Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you:
No adverts like this in the forums anymore.
Times and dates in your local timezone.
Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance.
Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely.
Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net.
If you are already a member then feel free to login now.
2013/10/08 03:27:29
Subject: Congressional Tea Party talks about the American Government Shutdown: "It's exactly what we wanted!"
djones520 wrote: Next year Bachmann will retire and be quickly forgotten. No thought needs to be given to the drivel that pours from her mouth.
Are you kidding?
It'll be non-stop hilarity from the Bachman Turner Overdrive Power Hour on Fox.
No, it won't. She's going to want to lay low because she is under investigation, and it's in her best interests to be quiet and hope it blows over. The Ethics Committe/FEC one will die when she leaves office if it bears no fruit by then, but the FBI one will almost certainly continue regardless if she's in office or not.
lord_blackfang wrote: Respect to the guy who subscribed just to post a massive ASCII dong in the chat and immediately get banned.
Flinty wrote: The benefit of slate is that its.actually a.rock with rock like properties. The downside is that it's a rock
2013/10/08 04:19:53
Subject: Re:Congressional Tea Party talks about the American Government Shutdown: "It's exactly what we wanted!"
So, does that mean if it passed, they'd get paid for work not done? Essentially a forced paid vacation?
As far as I can tell, no one has clarified, but it is assumed they will be paid for lost time. Not sure if this will be full pay or not, just they will be paid.
Desert Hunters of Vior'la The Purge Iron Hands Adepts of Pestilence Tallaran Desert Raiders Grey Knight Teleport Assault Force
Lt. Coldfire wrote:Seems to me that you should be refereeing and handing out red cards--like a boss.
So, does that mean if it passed, they'd get paid for work not done? Essentially a forced paid vacation?
As far as I can tell, no one has clarified, but it is assumed they will be paid for lost time. Not sure if this will be full pay or not, just they will be paid.
Okay... cool.
I think they should be paid... it isn't their fault that they're shutdown.
he CEO of credit rating agency Moody’s ruled out the chance of a U.S. government default, even if an agreement over raising the debt ceiling is not achieved by mid-October. …
“It is extremely unlikely that the Treasury is not going to continue to pay on those securities,” Moody’s CEO Raymond McDaniel said in an interview with CNBC.
“Hopefully it is unlikely that we go past October 17 and fail to raise the debt ceiling, but even if that does happen, then we think that the U.S. Treasury is still going to pay on those Treasury securities,” he added.
The Moody's guy doesn't disagree with me. The t-bills will be paid, probably. But to do that you'll see other bill payments get delayed/missed, so medical providers, infrastructure providers and all those kind of people, suddenly their most reliable client just became their least reliable. And in fairly short order you'll see cuts to overall spending of about 4% of GDP... that's 4% of total spending just pulled out of the economy at a time when you really need whatever demand you can get.
And that is the best case scenario. And right now there's Republican pundits out there trying to sell a debt default as not that bad a thing... it's fething frightening.
Uh... Seb... let's entertain this scenario...
The only way we default on the debt is if we fail to pay the interest on the public debt. According to the CBO the interest on the debt will approximately be $237 billion for '14.
The expected revenue for '14 is approximated $3.042 trillion...which is a record if I'm not mistaken (yeah for tax hikes!)
So, given if that's true, that'll leave about $2.805 trillion to spend elsewhere. So, as long as the Treasury pays the shareholders first, hence prioritize, $237 billion to the shareholder of our debt... there's no possibility of default.
Right? Tell me where I'm wrong at this point...
Then, you'd start funding the essential parts that government provides: Social Security & Disability – $848 billion Medicare – $505 billion Medicaid – $298 billion Defense – $582 billion Veterans – $83 billion
That accounts for about $2.3 trillion in expenditures... which leaves approx $500 billion for other government functions.
Granted, this is an overly simplistic view, but I would posit that $500 billion-ish for the remain current department may be insufficient. Those that are harping for passing "clean CR" are doing so, because they don't want to face a situation where they'd feel they need to raise taxes to keep existing programs/services nor push for cuts on existing programs. Passing CR, year to year is a fething horrible method to fund the government.
whembly wrote: So, given if that's true, that'll leave about $2.805 trillion to spend elsewhere. So, as long as the Treasury pays the first, hence prioritize, $237 billion to the shareholder of our debt... there's no possibility of default.
