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2013/10/02 19:21:53
Subject: Re:Congressional Tea Party talks about the American Government Shutdown: "It's exactly what we wanted!"
Whembly, you're kinda proving my point while apparently not understanding where I'm coming from. Let me be clearer.
I'm giving you my opinion about which side will end up ahead overall in the battle for public opinion. Past history and Obama's bully pulpit are strong points for the Dems. If you believe in the liberal media, that's another. Together, these would in fact suggest that the loudest voice in the land both has a proven script and the aid of a megaphone (and other gear, as your example shows) with which to project his message.
And while the Dems are building their case -- warranted or not -- for this being the fault of extremist Republicans, the GOP has already shown to have an issue with rogue members saying things they shouldn't.
"This is what we wanted!"
I don't work in political communication, but I have a career in marketing communications. I work every day with messages and mediums, sometimes for good products or services, sometimes for bad ones. I don't get to pick -- it's my job, so I have to market it regardless. And I'm telling you now that when I flip into dispassionate work mode and look at the communications landscape surrounding the shutdown, I think it's going to be a very hard road for the GOP if the shutdown drags on. That's not an assessment of who's right or wrong, but an assessment of who's going to come out ahead politically.
The 2014 midterms add some extra heat to the situation. While the Tea Party members might feel secure in their districts -- or simply don't care -- there have to be other Republicans who don't want the shutdown hung around their necks. For all these reasons, I tend to think that the shutdown won't drag on.
I think some of the pettiness designed to try and make the shutdown 'hit harder' is going to backfire.
This one's my favorite, just because it's so awesomely transparent:
The Department of Defense did not issue an official statement about the suspension of service academy sports and did not respond to telephone and email requests for comment.
However, the Naval Academy Superintendent’s Office received the order on Tuesday morning and Scott Strasemeier, associate athletic director for sports information, announced Tuesday night’s men’s soccer game between Navy and Howard had been postponed indefinitely.
“We are also hopeful for a last-minute reprieve,” Gladchuk said. “Right now, we are taking things a half day at a time and holding our breath that the government can bring this thing (the shutdown) to a resolution.”
The Naval Academy Athletic Association is a private organization not funded by the government. Gladchuk said the Air Force-Navy game could be held without any “appropriated funding.” Air Force recently created a similar athletic association that operates using private funds, donations and revenue from intercollegiate contests.
“We could run our entire athletics program and conduct events as we always do without any government funds,” Gladchuk said. “In talking to the Air Force athletic director, their football team could execute the trip without government funding.”
Asked why the Department of Defense was suspending intercollegiate athletic contests if government funds are not required, Gladchuk said he was told it was about “optics.”
“It’s a perception thing. Apparently it doesn’t resonate with all the other government agencies that have been shut down,” Gladchuk said.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/10/02 19:32:33
2013/10/02 20:23:24
Subject: Congressional Tea Party talks about the American Government Shutdown: "It's exactly what we wanted!"
gorgon wrote: Whembly, you're kinda proving my point while apparently not understanding where I'm coming from. Let me be clearer.
Hey... thanks for keeping this civil. Call my gak out if I'm out of line... cool?
I'm giving you my opinion about which side will end up ahead overall in the battle for public opinion. Past history and Obama's bully pulpit are strong points for the Dems. If you believe in the liberal media, that's another. Together, these would in fact suggest that the loudest voice in the land both has a proven script and the aid of a megaphone (and other gear, as your example shows) with which to project his message.
Okay... maybe that in this day and age of social media, et. el. that may be true. But the past, neither party suffered much from the various shutdown.
And while the Dems are building their case -- warranted or not -- for this being the fault of extremist Republicans, the GOP has already shown to have an issue with rogue members saying things they shouldn't.
"This is what we wanted!"
Yeah... I've been on record in this thread that this is a poor strategy for the GOP.
I don't work in political communication, but I have a career in marketing communications. I work every day with messages and mediums, sometimes for good products or services, sometimes for bad ones. I don't get to pick -- it's my job, so I have to market it regardless. And I'm telling you now that when I flip into dispassionate work mode and look at the communications landscape surrounding the shutdown, I think it's going to be a very hard road for the GOP if the shutdown drags on. That's not an assessment of who's right or wrong, but an assessment of who's going to come out ahead politically.
I'm interesting in more of this "dispassionate" analysis... add more if you can.
