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So unfortunately I wasn't at games day 2013 and I cant find anything on it. There were a vast number of books sold in the pre release, so I figured some Dakkanauts bought the book.
I'm not asking for specifics obviously, but I have a "few" questions.
1:Vulkan
A: Does he have any representation of being a perpetual?
B: This is general but is the trend of having 6 wounds continued?
C: What's his edge as a beatstick?
2.Lorgar
A: Is his alpha level psyker prowess shown in any way?
B: What's his primary army buff rule?
3. Curze
A: What's his super special stealth rule?
B: 6 wounds?
4. Ferrus Manus
A: What's his super secret metal hands power?
B: Do Medusan Immortals have 2 wounds?

Copied from Bell of Lost Souls (hopefully it is allowed) - via Brother Garrod

Ferrus Manus
WS7 BS6 S7 T7 W6 I5 A4 Ld10 Sv2+/3+

Wargear:
Medusan Carapace: 2+ armour save 3+ invulnerable save
Incorporates nuncio vox and servo arm , may choose to fire any two of the following in shooting phase-
plasma blaster , graviton gun , grenade harness ( unlimited usage ) , heavy flamer

Forgebreaker: range - melee , str x2 , ap 1 , melee , Concussive , Strikedown
(if using him in the campaign , he no longer has Forgebreaker , since Fulgrim stole it , if so his points cost is reduced to [REDACTED] )

Special Rules:
Primarch - ( Independant character , Master of the Legion , Eternal Warrior , Fear , Adamantium Will , Fleet , Fearless , It Will Not Die )

Sire of the Iron Hands - Ferrus Manus has Relentless and Smash special rules ( the latter may be used in conjunction with any of his close combat weapons or attacks) and shooting attacks against him suffer a -1 penalty to their strength.

All models with the special rule legiones astartes ( Iron Hands ) in an army containing Ferrus Manus gain the Feel no Pain ( 6+ ) special rule (unless they already possess a superior version of this rule ).

Master of Mechanisms: possesses Battlesmith special rule and passes repair rolls on a 3+ in addition , any vehicle with at least one armour facing of 13 in a primary detachment containing Ferrus Manus gain the ' It Will Not Die ' special rule

Very Bulky



Konrad Curze
WS8 BS6 S6 T6 I7 A5 Ld10 Sv 2+ /4+

Wargear:

The Nightmare Mantle: provides 2+ armour save and 4+ invulnerable save , grants Hit and Run , and Hammer of Wrath special rules (inflicting d3 HoW hits instead of the usual one)

Mercy and Forgiveness: ( lightning claws )
range- melee str - as user ap - 2 melee , Shred , Specialist Weapon , Murderous Strike , Paired ( + 1 attack )

The Widowmakers: ( throwing knives )
Widowmaker volley R:12" S:4 AP:5 Assault 3 , Lethal Precision ( precision strike on 4+ , to wound rolls of 6 ignore armour AND invulnerable saves )

Special Rules:
Primarch - ( Independant character , Master of the Legion , Eternal Warrior , Fear , Adamantium Will , Fleet , Fearless , It Will Not Die ))

Sire of the Night Lords - Acute Senses , Night Vision. May always elect to have the first turn in any game use night fighting rule. A Night Lords force containing Konrad Curze gains the Fear special rule for any unit with the legiones astartes ( Night Lords ) special rule. Any afflicted units that already have the Fear special rule now impose a -1 penalty on the leadership of any enemy unit testing for fear against them.

The King of Terrors - Fear tests taken against him are subject to a - 3 penalty. In addition , should he be part of an assault where any enemy unit is destroyed outright, all enemy units subject to fear within 12 " and with line of sight to the combat must take an immediate morale check or fall back

Shrouded, Stealth, Bulky



Vulkan
WS7 BS5 S7 T7 I5 A4 Ld10 Sv2+/3+

Wargear:
The Draken Scale - 2+ armour save , 3+ invulnerable save , halves the strength of any flamer , fusion , volkite, melta, or plasma weaponry used against him.

Dawnbringer - range - melee S10 AP1 melee , Two-handed , Concussive , Armourbane , Instant Death , Earthshatter

(Earthshatter - instead of attacking normally , place a blast template ( 3" ) anywhere in base to base contact with him that does not cover any friendly models , all models under the template suffer a single automatic S8 AP3 hit with the Strikedown special rule )

The Furnace's Heart: R:18" S6 AP2 Assault 1, Rending , Line of Effect

(Line of Effect - draw a line from the primarch 1 mm wide and 18" long to determine the weapon's area of effect , all units crossed by the line suffer a number of hits equal to the number of models in the unit the line crosses , this line may not pass through friendly models)

Heavy Flamer ( str 6 )

Special Rules:
Primarch - ( Independant character , Master of the Legion , Eternal Warrior , Fear , Adamantium Will , Fleet , Fearless , It Will Not Die )

Sire of the Salamanders - in an army which contains Vulkan , any models with the legiones astartes ( Salamanders ) special rule gain 1+ leadership and the Adamantium Will special rule.

