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 Manfred von Drakken wrote:
You want killy? Witch Elves accompanied by a Death Hag with Witchbrew riding a Cauldron. Each regular Witch gets 4 attacks with ASF and I6, poison, and reroll ALL failed 'to wound' rolls. 15 Witches (5x3) with the Cauldron joined on the side made VERY short work of some Saurus recently. Out of 26 attacks just from the unit, I was averaging one miss a turn and about 13 wounds (before saves).

The Cauldron is damn expensive now, but ohhhh boy... O.O

The cauldon has to be placed in the center of the unit.
You'll want the razor banner too.

It's absolutely brutal.

-Matt

 Manfred von Drakken wrote:
You want killy? Witch Elves accompanied by a Death Hag with Witchbrew riding a Cauldron. Each regular Witch gets 4 attacks with ASF and I6, poison, and reroll ALL failed 'to wound' rolls. 15 Witches (5x3) with the Cauldron joined on the side made VERY short work of some Saurus recently. Out of 26 attacks just from the unit, I was averaging one miss a turn and about 13 wounds (before saves).

The Cauldron is damn expensive now, but ohhhh boy... O.O

I had to fight that the other night. It was stupid.

With the ward save on them I couldn't do enough damage to with with magic or shooting to stop it getting to me and with ASF in combat there was nothing I could do since all of my stuff died before it got to strike.

 jonolikespie wrote:

 Manfred von Drakken wrote:
You want killy? Witch Elves accompanied by a Death Hag with Witchbrew riding a Cauldron. Each regular Witch gets 4 attacks with ASF and I6, poison, and reroll ALL failed 'to wound' rolls. 15 Witches (5x3) with the Cauldron joined on the side made VERY short work of some Saurus recently. Out of 26 attacks just from the unit, I was averaging one miss a turn and about 13 wounds (before saves).

The Cauldron is damn expensive now, but ohhhh boy... O.O

I had to fight that the other night. It was stupid.

With the ward save on them I couldn't do enough damage to with with magic or shooting to stop it getting to me and with ASF in combat there was nothing I could do since all of my stuff died before it got to strike.

Could you use Lore of Life's "Dweller" or a similar spell to get rid of this deathstar?

Otherwise sounds pretty terrible--gotta avoid getting into combat with it, basically.

 pantheralegionnaire wrote:

 jonolikespie wrote:

 Manfred von Drakken wrote:
You want killy? Witch Elves accompanied by a Death Hag with Witchbrew riding a Cauldron. Each regular Witch gets 4 attacks with ASF and I6, poison, and reroll ALL failed 'to wound' rolls. 15 Witches (5x3) with the Cauldron joined on the side made VERY short work of some Saurus recently. Out of 26 attacks just from the unit, I was averaging one miss a turn and about 13 wounds (before saves).

The Cauldron is damn expensive now, but ohhhh boy... O.O

I had to fight that the other night. It was stupid.

With the ward save on them I couldn't do enough damage to with with magic or shooting to stop it getting to me and with ASF in combat there was nothing I could do since all of my stuff died before it got to strike.

Could you use Lore of Life's "Dweller" or a similar spell to get rid of this deathstar?

Otherwise sounds pretty terrible--gotta avoid getting into combat with it, basically.

I play VCs, no life.

I did have Death and Pit of Shades but slippery elvsies are I5 and the witches had a 5+ ward so I didn't see the point in trying.

Remember that those type of spells ignore ALL saves not just armor.

.... Huh.

Remember that they have Ld9 with the Death Hag and that the witchbrew gets them down to Ld 6 when refraining to charge
it's also a very large unit that HAS to overrun
redirecting them for the whole game isn't usually too hard, either through double flee (if you have a very large amount of chaff) or through getting murdered and having them overrun away from your lines
I didn't have to face them with a CC focused army so far, but I don't see them as too problematic

Let's say you play WoC or VC with a big central combat block ...
use doggies that you put right against one of the front corners of the Wyches unit at a right angle
The Wyches will either lose a turn doing nothing (and will still be stuck) or charge by wheeling 90 degrees
They will then overrun after having butchered 5 dogs
You then charge them in the flank with a solid unit
Wyches break and flee

Of course you need to keep your chaff alive to do that, which is not easy against a smart DE player, but I saw a lot of them going for the big toys and forgetting about RBT (excellent chaff clearer) and Dark Riders (one of the best chaff in the game)

Unfortunately the guy I was playing (and will be playing again at a tourney tomorrow) brought 2 RBTs and a unit of dark riders but with manfred and raise dead I had some success in throwing oddly angled roadbumps in front of them.

The thing about the cauldron"star" is that it fails vs most elf core. The witches NEED to strike first. The ASF corpse cart ping will ruin them, for example. And crypt horrors are effectively a brick wall for witches. And most elf core.

Played my first game with the new book finally. Snap judgement.... color me unimpressed.