Because right now... the Dems, imo are losing the messaging battle (for the life of me, I just don't understand it). This whole silly ordeal about the closed parks/monuments and Reid's latest statement on Why Would We Want to Help Just One Child with Cancer? seems to be taking a toll...
Eh... we'll see after that even WH summit meeting.
The 2014 midterms add some extra heat to the situation. While the Tea Party members might feel secure in their districts -- or simply don't care -- there have to be other Republicans who don't want the shutdown hung around their necks. For all these reasons, I tend to think that the shutdown won't drag on.
Because of the gerrymandering crap and usual strong incumbent position... I doubt that anyone is going to pay the "political price". Just my honest opinion.
I think some of the pettiness designed to try and make the shutdown 'hit harder' is going to backfire.
This one's my favorite, just because it's so awesomely transparent:
The Department of Defense did not issue an official statement about the suspension of service academy sports and did not respond to telephone and email requests for comment.
However, the Naval Academy Superintendent’s Office received the order on Tuesday morning and Scott Strasemeier, associate athletic director for sports information, announced Tuesday night’s men’s soccer game between Navy and Howard had been postponed indefinitely.
“We are also hopeful for a last-minute reprieve,” Gladchuk said. “Right now, we are taking things a half day at a time and holding our breath that the government can bring this thing (the shutdown) to a resolution.”
The Naval Academy Athletic Association is a private organization not funded by the government. Gladchuk said the Air Force-Navy game could be held without any “appropriated funding.” Air Force recently created a similar athletic association that operates using private funds, donations and revenue from intercollegiate contests.
“We could run our entire athletics program and conduct events as we always do without any government funds,” Gladchuk said. “In talking to the Air Force athletic director, their football team could execute the trip without government funding.”
Asked why the Department of Defense was suspending intercollegiate athletic contests if government funds are not required, Gladchuk said he was told it was about “optics.”
“It’s a perception thing. Apparently it doesn’t resonate with all the other government agencies that have been shut down,” Gladchuk said.
No football game?
What the hell? That seems awfully petty.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2013/10/02 20:37:04
Live Ork, Be Ork. or D'Ork!
2013/10/03 08:05:34
Subject: Re:Congressional Tea Party talks about the American Government Shutdown: "It's exactly what we wanted!"
I would agree. It's in the mold of the White House deciding to shut down the WWII memorial. We're not going to get the, "Actually, they're shutting down more stuff than they need to just to make it suck more," story from the major outlets, unfortunately, but if they thought that gak was going to work on Navy/Air Force alumni, this administration's either dumber or more indifferent than I thought.
2013/10/03 08:32:24
Subject: Re:Congressional Tea Party talks about the American Government Shutdown: "It's exactly what we wanted!"
There's no pettiness or grand conspiracy required. Just think about how it looks to someone who isn't well informed about the issue: people aren't getting their paychecks, expensive vacations to national parks are ruined, important research is disrupted, but there's still somehow enough money to play football? It's not really that difficult to see how someone could make the decision that annoying a few football fans is a small price to pay to avoid having that public image disaster.
There is no such thing as a hobby without politics. "Leave politics at the door" is itself a political statement, an endorsement of the status quo and an attempt to silence dissenting voices.
2013/10/03 08:40:05
Subject: Re:Congressional Tea Party talks about the American Government Shutdown: "It's exactly what we wanted!"
Peregrine wrote: There's no pettiness or grand conspiracy required. Just think about how it looks to someone who isn't well informed about the issue: people aren't getting their paychecks, expensive vacations to national parks are ruined, important research is disrupted, but there's still somehow enough money to play football? It's not really that difficult to see how someone could make the decision that annoying a few football fans is a small price to pay to avoid having that public image disaster.
That requires admitting that Americans are too stupid to understand the simple eight word statement of, "Service academy football games are not federally funded."
2013/10/03 08:50:42
Subject: Re:Congressional Tea Party talks about the American Government Shutdown: "It's exactly what we wanted!"
Seaward wrote: That requires admitting that Americans are too stupid to understand the simple eight word statement of, "Service academy football games are not federally funded."
It's not about stupidity, it's about communication. Do you honestly think that everyone is going to get the whole message about the precise details of football funding, instead of just hearing someone talking about the game last night? Or hearing a campaign ad next election about how "Obama delayed paychecks to hard-working families while college football was just too important to give up"? It happens over and over again in politics, the fact that an issue might be simple to understand if someone ever hears the unbiased facts doesn't matter when they never do.