Blood of Fire - may re-roll any failed It Will Not Die or Deny the Witch tests.

Very Bulky




Lorgar
WS6 BS6 S6 T6 W5 I6 A4 Ld10 Sv 2+ /4+

Wargear:
The Armour of the Word - 2+ armour save , 4+ invulnerable save (3+ against Witchfire and Force weapons)

Illuminarium - range melee , S+2 AP2 melee , Concussive , Master-crafted , Smash

Archaotech Pistol

Frag Grenades

Special Rules:
Primarch - ( Independant character , Master of the Legion , Eternal Warrior , Fear , Adamantium Will , Fleet , Fearless , It Will Not Die )

Living Icon - all models in the same detatchment with the legiones astartes (Word Bearers) special rule who can draw line of sight to Lorgar , gain +1 to their charge distance rolls , and are immune to Fear , and gain a +1 bonus to their total score of determining the result of an assault.

Sire of the Word Bearers - Lorgar has the Crusader special rule and confers this to any unit he joins , while he is on the table ( not in a transport ) all models with the legiones astartes (Word Bearers) special rule may use his leadership for all morale and pinning tests.

Dark Fortune - may re-roll any failed Deny the Witch rolls , once per game , Lorgar's player may elect to force a single enemy unit or model to re-roll all rolls of 5 and 6 to hit and to wound in a single player turn. The use of this power must be declared before the attacking player rolls any dice for the nominated model that turn.

Erratic Psychic Power -level 2 psyker who may choose to roll powers from either Telepathy or Telekinesis disciplines , however when using said powers , must roll 3 d6 and take the two highest dice results

Bulky

( Lorgar Transfigured . Player may elect to use Lorgar after the begin of his fall to Chaos , if so , this rule replaces Erratic Psychic Power.
level 3 pskyer who may select ( not roll , SELECT) three powers in any combination from the Telepathy and Telekinesis disciplines at the start of the game. In addition when using said powers Lorgar rolls 3d6 and chooses the two lowest dice. Lorgar transfigured is treated as an upgrade that costs [ REDACTED]

 gossipmeng wrote:
Copied from Bell of Lost Souls (hopefully it is allowed) - via Brother Garrod

Ferrus Manus
WS7 BS6 S7 T7 W6 I5 A4 Ld10 Sv2+/3+

Wargear:
Medusan Carapace: 2+ armour save 3+ invulnerable save
Incorporates nuncio vox and servo arm , may choose to fire any two of the following in shooting phase-
plasma blaster , graviton gun , grenade harness ( unlimited usage ) , heavy flamer

Forgebreaker: range - melee , str x2 , ap 1 , melee , Concussive , Strikedown
(if using him in the campaign , he no longer has Forgebreaker , since Fulgrim stole it , if so his points cost is reduced to [REDACTED] )

Special Rules:
Primarch - ( Independant character , Master of the Legion , Eternal Warrior , Fear , Adamantium Will , Fleet , Fearless , It Will Not Die )

Sire of the Iron Hands - Ferrus Manus has Relentless and Smash special rules ( the latter may be used in conjunction with any of his close combat weapons or attacks) and shooting attacks against him suffer a -1 penalty to their strength.

All models with the special rule legiones astartes ( Iron Hands ) in an army containing Ferrus Manus gain the Feel no Pain ( 6+ ) special rule (unless they already possess a superior version of this rule ).

Master of Mechanisms: possesses Battlesmith special rule and passes repair rolls on a 3+ in addition , any vehicle with at least one armour facing of 13 in a primary detachment containing Ferrus Manus gain the ' It Will Not Die ' special rule

Very Bulky



Konrad Curze
WS8 BS6 S6 T6 I7 A5 Ld10 Sv 2+ /4+

Wargear:

The Nightmare Mantle: provides 2+ armour save and 4+ invulnerable save , grants Hit and Run , and Hammer of Wrath special rules (inflicting d3 HoW hits instead of the usual one)

Mercy and Forgiveness: ( lightning claws )
range- melee str - as user ap - 2 melee , Shred , Specialist Weapon , Murderous Strike , Paired ( + 1 attack )

The Widowmakers: ( throwing knives )
Widowmaker volley R:12" S:4 AP:5 Assault 3 , Lethal Precision ( precision strike on 4+ , to wound rolls of 6 ignore armour AND invulnerable saves )

Special Rules:
Primarch - ( Independant character , Master of the Legion , Eternal Warrior , Fear , Adamantium Will , Fleet , Fearless , It Will Not Die ))

Sire of the Night Lords - Acute Senses , Night Vision. May always elect to have the first turn in any game use night fighting rule. A Night Lords force containing Konrad Curze gains the Fear special rule for any unit with the legiones astartes ( Night Lords ) special rule. Any afflicted units that already have the Fear special rule now impose a -1 penalty on the leadership of any enemy unit testing for fear against them.