Hydras probably needed a nerf, but they are absolutely terrible now AND got a points increase. So sad
Unkillable dreadlord needed a nerf too, but there is nothing to replace it now....
I hate the new Power of Darkness spell and rules for Sac Dagger make it not worth taking.

I disagree, Hydra is decent for its price, it still kills a lot, it's just not stupidly good as it was
You can still have very good Dreadlords, just not "better than everyone else" (I mean, you got ASF included automatically with high Init and re-rolling 1s to wound)
Power of Darkness is slightly dangerous but Magic Resistance is avaialble through the Ring (that's very good)
Sac Dagger is like the Hydra, instead of ultimate filth, it's a decent cheap item

And for a ridiculously low amount of points now, you can have 4 RBT that don't count towards your Rare, the Dark Riders and Warlocks are simply brilliant, you have access to 9 lores of Magic ...
It's much more balanced and the DE armies are starting to look different from each other (which is always good)

 thedarkavenger wrote:
The thing about the cauldron"star" is that it fails vs most elf core. The witches NEED to strike first. The ASF corpse cart ping will ruin them, for example. And crypt horrors are effectively a brick wall for witches. And most elf core.

Witch Elves are still I6. Having ASF cancel out will cost rerolls to hit, but sheer volume should make up for that. Also still getting rerolls to wound thanks to the Cauldron, not to mention poison. Even High Elf Core is still boned thanks to Hatred.

 Manfred von Drakken wrote:

 thedarkavenger wrote:
The thing about the cauldron"star" is that it fails vs most elf core. The witches NEED to strike first. The ASF corpse cart ping will ruin them, for example. And crypt horrors are effectively a brick wall for witches. And most elf core.

Witch Elves are still I6. Having ASF cancel out will cost rerolls to hit, but sheer volume should make up for that. Also still getting rerolls to wound thanks to the Cauldron, not to mention poison. Even High Elf Core is still boned thanks to Hatred.

Hag + Cauldron + witch elves is pretty expensive. If your opponent just goes with mega archer block, said archer block will shoot the witches dead before they see combat.

-Matt

 Manfred von Drakken wrote:

 thedarkavenger wrote:
The thing about the cauldron"star" is that it fails vs most elf core. The witches NEED to strike first. The ASF corpse cart ping will ruin them, for example. And crypt horrors are effectively a brick wall for witches. And most elf core.

Witch Elves are still I6. Having ASF cancel out will cost rerolls to hit, but sheer volume should make up for that. Also still getting rerolls to wound thanks to the Cauldron, not to mention poison. Even High Elf Core is still boned thanks to Hatred.

Also I may be assuming to much but ASF when it cancels it means you strike at the same time. So yes the rerolls from hatred and the cauldron will allow you to put out a ton of wounds but i will be hitting back.

The high initiative is definitely a plus, but low toughness is still a major drawback if you can put some hurt on them with templates. With certain armies (VC for example) this is going to be hard with no real shooting units, though. The "redirect" with chaff method is one I am working on with my WoC so getting that deathstar out of position might allow you to get into a flanking position, disorder it, and avoid all those supporting attacks.

Lore of Death might also work if you can use short-range spells to assassinate characters or cause a Ld test with negative modifiers--this would negate their "steadfast"--getting that unkillable unit to flee would be awesome.

The trick with the witch star is that it hits like a truck, but can't be hit back. Anything that can tank that initial blow is golden.

So just put some chaff in front of it, then hit it in the flank with something armoured or really high T.

Also remember that the cauldron can't make way, and that the hag doesn't get a Look Out Sir and her only protection is a 5++. She's just begging to have a stone dropped on her head.

Malekith seems usable now in lower point games.

PirateRobotNinjaofDeath wrote:
The trick with the witch star is that it hits like a truck, but can't be hit back. Anything that can tank that initial blow is golden.

So just put some chaff in front of it, then hit it in the flank with something armoured or really high T.

Also remember that the cauldron can't make way, and that the hag doesn't get a Look Out Sir and her only protection is a 5++. She's just begging to have a stone dropped on her head.

The "really high T" point is pretty moot since they have poison with rerolls. They can put a ton of wounds on ANYTHING. The armor is what you need, not Toughness.

Hag can take magic weapons so obsidian blade can be taken.

What's everyones view on the Bloodwrack Shrine?

Is it just me, or is Kharbidyss pretty bad?

 Sasori wrote:
What's everyones view on the Bloodwrack Shrine?
Is it just me, or is Kharbidyss pretty bad?

Kharbidyss bad? It's a S7 160 point monster that forces the opponent to re-roll successful Ld tests. It's really good actually.
The shrine seems ok if you need the +1 Ld and build for the -1Ld.
I think of it like a Bastiladon, you need to be planning on using most of the special rules to make it worthwhile.

-Matt

 Sasori wrote:
What's everyones view on the Bloodwrack Shrine?

Is it just me, or is Kharbidyss pretty bad?