And really, it's just a game. Losing a football game, whether it was necessary or not, is probably the least relevant consequence of the shutdown.
There is no such thing as a hobby without politics. "Leave politics at the door" is itself a political statement, an endorsement of the status quo and an attempt to silence dissenting voices.
2013/10/03 08:55:15
Subject: Re:Congressional Tea Party talks about the American Government Shutdown: "It's exactly what we wanted!"
Peregrine wrote: It's not about stupidity, it's about communication. Do you honestly think that everyone is going to get the whole message about the precise details of football funding, instead of just hearing someone talking about the game last night? Or hearing a campaign ad next election about how "Obama delayed paychecks to hard-working families while college football was just too important to give up"? It happens over and over again in politics, the fact that an issue might be simple to understand if someone ever hears the unbiased facts doesn't matter when they never do.
And really, it's just a game. Losing a football game, whether it was necessary or not, is probably the least relevant consequence of the shutdown.
It probably is the least relevant. It's also one of the many completely unnecessary consequences of trying to make the shutdown hit harder.
2013/10/03 09:04:19
Subject: Congressional Tea Party talks about the American Government Shutdown: "It's exactly what we wanted!"
whembly wrote: So... what about the Employer Mandate delay.
I've explained this several times now, and so have many other posters. The employer mandate is peripheral to the ACA structure, it could be delayed indefinitely, and even cut, and the rest of the system would carry on just fine. That is not true of the individual mandate - because with insurers no longer able to reject people with a pre-existing condition, people are free to simply not purchase insurance until they get sick... unless you have a mandate that people get insurance.
Can you please read this, and either challenge it or stop asking that question over and over again?
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/10/03 09:05:11
“We may observe that the government in a civilized country is much more expensive than in a barbarous one; and when we say that one government is more expensive than another, it is the same as if we said that that one country is farther advanced in improvement than another. To say that the government is expensive and the people not oppressed is to say that the people are rich.”
Adam Smith, who must have been some kind of leftie or something.
2013/10/03 09:06:00
Subject: Re:Congressional Tea Party talks about the American Government Shutdown: "It's exactly what we wanted!"
Seaward wrote: It probably is the least relevant. It's also one of the many completely unnecessary consequences of trying to make the shutdown hit harder.
How did you manage to quote a post providing an explanation other than "let's make the shutdown hit harder" for why someone might cancel a football game and reply to it with "it's just to make the shutdown hit harder"?
There is no such thing as a hobby without politics. "Leave politics at the door" is itself a political statement, an endorsement of the status quo and an attempt to silence dissenting voices.
2013/10/03 09:26:12
Subject: Re:Congressional Tea Party talks about the American Government Shutdown: "It's exactly what we wanted!"
Peregrine wrote: How did you manage to quote a post providing an explanation other than "let's make the shutdown hit harder" for why someone might cancel a football game and reply to it with "it's just to make the shutdown hit harder"?
By not granting the premise that, despite plenty of electoral evidence to the contrary, Americans in general aren't stupid enough to buy your explanation.
2013/10/03 09:30:30
Subject: Re:Congressional Tea Party talks about the American Government Shutdown: "It's exactly what we wanted!"
Peregrine wrote: How did you manage to quote a post providing an explanation other than "let's make the shutdown hit harder" for why someone might cancel a football game and reply to it with "it's just to make the shutdown hit harder"?
By not granting the premise that, despite plenty of electoral evidence to the contrary, Americans in general aren't stupid enough to buy your explanation.
Like "let's shut down the government to stop ObamaCare even though the shut-down doesn't do anything to stop ObamaCare"?
2013/10/03 09:41:25
Subject: Re:Congressional Tea Party talks about the American Government Shutdown: "It's exactly what we wanted!"
d-usa wrote: Like "let's shut down the government to stop ObamaCare even though the shut-down doesn't do anything to stop ObamaCare"?
I think most Americans recognize that the shutdown occurred because Republicans don't like Obamacare, yeah.
Was that your question?
There were people out there who thought that shutting down the government would stop ObamaCare, but they wouldn't exist because you don't think that there are stupid Americans who would fall for political lies like that.
Just like there wouldn't be ads talking about how Obama has signed more Executive Orders than anybody else, because Americans wouldn't be stupid enough to believe that.