The King of Terrors - Fear tests taken against him are subject to a - 3 penalty. In addition , should he be part of an assault where any enemy unit is destroyed outright, all enemy units subject to fear within 12 " and with line of sight to the combat must take an immediate morale check or fall back

Shrouded, Stealth, Bulky



Vulkan
WS7 BS5 S7 T7 I5 A4 Ld10 Sv2+/3+

Wargear:
The Draken Scale - 2+ armour save , 3+ invulnerable save , halves the strength of any flamer , fusion , volkite, melta, or plasma weaponry used against him.

Dawnbringer - range - melee S10 AP1 melee , Two-handed , Concussive , Armourbane , Instant Death , Earthshatter

(Earthshatter - instead of attacking normally , place a blast template ( 3" ) anywhere in base to base contact with him that does not cover any friendly models , all models under the template suffer a single automatic S8 AP3 hit with the Strikedown special rule )

The Furnace's Heart: R:18" S6 AP2 Assault 1, Rending , Line of Effect

(Line of Effect - draw a line from the primarch 1 mm wide and 18" long to determine the weapon's area of effect , all units crossed by the line suffer a number of hits equal to the number of models in the unit the line crosses , this line may not pass through friendly models)

Heavy Flamer ( str 6 )

Special Rules:
Primarch - ( Independant character , Master of the Legion , Eternal Warrior , Fear , Adamantium Will , Fleet , Fearless , It Will Not Die )

Sire of the Salamanders - in an army which contains Vulkan , any models with the legiones astartes ( Salamanders ) special rule gain 1+ leadership and the Adamantium Will special rule.

Blood of Fire - may re-roll any failed It Will Not Die or Deny the Witch tests.

Very Bulky




Lorgar
WS6 BS6 S6 T6 W5 I6 A4 Ld10 Sv 2+ /4+

Wargear:
The Armour of the Word - 2+ armour save , 4+ invulnerable save (3+ against Witchfire and Force weapons)

Illuminarium - range melee , S+2 AP2 melee , Concussive , Master-crafted , Smash

Archaotech Pistol

Frag Grenades

Special Rules:
Primarch - ( Independant character , Master of the Legion , Eternal Warrior , Fear , Adamantium Will , Fleet , Fearless , It Will Not Die )

Living Icon - all models in the same detatchment with the legiones astartes (Word Bearers) special rule who can draw line of sight to Lorgar , gain +1 to their charge distance rolls , and are immune to Fear , and gain a +1 bonus to their total score of determining the result of an assault.

Sire of the Word Bearers - Lorgar has the Crusader special rule and confers this to any unit he joins , while he is on the table ( not in a transport ) all models with the legiones astartes (Word Bearers) special rule may use his leadership for all morale and pinning tests.

Dark Fortune - may re-roll any failed Deny the Witch rolls , once per game , Lorgar's player may elect to force a single enemy unit or model to re-roll all rolls of 5 and 6 to hit and to wound in a single player turn. The use of this power must be declared before the attacking player rolls any dice for the nominated model that turn.

Erratic Psychic Power -level 2 psyker who may choose to roll powers from either Telepathy or Telekinesis disciplines , however when using said powers , must roll 3 d6 and take the two highest dice results

Bulky

( Lorgar Transfigured . Player may elect to use Lorgar after the begin of his fall to Chaos , if so , this rule replaces Erratic Psychic Power.
level 3 pskyer who may select ( not roll , SELECT) three powers in any combination from the Telepathy and Telekinesis disciplines at the start of the game. In addition when using said powers Lorgar rolls 3d6 and chooses the two lowest dice. Lorgar transfigured is treated as an upgrade that costs [ REDACTED]

Incredibly disappointed.
I of all people could have made some better more creative rules.

I like 'em. Tough, sure. Superior mortal combatant, absolutely.

Demi-gods made flesh? Not really. Sure, they have EW and a few other tricks, but their stats and their special abilities keep them within the realm of plausibility.

 Psienesis wrote:
I like 'em. Tough, sure. Superior mortal combatant, absolutely.

Demi-gods made flesh? Not really. Sure, they have EW and a few other tricks, but their stats and their special abilities keep them within the realm of plausibility.

That's not what this is about really, as this issue was resolved with everyone the year the last book came out.
It's the fact that Vulkan has no perpetual rule, Lorgar is still ML 3 during the heresy, all of them are better beatsticks than Horus, and even Angron for feth's sake, Curze's rules have no creativity for him being grimdark batman.
The rules are boring. That's it.

Kurze is Grimdark Batman. He sees in the dark. He causes Fear. He makes scary things even scarier. He's got a bunch of stealth rules. What the hell more do you want from Batman? A butler and a growly voice? Consider yourselves fortunate they didn't base his rules on Colonel Kurtz, as played by Marlon Brando!