Right? Tell me where I'm wrong at this point...
Here, read this. It's short. There are several articles to this effect but I think this one is the clearest.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/10/08 19:35:14
lord_blackfang wrote: Respect to the guy who subscribed just to post a massive ASCII dong in the chat and immediately get banned.
Flinty wrote: The benefit of slate is that its.actually a.rock with rock like properties. The downside is that it's a rock
2013/10/08 21:10:25
Subject: Congressional Tea Party talks about the American Government Shutdown: "It's exactly what we wanted!"
whembly wrote: So, given if that's true, that'll leave about $2.805 trillion to spend elsewhere. So, as long as the Treasury pays the first, hence prioritize, $237 billion to the shareholder of our debt... there's no possibility of default.
Right? Tell me where I'm wrong at this point...
Here, read this. It's short. There are several articles to this effect but I think this one is the clearest.
And this is probably the only reason why it's a bad idea:
...that on a technical level, the systems "are designed to make each payment in the order it comes due." Of course systems could always be changed. But look at all the problems Health and Human Services is having in getting the Affordable Care Act computer systems to work. They can't just whip up an entirely new computer system in the next two weeks. (And, of course, given the government shutdown, it would be illegal for them to hire someone to try.)
I don't understand the entire mechanic of how payment is truly disbursed... and if this is true, then it's definitely a compelling argument to raise the debt ceiling and fix this mechanic in the future.
All in all... I think if it comes down to this... no one is sure that it'll be bureaucratically/technically possible to prioritize if desired. And THAT'S what is spookingfolks.
Live Ork, Be Ork. or D'Ork!
2013/10/08 21:14:36
Subject: Congressional Tea Party talks about the American Government Shutdown: "It's exactly what we wanted!"
The effect of an executive that can, at their discretion, direct the Treasury to pay, or not pay, the appropriations voted into law by congress would be substantially more dangerous than even the debt ceiling default, IMO. It would essentially destroy the whole teepee of checks and balances that our government rides on.
That idea is like killing a fly with a hand grenade.
Besides, "the systems can be reprogrammed to allow this in time"? I guess I just don't have as much faith in the competence of our government as you do; but my feeling is if they couldn't get the exchanges working with what, 2 years? of lead time, they're not going to be able to flawless reprogram all of our Treasury systems in less than 2 weeks.
This whole discussion isn't even one we should be having, frankly. There is no "mechanic to fix" because there is no reason to assume that we aren't paying our bills on time, and need to rejigger the whole thing to allow us to hold off paying the cable bill while we rummage in the couch to see what we can come up with.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2013/10/08 21:19:14
lord_blackfang wrote: Respect to the guy who subscribed just to post a massive ASCII dong in the chat and immediately get banned.
Flinty wrote: The benefit of slate is that its.actually a.rock with rock like properties. The downside is that it's a rock
2013/10/08 21:18:34
Subject: Congressional Tea Party talks about the American Government Shutdown: "It's exactly what we wanted!"
The Debt Ceiling is probably one of the best examples of how our system of government is just completely stupid.
Congress passes bills that basically result in them handing the Administration a bunch of bills and saying "you have to pay this now, it's the law" and then has to pass another bill that lets the Administration either raise money to pay the bills mandated by congress or to borrow the money needed to pay the bills that Congress forces the administration to pay.
It's stupid. There is not a single valid reasonable excuse for a debt ceiling to even exist.
2013/10/08 21:21:04
Subject: Congressional Tea Party talks about the American Government Shutdown: "It's exactly what we wanted!"
d-usa wrote: It's stupid. There is not a single valid reasonable excuse for a debt ceiling to even exist.
I agree totally. It's very much akin to you and your roommates deciding to order a pizza, and then when the pizza arrives, arguing about if you should pay for the fething pizza.
lord_blackfang wrote: Respect to the guy who subscribed just to post a massive ASCII dong in the chat and immediately get banned.
Flinty wrote: The benefit of slate is that its.actually a.rock with rock like properties. The downside is that it's a rock
2013/10/08 21:30:48
Subject: Congressional Tea Party talks about the American Government Shutdown: "It's exactly what we wanted!"
d-usa wrote: It's stupid. There is not a single valid reasonable excuse for a debt ceiling to even exist.