Just like there wouldn't be ads talking about how Obama has taken more vacation than any president, because Americans wouldn't be stupid enough to believe that.
Just like there wouldn't be ads talking about "how we don't really know where he was born", because Americans would't be stupid enough to believe that.
But yes, there would be ads talking about how "Obama let kids go without food, but wouldn't even cancel a football game (probably watched it on vacation while signing executive orders)" because there are stupid Americans who would believe it.
2013/10/03 09:58:08
Subject: Re:Congressional Tea Party talks about the American Government Shutdown: "It's exactly what we wanted!"
d-usa wrote: But yes, there would be ads talking about how "Obama let kids go without food, but wouldn't even cancel a football game (probably watched it on vacation while signing executive orders)" because there are stupid Americans who would believe it.
Interesting. So you're agreeing that the game doesn't actually need to be shut down, but because shutting it down looks better for Obama and the Democrats politically, they're going to go ahead and do it.
2013/10/03 10:05:42
Subject: Congressional Tea Party talks about the American Government Shutdown: "It's exactly what we wanted!"
d-usa wrote: If your reading comprehension is so bad that you really think that is what I said, then it really explains the majority of your posts.
This is what you said.
d-usa wrote: But yes, there would be ads talking about how "Obama let kids go without food, but wouldn't even cancel a football game (probably watched it on vacation while signing executive orders)" because there are stupid Americans who would believe it.
We've covered that the game doesn't actually need to be shut down under the shutdown rules, because it doesn't use federally appropriated funds. So it doesn't need to be shut down for that reason; if you're saying it doesn't need to be shut down because it might be used against Obama in the future - you know, exactly what you said above and are now trying to deny having said - then why does it need to be shut down?
Edit: Outstanding news (and moot point) now, though. The games are on.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/10/03 10:30:30
2013/10/03 10:35:34
Subject: Congressional Tea Party talks about the American Government Shutdown: "It's exactly what we wanted!"
Because 800,000 people without a job see a "federal college football game" while they are without a job and they will think it's BS.
People without WIC will see a "federal college football game" while they are not buying groceries and they will think it's BS.
People who had to cancel their vacations because of the shutdown will see a "federal college football game" and think it's BS.
Shutting it down is a lot easier than trying to explain over and over again about how exactly these games are funded and how travel is covered, etc etc etc.
But instead you think that Obama is sitting in his Oval Office going "hahahaha, try to take away my ObamaCare? I take away your ball! HAHAHAHAHHA"
Obama is screwed either way. If he shuts the game down, he looks bad for shutting it down. If he doesn't shut the game down, people will spin it later and he still looks bad. There is no way for Obama to look good here.
Holding the game will piss people off now (people who are furloughed as well as people who are affected by the shutdown, even though they shouldn't be pissed off by this game) and it might piss people off later when "he played the game but let kids go hungry" attack ads hit the air.
Canceling the game will piss people off now (people who know that it is funded privately) and it will piss people off later when "the Democrats played politics with the shutdown" attack ads hit the air.
Neither option makes him look good now. Neither option looks better for Obama or the Democrats later.
2013/10/03 10:57:38
Subject: Re:Congressional Tea Party talks about the American Government Shutdown: "It's exactly what we wanted!"
WASHINGTON — President Barack Obama and congressional leaders struggled Wednesday to find a path to ending the shutdown that closed much of the federal government for a second day and threatened to last far longer.
The Republican-run House has rejected an effort by Democrats to force a quick end to the partial government shutdown. By a 227-197 vote Wednesday, the House rejected a move by Democrats aimed at forcing the House to vote on immediately reopening the government without clamping any restrictions on President Barack Obama's health care law.
Obama and the four leaders of the House of Representatives and the Senate met at the White House for nearly 90 minutes, their first meeting since before the government shutdown. Little progress was apparent and both sides emerged offering the pointed, partisan complaints they had been making through days of the standoff.
“The president reiterated one more time tonight that he will not negotiate,” said House Speaker John Boehner, R-Ohio, in terse remarks to reporters after the session.
Senate Minority Leader Mitch McConnell, R-Ky., called the meeting “unproductive” and said he was “disappointed” that Obama did not encourage Democrats to appoint a small group of negotiators to hash out a compromise with Republicans, as they have requested.