Vulkan should have never been a perpetual. Glad they left that gak out. His rules and wargear mesh pretty well for being the "blacksmith" of the Primarchs.


Thing to remember... the tales of the prowess of the Primarchs are myths and legends. Things that have grown in the telling. These stats represent them as the men they actually were... capable of impressive feats to be sure, but not feats that are mythologically epic at the moment of their happening. They are just dudes built for a specific purpose.

Was Angron really the best combatant of the Primarchs? We don't know. His legend may state that, but in the setting of 40K, there's only 2 people that were there, and one of them isn't speaking. The legends and myths of the Heresy and the people that were involved in it have grown into the level of Creation Myth.

FW writers have no obligation to include every bit of nonsense BL authors come up with.

Can someone tell me what this Perpetual thing is? I don't remember this.

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:
Can someone tell me what this Perpetual thing is? I don't remember this.

Stupid unkillable immortals BL has made up, and sooner they're forgotten the better.

In the BL novel for him and his legion, Vulkan is, literally, immortal. He can get killed by almost anything and, given a bit of time, will regenerate or respawn. Any less-than-lethal injury regenerates impossibly quickly.

That's what they mean by "perpetual", it's a sort-of nod to the old-school Sensei of early 40K and the Star Child theory (also very old 40K) and is suggested (in the book) that the Emperor is also a perpetual, but is prevented from respawn/regeneration by the Golden Throne.

 ThePrimordial wrote:

I of all people could have made some better more creative rules.

Hahaha, no.

On topic, Vulkan looks pretty awesome. Certainly boosts all the legionnaires, considering they don't have ATSKNF, the leadership boost and Adamantium will is a welcome addition. Plus he looks surprisingly durable and beaty enough to stand up in just about any fight, especially with the re-roll to IWND.

Very excited for the model too.

 Crimson wrote:

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:
Can someone tell me what this Perpetual thing is? I don't remember this.

Stupid unkillable immortals BL has made up, and sooner they're forgotten the better.

They can get permanently offed by daemons. So it's not that stupid.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Blacksails wrote:

 ThePrimordial wrote:

I of all people could have made some better more creative rules.

Hahaha, no.

On topic, Vulkan looks pretty awesome. Certainly boosts all the legionnaires, considering they don't have ATSKNF, the leadership boost and Adamantium will is a welcome addition. Plus he looks surprisingly durable and beaty enough to stand up in just about any fight, especially with the re-roll to IWND.

Very excited for the model too.

Hahahaha I could of.
Vulkan has no real character but I'm sure I could've given him some life. He's kinda flavorless right now, because he's literally horus, with earthshatter and that's basically it as a beatstick.
That's negative creativity. Really bad.
Curze?
Seems like he should have the shadow of the reaper rule that mortarion has, and maybe some rule about flat out removing the model and making shortened invisible movements.
I am hilariously hyped for the model of Vulkan though.

I'm sorry, please explain to me how they have no 'life' or 'creativity'? I honestly don't see it. They have a sensible number of rules and unique wargear to keep them simple without being bogged down in rule after rule or effect after effect, and the rules and wargear match the fluff quite well.

If they had any more special rules they'd start erring into the territory of stupidity and imbalance. Right now, they're reasonable choices in the 2000+ points range.

Balanced, simple, effective, fluffy.

I don't see it. I think they were quite well thought out and picked their essence and boiled them down to a few simple rules, which is how characters in 40k should be represented.

 Psienesis wrote:
In the BL novel for him and his legion, Vulkan is, literally, immortal. He can get killed by almost anything and, given a bit of time, will regenerate or respawn. Any less-than-lethal injury regenerates impossibly quickly.

That's what they mean by "perpetual", it's a sort-of nod to the old-school Sensei of early 40K and the Star Child theory (also very old 40K) and is suggested (in the book) that the Emperor is also a perpetual, but is prevented from respawn/regeneration by the Golden Throne.

Wow, that is just..horrible.

 Blacksails wrote:
I'm sorry, please explain to me how they have no 'life' or 'creativity'? I honestly don't see it. They have a sensible number of rules and unique wargear to keep them simple without being bogged down in rule after rule or effect after effect, and the rules and wargear match the fluff quite well.

If they had any more special rules they'd start erring into the territory of stupidity and imbalance. Right now, they're reasonable choices in the 2000+ points range.

Balanced, simple, effective, fluffy.

I don't see it. I think they were quite well thought out and picked their essence and boiled them down to a few simple rules, which is how characters in 40k should be represented.

Kurze "super special primarch" rule is very underwhelming. This is due to similar rules already being in the game, so again invisible movement that makes units gak their pants with the 12 foot superman appearing out of nowhere would of been better.
Manus and Vulkan have the exact same statline as Horus which is sickening. There should be some variation in strength or toughness or wounds.
Manus has no super special iron hands power and functions as an obliterator? You gotta be kidding me!!!
How are you not seeing this?
Wait is the obliterator BS his super special hands power? That's a little less worse but the lack of creativity is killer. I do like the master of machines rule though.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

 Psienesis wrote:
In the BL novel for him and his legion, Vulkan is, literally, immortal. He can get killed by almost anything and, given a bit of time, will regenerate or respawn. Any less-than-lethal injury regenerates impossibly quickly.