I agree totally. It's very much akin to you and your roommates deciding to order a pizza, and then when the pizza arrives, arguing about if you should pay for the fething pizza.
Well... it's supposed to inherently force congress to pass balanced-budgets.
But, since we've been passing CR for last 5 years or so without passing formal budgets, really exacerbates the debt-ceiling limits.
Live Ork, Be Ork. or D'Ork!
2013/10/08 21:32:51
Subject: Re:Congressional Tea Party talks about the American Government Shutdown: "It's exactly what we wanted!"
Ouze wrote: So are you also saying we should simply remove the debt ceiling?
If Congress get their asses together pass a budget via normal appropriations... sure, it's not needed. Especially since the '74 Budget and Impounment Control Act. Since then, it was easier for congress to deliberate spending/taxing.
Live Ork, Be Ork. or D'Ork!
2013/10/08 21:44:13
Subject: Congressional Tea Party talks about the American Government Shutdown: "It's exactly what we wanted!"
But, since we've been passing CR for last 5 years or so without passing formal budgets, really exacerbates the debt-ceiling limits.
Passing CRs vs Budgets doesn't have any impact whatsoever on the debt-ceiling.
It doesn't matter by which process or under what discussions Congress decides to spend money. It doesn't matter if every single person in that entire building agrees to the most wonderful budget ever written in the history of this country, or if a bitter ugly partisan CR passed by a single vote in both houses.
With the debt ceiling Congress spends money without actually giving any money to spend.
2013/10/08 21:52:42
Subject: Congressional Tea Party talks about the American Government Shutdown: "It's exactly what we wanted!"
But, since we've been passing CR for last 5 years or so without passing formal budgets, really exacerbates the debt-ceiling limits.
Passing CRs vs Budgets doesn't have any impact whatsoever on the debt-ceiling.
It doesn't matter by which process or under what discussions Congress decides to spend money. It doesn't matter if every single person in that entire building agrees to the most wonderful budget ever written in the history of this country, or if a bitter ugly partisan CR passed by a single vote in both houses.
With the debt ceiling Congress spends money without actually giving any money to spend.
So why is this guy against it while he was Senator?
Edit: Further more, you need to know the difference between CR and actual budgets.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/10/08 21:55:56
Live Ork, Be Ork. or D'Ork!
2013/10/08 22:04:38
Subject: Re:Congressional Tea Party talks about the American Government Shutdown: "It's exactly what we wanted!"
Edit: Further more, you need to know the difference between CR and actual budgets.
I know the difference, and neither of them make the debt ceiling any less stupid because both authorize spending without any authorization to actually get any money to spend.
2013/10/08 22:32:00
Subject: Congressional Tea Party talks about the American Government Shutdown: "It's exactly what we wanted!"
Edit: Further more, you need to know the difference between CR and actual budgets.
I know the difference, and neither of them make the debt ceiling any less stupid because both authorize spending without any authorization to actually get any money to spend.
What I'm saying is that during the deliberation on crafting budget, if the debt ceiling is close, should prompt the congress critters to adjust accordingly... that is, cut spending or raise the debt ceiling... and, voted on so that everyone is on record.
Remember budgets just set spending priorities for the next year. CR is really a appropriation bill based on the previous year, that sets spending levels on "discretionary spending". (mandatory spending are immune to this...)
What's dumb here is that Congress raised the Debt Ceiling SEVEN times in pass six years and we're going through this again. (and something like 15 times under Bush... yeah, those years GOP were spending like drunken sailors). BOTH parties are using it as a major political issue.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/10/08 23:57:39
Live Ork, Be Ork. or D'Ork!
2013/10/08 22:36:15
Subject: Congressional Tea Party talks about the American Government Shutdown: "It's exactly what we wanted!"
whembly wrote: "Thanks to this hypocrite, the debt has DOUBLED in his 1st term"
Blaming Obama for the debt levels in his first term is not fundamentally different from me farting in an elevator just as the doors open, and as you walk in and we ride it downstairs, remarking that ever since you came in here, it smells awful.
(yes, I know you didn't make that argument, I just really wanted to use that analogy).
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2013/10/08 23:37:02
lord_blackfang wrote: Respect to the guy who subscribed just to post a massive ASCII dong in the chat and immediately get banned.
