocks+bunch of shooting (warwalkers preferred), farseer(s) for perfect timing, wraithscythes, nightspinner, or/and serpent shields. All of these work very well you just need to refuse a flank and focus the the nearest seekers down. Also use focus fire shenanigans to focus fire the heralds out of the units. If you don't mean with heralds then I recommend shooting them.

 ansacs wrote:
Grav guns are not scary against vehicles at all.

I disagree. Given that Serpents rely on movement to be as good as they are, being Immobilized makes them sitting ducks. A Bike Squad with 2 Grav Guns and a Combi-Grav does this on average. When your opponent has a few of these, I'd say that's scary to my vehicles.

 ansacs wrote:

Matt2429 wrote:
I was referring to 60 seekers. I have white scars covered now with all your help. I never even thought of white scars but think ill be ok vs them.

How is that a white tide? Perhaps you meant a pink tide?

I assume you are talking about seekers of slaanesh and probably heralds trying to get invisibility? I recommend a Tau buff commander+dark reapers, a couple conceal warlocks+bunch of shooting (warwalkers preferred), farseer(s) for perfect timing, wraithscythes, nightspinner, or/and serpent shields. All of these work very well you just need to refuse a flank and focus the the nearest seekers down. Also use focus fire shenanigans to focus fire the heralds out of the units. If you don't mean with heralds then I recommend shooting them.

Seekers of Slaanesh and they refer to that as white tide in my gaming area so that is where the mix up came from. They are not running hearalds as that would reduce thier mobility. The problem I have is that they will be in my face turn 1 and assualting me turn 2. If I'm lucky I'll go first and get 2 rounds of shooting at them however I have very unlucky when it comes to going first as I started keeping track in tournements and i have gone first twice out of the last 19 games (they always roll a fricken 6 to seize).

What I am looking for is a way to counter the seeker spam without making a list to cater to this and become vulnerable to everything else that is out there. I can understand the whole just shoot them in the face however they are still going to overrun me and kill pretty much anythign that is not armour 13 with that many attacks.

Not sure how heralds hurt their mobility they just ride steeds as well.

That said a few things to consider against seekers.

1.) Use terrain, being cavalry they take dangerous terrain a lot. So every time a unit moves through terrain they should be losing 2 models.

2.) Bubble Wrap. Once you have been able to make use of terrian force them to charge throw away units, that will overwatch them, then hit them first because of the charge into terrain.

3.) Focus fire and take them down. A single serpent should be killing 5-6 seekers per turn. Throw in the contents shooting. (say 5 Dire avengers) kill another 3. So every 2 serpents + contents should be killing almost a whole squad.

Guardian defenders. Seeker swarms are potent, but don't have a huge amount of toughness or strength.

A bones Guardian defender squad shoots 20 times, then 20 more on overwatch. Having something to Prescience or guide them helps too. They get charged, they die, the next unit of whatever shoots the victorious seekers. You are out 95 points a squad, they are not getting their money from the seekers.

Yes, you lose mobility. But they are scoring units, can take a heavy weapon platform, and counter a monolist with 2 troop choices.

Seriously, 60 seekers? Jeebus spam lists...

Possibly a unit of wraithguard to d-scythe them too. They are universally useful, especially in a serpent.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also, Breng, that's why they take the Herald. You can give the herald an upgrade that negates that terrain problem.

I'm aware of the locus for move through cover, but rarely see it taken. Many people that run heralds opt for re-rolls to hit. It also raises the cost of each unit to 300ish Points. Even then it does not change the fact that they lack grenades, and so get hurt if they must charge into terrain

 Godless-Mimicry wrote:

 ansacs wrote:
Grav guns are not scary against vehicles at all.

I disagree. Given that Serpents rely on movement to be as good as they are, being Immobilized makes them sitting ducks. A Bike Squad with 2 Grav Guns and a Combi-Grav does this on average. When your opponent has a few of these, I'd say that's scary to my vehicles.

^^Dis. I'm about to try out a White Scars/Space wolves list against my friend's Eldar, and I'm very interested to see how the grav performs. The list can put out 39 grav shots 1st turn. With grav RAW not granting cover saves to vehicles and the auto immobilize, (effectively rendering the shield useless) my gut feeling is that they will do well. As long as he's lost that freakish eldar mobility and can't kite me the whole game, I'll be happy.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also, back on topic: I think if you stick to what eldar do best, which is be highly mobile and put out volume of str 6 shots, you are still going to give a bike opponent a run for his money.
Yes they are nasty, but most bike armies are fairly low model count that massed str6 fire will wreck.

Godless-Mimicry wrote:I disagree. Given that Serpents rely on movement to be as good as they are, being Immobilized makes them sitting ducks. A Bike Squad with 2 Grav Guns and a Combi-Grav does this on average. When your opponent has a few of these, I'd say that's scary to my vehicles.

This is true but you have to look at the fact that they can only do this 1 time. Bikes are also pretty bulky so getting that type of numbers into your units will be problematic if you position in a reasonable way. Additionally on 1 of 3 deployment types they will not have range turn 1 (as you set up in the back board edge). This scouting shenanigens is why I am thinking some small infiltrating units may be worthwhile.