That's what they mean by "perpetual", it's a sort-of nod to the old-school Sensei of early 40K and the Star Child theory (also very old 40K) and is suggested (in the book) that the Emperor is also a perpetual, but is prevented from respawn/regeneration by the Golden Throne.

Wow, that is just..horrible.

It is but they can get permanently offed by daemons which are rampant in the heresy.

 ThePrimordial wrote:

 Blacksails wrote:
I'm sorry, please explain to me how they have no 'life' or 'creativity'? I honestly don't see it. They have a sensible number of rules and unique wargear to keep them simple without being bogged down in rule after rule or effect after effect, and the rules and wargear match the fluff quite well.

If they had any more special rules they'd start erring into the territory of stupidity and imbalance. Right now, they're reasonable choices in the 2000+ points range.

Balanced, simple, effective, fluffy.

I don't see it. I think they were quite well thought out and picked their essence and boiled them down to a few simple rules, which is how characters in 40k should be represented.

Kurze "super special primarch" rule is very underwhelming. This is due to similar rules already being in the game, so again invisible movement that makes units gak their pants with the 12 foot superman appearing out of nowhere would of been better.
Manus and Vulkan have the exact same statline as Horus which is sickening. There should be some variation in strength or toughness or wounds.
Manus has no super special iron hands power and functions as an obliterator? You gotta be kidding me!!!
How are you not seeing this?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

 Psienesis wrote:
In the BL novel for him and his legion, Vulkan is, literally, immortal. He can get killed by almost anything and, given a bit of time, will regenerate or respawn. Any less-than-lethal injury regenerates impossibly quickly.

That's what they mean by "perpetual", it's a sort-of nod to the old-school Sensei of early 40K and the Star Child theory (also very old 40K) and is suggested (in the book) that the Emperor is also a perpetual, but is prevented from respawn/regeneration by the Golden Throne.

Wow, that is just..horrible.

It is but they can get permanently offed by daemons which are rampant in the heresy.

Being an obliterator in an Era there isn't any? Ability to restore vehicles as well as giving one an AV13? Halves nearly every single ranged weaponry, not to mention already being -1S weapons due to the Iron hands rule isn't good? Strength 6 Heavy flamer?

What does he need? He's the Iron Hands Primarch, everything suits him.

If by 'having the same stats as Horus', you mean they have worse WS, I, and A, then sure, I guess.

Anyways, I guess I see what you're trying to get at, but you literally can't take every instance of their fluff or character and make a rule for it. It just becomes overburdened and complicated and difficult to balance.

Also consider that they're aiming for the points range of 300-500pts as we've seen so far. So for the points, the fact that each primarch offers a not unreasonable army wide or area buff, plus being beat sticks themselves is fine for a game of 40k/30k. I mean, Horus has a few extra rules to simulate he's overall the best primarch (or at least, well-rounded) with his general beefiness and strategic abilities for reserves and what-not.

I honestly think they're more than fine; again, less is more in a game where every unit already has a dozen special rules to keep track of, and often a dozen more that alter existing ones.

I'll admit that maybe each of the primarchs could have been given a single additional rule to help, but nothing more. Like Vulkan could have done what the Sallies CT does in C:SM with the master-crafty stuff. But otherwise, totally fine and acceptable.

I think they're fluffy and simple. The last thing 40k/30k needs is increasingly more complex units with a dozen rules just to simulate that one time in the fluff so and so did something cool.

... Ferrus also instantly kills almost anything you can put him against with Forgebreaker. A S14 hit? Four times if need be? *One* of those saves is going to fail.

Kurze inflicts Fear at a -3 Save. That's kind of a really big deal. He's got a pair of knives that have a chance to kill absolutely anything 13% of the time. And a pair of lightning claws that grant him 6 attacks, along with a bunch of other perks.

I don't think the intent of these rules was to make the Primarchs god-like on the battlefield. I think they were intended, as I said before, to provide a concept of the men they really were, not the gods that legend and myth made them out to be.

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

 ThePrimordial wrote:

 Blacksails wrote:
I'm sorry, please explain to me how they have no 'life' or 'creativity'? I honestly don't see it. They have a sensible number of rules and unique wargear to keep them simple without being bogged down in rule after rule or effect after effect, and the rules and wargear match the fluff quite well.

If they had any more special rules they'd start erring into the territory of stupidity and imbalance. Right now, they're reasonable choices in the 2000+ points range.

Balanced, simple, effective, fluffy.

I don't see it. I think they were quite well thought out and picked their essence and boiled them down to a few simple rules, which is how characters in 40k should be represented.