Flinty wrote: The benefit of slate is that its.actually a.rock with rock like properties. The downside is that it's a rock
2013/10/08 23:48:09
Subject: Congressional Tea Party talks about the American Government Shutdown: "It's exactly what we wanted!"
You gotta remember tho... people are mad at repubs... but when it goes local politics I already see commercials from repubs and democrats in the SAME COMMERCIAL holding hands saying "Hey! Don't blame us, we both wanna open the government! Vote for us! We push to get Virginians working!"
Also, the problem is the people causing this won't lose their seats. So while repubs are in danger, incumbent dems are in just as much danger as pretty much any 'outsider' can beat any incumbent over the head with this.
My Models: Ork Army: Waaagh 'Az-ard - Chibi Dungeon RPG Models! - My Workblog! =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
RULE OF COOL: When converting models, there is only one rule: "The better your model looks, the less people will complain about it."
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
MODELING FOR ADVANTAGE TEST: rigeld2: "Easy test - are you willing to play the model as a stock one? No? MFA."
2013/10/08 23:52:51
Subject: Congressional Tea Party talks about the American Government Shutdown: "It's exactly what we wanted!"
So are you also saying we should simply remove the debt ceiling?
Imagine the thread on that if we did something that stupid?
Proud Member of the Infidels of OIF/OEF
No longer defending the US Military or US Gov't. Just going to ""**feed into your fears**"" with Duffel Blog Did not fight my way up on top the food chain to become a Vegan...
Warning: Stupid Allergy
Once you pull the pin, Mr. Grenade is no longer your friend
DE 6700
Harlequin 2500
RIP Muhammad Ali.
Jihadin, Scorched Earth 791. Leader of the Pork Eating Crusader. Alpha
2013/10/09 01:22:08
Subject: Re:Congressional Tea Party talks about the American Government Shutdown: "It's exactly what we wanted!"
Ouze wrote: So are you also saying we should simply remove the debt ceiling?
No, remove Congress.
And whats wrong with killing a fly with a hand grenade? If it aint broke don't fix it!
-"Wait a minute.....who is that Frazz is talking to in the gallery? Hmmm something is going on here.....Oh.... it seems there is some dispute over video taping of some sort......Frazz is really upset now..........wait a minute......whats he go there.......is it? Can it be?....Frazz has just unleashed his hidden weiner dog from his mini bag, while quoting shakespeares "Let slip the dogs the war!!" GG
-"Don't mind Frazzled. He's just Dakka's crazy old dude locked in the attic. He's harmless. Mostly."
-TBone the Magnificent 1999-2014, Long Live the King!
2013/10/09 02:47:26
Subject: Re:Congressional Tea Party talks about the American Government Shutdown: "It's exactly what we wanted!"
I can nail a camelspider with 9mm with three rounds then you can nail a fly with 240B
edit
It was a big camelspider. Trust me. You would shoot it to while running and screaming like a 8 year old girl.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/10/09 02:49:29
Proud Member of the Infidels of OIF/OEF
No longer defending the US Military or US Gov't. Just going to ""**feed into your fears**"" with Duffel Blog Did not fight my way up on top the food chain to become a Vegan...
Warning: Stupid Allergy
Once you pull the pin, Mr. Grenade is no longer your friend
DE 6700
Harlequin 2500
RIP Muhammad Ali.
Jihadin, Scorched Earth 791. Leader of the Pork Eating Crusader. Alpha
2013/10/09 02:50:20
Subject: Re:Congressional Tea Party talks about the American Government Shutdown: "It's exactly what we wanted!"
President Obama has undergone a change of position regarding raising the debt limit. In a 15 April 2011 Good Morning America interview, President Obama said this of his reasons for doing so:
"I think that it's important to understand the vantage point of a senator versus the vantage point of a president. When you're a senator, traditionally what's happened is, this is always a lousy vote. Nobody likes to be tagged as having increased the debt limit — for the United States by a trillion dollars. As president, you start realizing, you know what, we, we can't play around with this stuff. This is the full faith and credit of the United States. And so that was just an example of a new senator making what is a political vote as opposed to doing what was important for the country. And I'm the first one to acknowledge it."
Desert Hunters of Vior'la 
The Purge 
Iron Hands 
Adepts of Pestilence 
Tallaran Desert Raiders 
Grey Knight Teleport Assault Force