Democrats were just as somber but more expansive. Senate Majority Leader Harry Reid, D-Nev., insisted Boehner only wants to negotiate keeping the government open for a few weeks, rather than talk about a longer term budget. “We’re through playing these little games. It’s all focused on Obamacare, that’s all it’s about,” said Reid, speaking about Republicans’ insistence the Affordable Care Act be diluted or delayed.
The White House meeting also included Vice President Joe Biden and Treasury Secretary Jack Lew and featured a presentation about the dangers of default – the nation is expected to exhaust its borrowing authority in two weeks. “We should take the debt ceiling debate off the table,” insisted House Democratic leader Nancy Pelosi of California.
Some Republicans are expected to craft a budget package that could reopen the government while increasing the debt limit.
Even before the leaders arrived at the White House, Obama’s aides made clear that the president would not negotiate until after Republicans agreed to reopen the government at current spending levels.
“He’s not going to engage in that kind of negotiation because he does not want to hold – or have held the openness of the government, the functioning of the government, or the world and American economy hostage to a series of demands,” said White House Press Secretary Jay Carney.
The impasse has caused the first government shutdown in 17 years, with no end in sight. With the debt limit needing an increase by Oct. 17, Capitol lawmakers have suggested the budget and debt limit talks be merged. But Obama has said repeatedly Congress should raise the debt ceiling, and that he will not negotiate on the issue.
Reid offered one way forward, saying he was willing to engage in negotiations over a long-term budget plan if Boehner allowed the House of Representatives to vote on a government funding plan with no strings.
Reid and Boehner spoke earlier Wednesday, and Reid described the conversation as “cordial.” Boehner, though, was unenthusiastic about Reid’s idea, and hours later, House Republicans gathered on the Capitol steps to protest the closing of the World War II Memorial on the National Mall.
House Republicans, who control that chamber, also continued their futile effort to open parts of the government.
They spent the day debating bills to fund the National Park Service, the National Guard, the National Institutes of Health, the Department of Veterans Affairs and the District of Columbia, knowing they’d go nowhere in the Democratic-led Senate.
Obama remained opposed to the House’s piecemeal approach to funding the government, even though the president signed a bill into law earlier this week that would pay U.S. troops around the globe during the shutdown.
While the rhetoric sizzled, leaders were making behind-the-scenes bids to find common ground. Reid sent Boehner a one-page letter recalling how he backed President George W. Bush 11 years ago when Bush sought authority to invade Iraq.
“I could have taken the steps that you are taking now to block government funding in order to gain leverage to end the war,” Reid told Boehner. “But I did not do that. I felt it would have been devastating to America.”
Put the “clean” budget, funding the federal government temporarily, to a House vote, Reid said, and “I commit to name conferees to a budget conference as soon as the government reopens.”
Such a conference, or negotiation, would include top congressional budget-writers, who would try to work out a longer-term spending and tax plan.
Boehner’s camp had an icy response. “Offering to negotiate only after Democrats get everything they want is not much of an offer,” said spokesman Michael Steel.
Carney said Obama remains willing to negotiate on the budget and the health care law but not until Republicans agree to reopen the government and pay its bills with the higher debt ceiling.
“Today’s meeting is about the need to open the government, and the need to ensure that we do not default,” he said.
“And the president’s made clear that he will – that he is happy and willing, as he has been all year round, all year long, to engage in serious conversations and negotiations with Republican lawmakers who want to find common ground on our budget challenges – absolutely willing to,” Carney said. “What he is not willing to do is negotiate under the threat of default or under the threat of continuing to shut down the government.”
Obama met with more than a dozen Wall Street bankers, who warned of the consequences of the shutdown and the potential failure to raise the debt ceiling next month.
“There’s a consensus that we shouldn’t do anything that hurts this recovery that’s a little bit shallow, not very well established and is quite vulnerable,” Lloyd Blankfein, chairman and CEO of Goldman Sachs, said after the meeting. “The shutdown of the government and particularly a failure to raise the debt ceiling would accomplish that.”
Earlier in the day, Obama canceled two of four stops on an upcoming trip to Asia to return to Washington because of the government shutdown.
The White House announced that Obama called Malaysia Prime Minister Datuk Seri Najib Razak and Philippines President Benigno Aquino on Tuesday night to deliver the news.
The White House hasn’t yet canceled the rest of the trip, with Obama scheduled to leave Washington Saturday night for Asia summits in Indonesia and Brunei.