Kurze "super special primarch" rule is very underwhelming. This is due to similar rules already being in the game, so again invisible movement that makes units gak their pants with the 12 foot superman appearing out of nowhere would of been better.
Manus and Vulkan have the exact same statline as Horus which is sickening. There should be some variation in strength or toughness or wounds.
Manus has no super special iron hands power and functions as an obliterator? You gotta be kidding me!!!
How are you not seeing this?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

 Psienesis wrote:
In the BL novel for him and his legion, Vulkan is, literally, immortal. He can get killed by almost anything and, given a bit of time, will regenerate or respawn. Any less-than-lethal injury regenerates impossibly quickly.

That's what they mean by "perpetual", it's a sort-of nod to the old-school Sensei of early 40K and the Star Child theory (also very old 40K) and is suggested (in the book) that the Emperor is also a perpetual, but is prevented from respawn/regeneration by the Golden Throne.

Wow, that is just..horrible.

It is but they can get permanently offed by daemons which are rampant in the heresy.

Being an obliterator in an Era there isn't any? Ability to restore vehicles as well as giving one an AV13? Halves nearly every single ranged weaponry, not to mention already being -1S weapons due to the Iron hands rule isn't good? Strength 6 Heavy flamer?

What does he need? He's the Iron Hands Primarch, everything suits him.

I actually play a legion army. And I do it with 40k. Because.....
I already said I like that rule but as a beatstick he's basically a heavy MC obliterator.

 Psienesis wrote:

Thing to remember... the tales of the prowess of the Primarchs are myths and legends. Things that have grown in the telling. These stats represent them as the men they actually were... capable of impressive feats to be sure, but not feats that are mythologically epic at the moment of their happening. They are just dudes built for a specific purpose.

Was Angron really the best combatant of the Primarchs? We don't know. His legend may state that, but in the setting of 40K, there's only 2 people that were there, and one of them isn't speaking. The legends and myths of the Heresy and the people that were involved in it have grown into the level of Creation Myth.

Yeah, dudes built for a specific purpose. Angron was the annihilator. He and the World Eaters were the guys you called when you wanted everything destroyed. You didn't call him to build things or make sure everyone loved the Emperor or to make a tactical strike on enemy lines.

He spent his ENTIRE life in gladiator pits fighting. And he loses to basically every primarch that came out in this book. If they cost more points than him that's one thing; but the fact of the matter is that there's no point if you have Primarchs being built for specific purposes but being better at other Primarch's jobs, too.

Then again this is 6th edition and if you have even a hint of allegiance to Khorne, your rules will be much worse than everyone else's for no reason whatsoever other than devs being slowed.

Maybe I'm just not seeing something, but wouldn't Angron win against pretty all the other primarchs in a 1 on 1 fight so far?

I mean, he wounds any other primarch on a 3+ or 2+, he has the second highest initiative, and the most amount of attacks. Oh, and tied for the highest WS too. His 3+ armour save isn't the greatest, but his 4++ is similar to a few of the other primarchs. I just don't see how he sucks at what he's supposed to do.

He's not the force multiplier some of the other primarchs are, but he appears to be among the beefiest overall.

Maybe enlighten me why he's so bad? At least in the CC role, I understand he's not a force multiplier.

 Blacksails wrote:
If by 'having the same stats as Horus', you mean they have worse WS, I, and A, then sure, I guess.

Anyways, I guess I see what you're trying to get at, but you literally can't take every instance of their fluff or character and make a rule for it. It just becomes overburdened and complicated and difficult to balance.

Also consider that they're aiming for the points range of 300-500pts as we've seen so far. So for the points, the fact that each primarch offers a not unreasonable army wide or area buff, plus being beat sticks themselves is fine for a game of 40k/30k. I mean, Horus has a few extra rules to simulate he's overall the best primarch (or at least, well-rounded) with his general beefiness and strategic abilities for reserves and what-not.

I honestly think they're more than fine; again, less is more in a game where every unit already has a dozen special rules to keep track of, and often a dozen more that alter existing ones.

I'll admit that maybe each of the primarchs could have been given a single additional rule to help, but nothing more. Like Vulkan could have done what the Sallies CT does in C:SM with the master-crafty stuff. But otherwise, totally fine and acceptable.

I think they're fluffy and simple. The last thing 40k/30k needs is increasingly more complex units with a dozen rules just to simulate that one time in the fluff so and so did something cool.

That one time? Yeah, it's their character and what makes them unique, it not "one time".
But I have no problem with the statline. Means they can beat the snot out of a standard bloodthirster and challenge the daemon lords in Angron's case.
A dozen? Never said that or implied that even. I just wanted more unique rules like those found in chapter masters. We're dealing with Primarch's here!!!
Angron is really good in CC but he actually has lower S, T, and W when he's supposed to be the flat out strongest prmarch. Vulkan that much better than Angron? Damn, let's see the grey knights banish him if he revolted...
Angron is spectacular against other beatsticks but against squads of dudes, he's a lot worse.