1. On the Bloodwrack shrine its just not good enough. Neither is the medusa. killing blow as a shooting attack is meh without sniper. Now if the medusa had sniper then we would be cooking with gas and it would be horrifically overpowered.

2. The Kharbidyss is awesome and very cheap for what it does ohh and -4 to armor to begin with means it takes care of some of the well armored infantry and monsters in the game,

I wonder about a blood wrack shrine with witches.
The +1 LD would be really useful, the ignore armor save hits would really help out, and the -1Ld for the enemies should help break steadfast.

I'd be curious to see if it works better than a cauldron.
Of course, with my luck, the D6 S3 hits will kill it turn 1....


-Matt

I think the Medusa will be quite useful in smaller games when points are being spent on a large selection of core choices, but I will probably drop her if I need to. Great cheapish filler unit though.

The Kharbidyss is going to be very important for taking out things like blood/skull crushers, Demigryph knights, and other big monsters. Looking forward to painting one up!

 spyguyyoda wrote:

PirateRobotNinjaofDeath wrote:
The trick with the witch star is that it hits like a truck, but can't be hit back. Anything that can tank that initial blow is golden.

So just put some chaff in front of it, then hit it in the flank with something armoured or really high T.

Also remember that the cauldron can't make way, and that the hag doesn't get a Look Out Sir and her only protection is a 5++. She's just begging to have a stone dropped on her head.

The "really high T" point is pretty moot since they have poison with rerolls. They can put a ton of wounds on ANYTHING. The armor is what you need, not Toughness.

Hit them in the flank and you'll be taking fewer attacks, meaning that if your monster has SOME sort of save you'll probably survive long enough to strike. Against the Chimera, for instance, you're going to have to do 12 AP wounds to kill the thing on average. Without supporting attacks you're going to struggle to get that, even with the cauldron's rerolls

Not as good protection as armour, certainly, but any time your opponent is relying on rolling 6's you're probably doing alright. Even if he gets 4 chances to roll those 6s

PirateRobotNinjaofDeath wrote:

 spyguyyoda wrote:

PirateRobotNinjaofDeath wrote:
The trick with the witch star is that it hits like a truck, but can't be hit back. Anything that can tank that initial blow is golden.

So just put some chaff in front of it, then hit it in the flank with something armoured or really high T.

Also remember that the cauldron can't make way, and that the hag doesn't get a Look Out Sir and her only protection is a 5++. She's just begging to have a stone dropped on her head.

The "really high T" point is pretty moot since they have poison with rerolls. They can put a ton of wounds on ANYTHING. The armor is what you need, not Toughness.

Hit them in the flank and you'll be taking fewer attacks, meaning that if your monster has SOME sort of save you'll probably survive long enough to strike. Against the Chimera, for instance, you're going to have to do 12 AP wounds to kill the thing on average. Without supporting attacks you're going to struggle to get that, even with the cauldron's rerolls

Not as good protection as armour, certainly, but any time your opponent is relying on rolling 6's you're probably doing alright. Even if he gets 4 chances to roll those 6s

This is true. I did miss the "in the flank" part of that. However, if I hit a horde of WEs in the flank, I'm still taking 16 attacks. Sure, it's not likely to kill anything T5 or higher, but it could happen. That's what poisoned attacks are for in the first place.

Overall a very solid book with many solid and viable options. I think the army is very scary, WE-star, Executioner-star, of course, I hate any kind of a death star, but they have quite a few of them.

Warlocks and Dark Riders are a fairly interesting addition to the army that really gives them an edge. Their Dark Magic spells are pretty good, especially when you drop the General's LD and BSB from the pesky block of slaves.

Overall a solid book and can be very scary in the right hands... even in the wrong hands these guys can put out a lot of hurt.

Thanks for the views on the Kharibdys. I'm not nearly as tactically savy in fantasy, so I miss the value in a lot of stuff.

I'd like to see some testing on the Bloodwrack,as I think it's a fantastic model. It would be a shame if it doesn't really cut it though!

The bloodwrack is good for bulking up a unit and hiding characters in the back ranks.

I don't think people get how difficult it will be to get flank on the witches as most builds have 4 fast cav units min and 1 or 2 horde execs as well.
As much as you can double flee etc so can the dark elves, if a few rbts get squeezed in say bye bye chaff as well.
The thing with dark elves is the witch elf, exec horde list is only one of about 3 strong builds.

The Kharbidyss looks pretty awesome to me. S7 means you can let it loose on some seriously tough foes and still make them nervous.
Re-rolling Leadership tests is great all-around, but also means that your opponent's tar-pit has something to fear as well.

And the fact that his versatility costs 160pts is pretty amazing.

Feast of Bones (or whatever it's called) is a very odd ability. Not quite sure what they were thinking, there.

Of all the Dark Elf book, what makes me cringe most is their Lore. No other army can cripple their foe's Leadership like that.