Because right now... the Dems, imo are losing the messaging battle (for the life of me, I just don't understand it). This whole silly ordeal about the closed parks/monuments and Reid's latest statement on Why Would We Want to Help Just One Child with Cancer? seems to be taking a toll...
...
...
Since you are a right winger, you disapprove of the Democrats. Do you think it is possible that your perception that they are losing the PR battle is caused by your personal bias? AFAIK, the opinion poll show a 3:1 advantage for the Democrats on the issue. If that starts to change, there is independent evidence to support your opinion.
I think some of the pettiness designed to try and make the shutdown 'hit harder' is going to backfire.
This one's my favorite, just because it's so awesomely transparent:
...
...
Asked why the Department of Defense was suspending intercollegiate athletic contests if government funds are not required, Gladchuk said he was told it was about “optics.”
“It’s a perception thing. Apparently it doesn’t resonate with all the other government agencies that have been shut down,” Gladchuk said.
No football game?
What the hell? That seems awfully petty.
That’s one view. Another one is that the government would look stupid to run amateur athletic competitions when there is a crisis in public services. Lack of proper attention to priorities.
Kilkrazy wrote: That’s one view. Another one is that the government would look stupid to run amateur athletic competitions when there is a crisis in public services. Lack of proper attention to priorities.
I suppose it's a good thing the government doesn't fund them, then, since they're going forward.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/10/03 12:01:20
2013/10/03 12:04:32
Subject: Congressional Tea Party talks about the American Government Shutdown: "It's exactly what we wanted!"
Someone, News Media, jumped the gun on cancelation of Army-Navy game being canceled due to shutdown. Someone, News Media, didn't know they were not federally funded. Someone, Naval Academy, pointed out that the games were indeed not effected by the shutdown due to them not receiving federal funds for the games. Someone, mainly you all, are now caught up with that piece of info. Its like someone, Fox News, mention that the military was only getting paid in Afghanistan. Someone, News Media, neglected to say that some military posts went into DONZA's and pretty much furlough the civilian workforce being JBLM current status as now.
Proud Member of the Infidels of OIF/OEF
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Warning: Stupid Allergy
Once you pull the pin, Mr. Grenade is no longer your friend
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2013/10/03 12:18:44
Subject: Congressional Tea Party talks about the American Government Shutdown: "It's exactly what we wanted!"
DONSA =Division Off No Schedule Activity (yes typo above)
JBLM = Joint Base Lewis McChord
Proud Member of the Infidels of OIF/OEF
No longer defending the US Military or US Gov't. Just going to ""**feed into your fears**"" with Duffel Blog Did not fight my way up on top the food chain to become a Vegan...
Warning: Stupid Allergy
Once you pull the pin, Mr. Grenade is no longer your friend
DE 6700
Harlequin 2500
RIP Muhammad Ali.
Jihadin, Scorched Earth 791. Leader of the Pork Eating Crusader. Alpha
2013/10/03 12:30:45
Subject: Congressional Tea Party talks about the American Government Shutdown: "It's exactly what we wanted!"
Kilkrazy wrote: The point of your earlier post was that they weren't going forward.
Has the situation changed?
The athletic directors were told to stop plans for the games when the shutdown occurred, with a final decision on Thursday. Looks like they decided they didn't need to shut down the non-federally funded games after all.
2013/10/03 15:49:54
Subject: Re:Congressional Tea Party talks about the American Government Shutdown: "It's exactly what we wanted!"
Because right now... the Dems, imo are losing the messaging battle (for the life of me, I just don't understand it). This whole silly ordeal about the closed parks/monuments and Reid's latest statement on Why Would We Want to Help Just One Child with Cancer? seems to be taking a toll...
...
...
Since you are a right winger, you disapprove of the Democrats..
So, my dispproval of the current democrats makes me a right winger? o.O
Do you think it is possible that your perception that they are losing the PR battle is caused by your personal bias? .
Sure... it's possible.
AFAIK, the opinion poll show a 3:1 advantage for the Democrats on the issue. If that starts to change, there is independent evidence to support your opinion.
Source on that please? the most I've found was that there's 10% gap between the two... not, 3:1.
Live Ork, Be Ork. or D'Ork!
2013/10/04 15:19:42
Subject: Re:Congressional Tea Party talks about the American Government Shutdown: "It's exactly what we wanted!"