The 'dozen' I said was obvious hyperbole, the actual point being that less is more. You don't need two, three, or four special rules, when one well written one will suffice.

Most chapter masters or captains only have one or two special rules in most cases, with another special piece of wargear or two. The primarchs have more on average, especially when you consider the fact that the rule 'Primarch' has several rules in it already. Let's not discount that.

I feel like maybe you wish they were designed as higher point value characters, something like 700-ish pts average with a few extra rules. I think FW's approach is more sensible personally, and part of a unit's 'character' or 'personality' is in the paint job anyways, which many people forget.

Angron is tied in S and T with all the other beaty primarchs, so he doesn't have it lower, its actually more of a failing of the stat system in 40k. Each stat point generally represents a significant leap in ability/physique, but it tends to scale weirdly at higher levels.

Angron's biggest failing against larger squads is his worse armour save, but he still deals more damage through sheer number of attacks and excellent WS.

I dunno man, I couldn't be more pleased with how they're going about designing the rules for the primarchs. They feel like plausible iterations that haven't been exaggerated through millenia of recounting. Think of it as that one time you got really drunk, but didn't remember a thing. But your friends saw you piss on a cop car, and every time they tell you that story, it gets more epic, eventually turning into that time you flipped a cop car and escaped by climbing to the top of a large bridge. Its kinda like that.

 Blacksails wrote:
Maybe I'm just not seeing something, but wouldn't Angron win against pretty all the other primarchs in a 1 on 1 fight so far?

I mean, he wounds any other primarch on a 3+ or 2+, he has the second highest initiative, and the most amount of attacks. Oh, and tied for the highest WS too. His 3+ armour save isn't the greatest, but his 4++ is similar to a few of the other primarchs. I just don't see how he sucks at what he's supposed to do.

He's not the force multiplier some of the other primarchs are, but he appears to be among the beefiest overall.

Maybe enlighten me why he's so bad? At least in the CC role, I understand he's not a force multiplier.

Angron barely edged out Fulgrim and even more barely edges out Mortarion but loses against Horus who so far is the "best" Primarch. of course, that makes sense so no harm done there.

High Initiative doesn't matter when 3 of the 4 primarchs spoiled here have Concussive attacks which will make Angron strike at I1.

For example, let's take Ferrus Manus.

Ferrus Manus
WS7 BS6 S7 T7 W6 I5 A4 Ld10 Sv2+/3+

Wargear:
Medusan Carapace: 2+ armour save 3+ invulnerable save
Incorporates nuncio vox and servo arm , may choose to fire any two of the following in shooting phase-
plasma blaster , graviton gun , grenade harness ( unlimited usage ) , heavy flamer

Forgebreaker: range - melee , str x2 , ap 1 , melee , Concussive , Strikedown
(if using him in the campaign , he no longer has Forgebreaker , since Fulgrim stole it , if so his points cost is reduced to [REDACTED] )

Special Rules:
Primarch - ( Independant character , Master of the Legion , Eternal Warrior , Fear , Adamantium Will , Fleet , Fearless , It Will Not Die )

Sire of the Iron Hands - Ferrus Manus has Relentless and Smash special rules ( the latter may be used in conjunction with any of his close combat weapons or attacks) and shooting attacks against him suffer a -1 penalty to their strength.

All models with the special rule legiones astartes ( Iron Hands ) in an army containing Ferrus Manus gain the Feel no Pain ( 6+ ) special rule (unless they already possess a superior version of this rule ).

Master of Mechanisms: possesses Battlesmith special rule and passes repair rolls on a 3+ in addition , any vehicle with at least one armour facing of 13 in a primary detachment containing Ferrus Manus gain the ' It Will Not Die ' special rule

Very Bulky

Compare this to Angron

WS9 BS5 S7 T6 W5 I7 A6 LD10 SV3+/4++

Relevant rules:
Hatred, Furious Charge, FNP 6+, Primarch (IWND, etc etc)

Gorefiend/Gorechild: +1 Str, AP2

So let's do this.

Angron goes first, with 6 attacks

6 Attacks
5.28 hit (with Hatred re-rolls)
3.48 wounds (S8 vs Ferrus' T7)
1.16 unsaved wounds dealt (Ferrus has a 3+ invulnerable)
.767 unsaved wounds dealt after IWND is taken into account

Ferrus then goes, with 4 attacks

4 Attacks
2 Hit
1.66 Wound
.83 Unsaved wounds dealt
.6889 dealt after FNP 6+ is taken into account
.45 unsaved wounds dealt after IWND is taken into account

Then, Angron without Hatred
6 Attacks
3.96 Hit
2.637 Wound
.879 Unsaved wounds (vs 3+ invulnerable)
.58 unsaved wounds dealt after IWND is taken into account

However, this does not account for the fact that Concussive will make Angron strike at I1. This means then that Ferrus will effectively get to attack again versus Angron, whereas Angron can't do anything. And I'm not even including Ferrus' Servo Arm, and I'm not sure about the Sire of the Iron Hands special rule and if the FNP 6+ applies to Ferrus.