Matt2429 wrote:Seekers of Slaanesh and they refer to that as white tide in my gaming area so that is where the mix up came from. They are not running hearalds as that would reduce thier mobility. The problem I have is that they will be in my face turn 1 and assualting me turn 2. If I'm lucky I'll go first and get 2 rounds of shooting at them however I have very unlucky when it comes to going first as I started keeping track in tournements and i have gone first twice out of the last 19 games (they always roll a fricken 6 to seize).

What I am looking for is a way to counter the seeker spam without making a list to cater to this and become vulnerable to everything else that is out there. I can understand the whole just shoot them in the face however they are still going to overrun me and kill pretty much anythign that is not armour 13 with that many attacks.

If you deny flank and focus fire they should barely even be able to move the distance you kill them back. What type of eldar army do you play? Eldar has to many viable builds to comment off the cuff.

im still trying to find a good eldar build that incorporates 2 wraithknights.

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/552797.page

That is a pretty good one.

Breng77 wrote:
1.) Use terrain, being cavalry they take dangerous terrain a lot. So every time a unit moves through terrain they should be losing 2 models.

If the Daemon player is smart, the Heralds are taking the Locus of Grace which gives them Move Through Cover which will let them auto-pass dangerous terrain.

 ansacs wrote:

Godless-Mimicry wrote:I disagree. Given that Serpents rely on movement to be as good as they are, being Immobilized makes them sitting ducks. A Bike Squad with 2 Grav Guns and a Combi-Grav does this on average. When your opponent has a few of these, I'd say that's scary to my vehicles.

This is true but you have to look at the fact that they can only do this 1 time. Bikes are also pretty bulky so getting that type of numbers into your units will be problematic if you position in a reasonable way. Additionally on 1 of 3 deployment types they will not have range turn 1 (as you set up in the back board edge). This scouting shenanigens is why I am thinking some small infiltrating units may be worthwhile.

Once can be enough against Eldar though. I'm not saying it's a sure-fire thing, nor that they've got us in the bag, only that it is a threat to be considered.

White Tide is brutal Matt.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PicDb--56QA

Looks like grav guns are extremely overpowered. I never knew what they did before this video. Wounding on armour saves is incredibly strong. Im in fear for my wraithknights.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Maybe ill try and take these guys as allies to eldar assuming they are not desperate allies. Will check rule book after work.

These are the answer to riptide spam.

Matt2429 wrote:
Looks like grav guns are extremely overpowered. I never knew what they did before this video. Wounding on armour saves is incredibly strong. Im in fear for my wraithknights.

Wraithknights can outrange Grav Bikes easily and stay away from those guns.

 Godless-Mimicry wrote:

Matt2429 wrote:
Looks like grav guns are extremely overpowered. I never knew what they did before this video. Wounding on armour saves is incredibly strong. Im in fear for my wraithknights.

Wraithknights can outrange Grav Bikes easily and stay away from those guns.

More importantly, Grav Guns are only 18" range, so if they are in range to shoot you then the Wraithknight is easily in charge range - and once he hits assault he is just going to chew through a squad of Bikes every two rounds and jump from combat to combat. Its going to take 2-3 squads firing at a Wraithknight to bring it down if it has its toe in cover, and that isn't that easy to do when you are trying to get everything within 18" of a single model with large bike models/units.

Against a Serpent list with WK support it would be very interesting - assuming the Bikes go first then they can either go for Serpents or the Wraithknights. If they kill the Serpents then they should get countercharged by the Wraithknights, and they have very little to deal with them other than the Grav Guns. If you kill the WKs then you still have all that torrent firepower which becomes much harder to deal with once you start moving.

Range doesn't matter. As the vid shows, Scout move 12" because they are bikes (Infantry, walkers, MCs, and Vehicles only move 6" with Scout), move 12" because they are bikes, Relentless with Salvo 3, 18" range means they cover the entire board +6". When the unit your fighting can move 12" with a 18" range, 30" is hard to avoid.

The only option is to go first or seize so you can fire on them or charge them before they can shoot.

To be honest, I think the best way to take out a heavy use of grav gun unit is clowns. They have no armor save, so can not be wounded by the Grav Guns. Guardians due to low armor save and other units that have Scout to disrupt their Scout might also work.

*Correction... I believe minimum wound is a 6 for grav guns, so 6 to wound Harlequins.

Minimum wound is 6 so no armour helps but doesn't do everything.

The best way to mess up such an army is infiltrators, alpha/beta strike, and horde bubble wrap.

Infiltrators can be deployed ahead of scout repositioning and stop any forward movement with the scout redeployment. You have to infiltrate the units expecting to possibly loose the unit but you can put them into some area terrain ruins and make it a costly endeavor. I am considering striking scorpion to try this out and I am also starting to really want some LSS scouts.

If you are going first you could depoly your forces to alpha strike hard but if you go second you may want to think about reserving important units so you can beta strike the bikers. Good play could allow you to remove at least some of the grav gunners from the units with a beta strike.

If you deploy hordes of cheap troops right on the edge of your deployment the opponent cannot scout as close. This keeps them limited in their scout redeployment and gives you a cover save.

Another thing to think about is that barrage and precision weapons will become even more useful with such effective weapons going onto non character models. A unit of pathfinders or a D-Cannon barrage could very effectively remove the gravguns from a squad. Without the special weapons the white scars army is not as scary.

Wait, vehicles can only Scout 6"?????

General Hobbs wrote:

Wait, vehicles can only Scout 6"?????

Infantry, Artillery or a Monstrous Creature scout 6", anything else 12". So vehicles goes 12"