Then, consider that Ferrus has 6 wounds and Angron only has 5 and the situation becomes more dire. To be honest I have no idea how Fulgrim even killed Ferrus with the rules as given!

You know what, I completely forgot about concussive. Thanks for the math, makes sense now.

On the plus side, there are still about a dozen more primarchs to go, so I guess we'll see how the balance stacks up later in the line up.

But I guess Angron could use a bit of a buff. At least he's cheap?

Edit* Though I'm pleased with how Vulkan looks. Durable, cool shooty attack and great melee attack. Nice army wide buff. I just hope the model is as amazing as I have him pictured in my head. I'm also a bit of Sally fan...so...there's that.

*Further Edit* Angron gets an extra attack from his matching weapons. And maybe another from his pistol too?

OP, even if Forgeworld was somehow beholden to follow Black Library story lines (which they are not) these rules were most likely already finalized and in the book in the last stages of editing when Vulkan Lives was published and introduced the idea of Vulkan as a perpetual. In the 20 years since Vulkan was introduced with second edition, he has only been presented as a perpetual by one book published in the last few months.

OT: I actually like the idea of perpetuals, seeing them as psi mentioned as a nod to bygone sensei of earlier editions. In the hands of better storytellers like Dan Abnett they make for interesting characters. I do NOT like the idea of Vulkan as one though. I really wish Nick Kyme and James Swallow had never been given any HH assignments.

 Blacksails wrote:
You know what, I completely forgot about concussive. Thanks for the math, makes sense now.

Ha, to be honest I didn't realize that until later as well so don't worry about it. Though even without Concussive, Strikedown halves your Initiative.

On the plus side, there are still about a dozen more primarchs to go, so I guess we'll see how the balance stacks up later in the line up.

But I guess Angron could use a bit of a buff. At least he's cheap?

Concur that we'll see how balance stacks up, however I'm not entirely hopeful. Also Angron is middle of the road in terms of expense for Primarchs. Horus and Mortarion are more and Fulgrim is the cheapest, though I expect that Lorgar will soon be the cheapest primarch.

Edit* Though I'm pleased with how Vulkan looks. Durable, cool shooty attack and great melee attack. Nice army wide buff. I just hope the model is as amazing as I have him pictured in my head. I'm also a bit of Sally fan...so...there's that.

Indeed, Vulkan turned out rather well. I love his blast smash attack, it's full of character. To be honest I like all of the Primarch rules so far, however I'm sure you can understand that I'm peeved that -THE- close combat Primarch loses to dudes who don't have that specialty. Of course it's just a minor pet peeve since at the end of the day this is all fictional. :^)

*Further Edit* Angron gets an extra attack from his matching weapons. And maybe another from his pistol too?

Unfortunately, Gorefiend&Gorechild is one entry and the rulebook states that the +1 Attack has already been added. Angron would have 5 attacks otherwise. Though, to honest I have no idea if he benefits from having a pistol. If you're right about this (which I actually hope you are) then that would be very neat and I would be more than willing to concede.

Yeah, I think we're generally in agreeance.

I also missed that the extra attack was already included. He'd be that right amount better with that extra attack (7 with the weapons, maybe 8 with the pistol), but I'm unsure about the pistol. I mean, he has matching melee weapons, and a pistol. I don't know, maybe something for YMDC.

I guess Angron is a touch disappointing.

 Blacksails wrote:
Yeah, I think we're generally in agreeance.

I also missed that the extra attack was already included. He'd be that right amount better with that extra attack (7 with the weapons, maybe 8 with the pistol), but I'm unsure about the pistol. I mean, he has matching melee weapons, and a pistol. I don't know, maybe something for YMDC.

I guess Angron is a touch disappointing.

Honestly, I think that even just 1 extra attack would help a ton against most of the Primarchs. I'll definitely bring up the Pistol issue because I looked it up after you suggested it and there is very little consensus. Seems like some people don't mind him having 7 attacks since he's a little lackluster in comparison. Thanks for bringing that up though, I would have never even thought of it!

Of course, like with everything 40k (or 30k) related, everything changes once we get the points costs and I get a look at the book! Ferrus seems like he should be at the very -least- 450 because of the benefits he grants and his super tough shell.

Lorgar will be around 360 if not cheaper, and I suspect that Konrad will be 410 and Vulkan will be around 425.

Yeah, I'm personally leaning towards the pistol giving him an extra attack, but I'm not sure how the two CC weapons as one profile interact with a pistol especially if an extra attack is already granted from the twin CC weapons. Too lazy to read through the relevant section of the rule book.

The costs might help out a little. Also, Kurze and Vulkan don't have their wounds listed in the leak above either.