Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you:
No adverts like this in the forums anymore.
Times and dates in your local timezone.
Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance.
Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely.
Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net.
If you are already a member then feel free to login now.
2013/10/04 11:41:11
Subject: Re:SUV vs Motorcycle. You knew someone was going to start this thread.
hotsauceman1 wrote: My dad was a hells Angel. If there are one group of people you do not mess with it is bikers. I heard some stories of a man being killed with a Pool Cue.
The SUV wasn't purposely trying to hurt the biker, he stopped and normally when not swarmed by a bunch of men who should know better, he would of called 9-11 helped the biker and the normal traffic scene would ensue. However in this scenario the biker GANG yes GANG, assaulted the SUV so when the SUV driver tried to PROTECT his family they followed him and nearly beat him to death. Yes crap happens and he had to run over three bikers, but wouldn't you if you were in the scenario? If he had a sidearm he would of pumped holes in those bikers and the situation would of gotten worse.
This. Bikers are doing this in NY because people are defenseless. Here in PA, we don't have biker gangs. We carry guns, and if people punch our cars and threaten our families, we fething shoot them in the face while their friends watch.
It's good to hear that you wiped out the Pagans in PA. and other biker gangs that were there when I lived in that state, but I don't recall hearing about this mass extinction event on the news.
2013/10/04 12:05:02
Subject: SUV vs Motorcycle. You knew someone was going to start this thread.
Especially as the SUV driver had time to back off.
The point is he didn't. The bike pulled in on him, brake checked him and got it wrong. You don't know how many times they did this before the crash happed, and they were surrounding the RR. He had them on all sides. I would guess they had been doing that for a while. The RR was not tale gateing. The bike was slowing in to him. They look like they were trying to get him to stop, or at least be a pain in the ass.
The bike put himself in that posision. As far as I am concerned the RR is not 100% without blaim and could have handled it better by just locking the doors and driving forward at 10mph, but the biker was responsible for the initial accident.
Your completely ignoring the fact that the bike pulled in, slowed down and brake checked the RR. Your talking about him pulling in safely with is rubbish. He was brake checking the RR and had no intention at all to make a safe pass and carry on.
However, you were accusing people of anti bike bias. People with lots of pro bike bias disagree with you.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/10/04 12:06:59
insaniak wrote: Sometimes, Exterminatus is the only option.
And sometimes, it's just a case of too much scotch combined with too many buttons...
2013/10/04 14:45:07
Subject: Re:SUV vs Motorcycle. You knew someone was going to start this thread.
The Lawrence motorcyclist struck and paralyzed as a desperate SUV driver tried to escape the rage of other bikers in New York on Sunday has a six-page criminal record that began at age 12 with a negligent driving charge and includes jail time for drugs, guns, resisting arrest and other convictions, according to court records.
Edwin Mieses, 32, never got a driver’s license in the Bay State, the Registry of Motor Vehicles said, but he was frequently nabbed behind the wheel, and even sentenced to jail for driving without a license, court records show. Mieses has a pending case out of Lawrence District Court for driving suspended, subsequent offense, said Carrie Kimball Monihan, spokeswoman for the Essex County District Attorney’s Office. Mieses also has 15 guilty findings for criminal offenses including distribution of cocaine, possession of a firearm without a permit, knowingly receiving stolen property, resisting arrest and several motor vehicle violations, court records show.
Mieses was sentenced to jail in 2004 for distribution of cocaine, in 2001 for operating without a license, in 2000 for possession of a firearm, and in 1999 for possession of marijuana, receiving stolen property, destruction of property and attaching plates, according to court records.
I'm the last person to come in defense of an SUV driver. I drive a car, and every accident I've been in (none of which I was at-fault for) have been due to careless SUV drivers. I'm also the last person to start talking in defense of the law, but here, have a read:
http://www.americanmotorcyclist.com/Rights/State-Laws.aspx?stateid=32
As to your reference to the law, while it mentions some of the things you mention below, there is nothing in the link that absolves the SUV driver from his responsibility to immediately back off from the person who just pulled in front of him. Doesn't matter whether the pass was safe or not, He(The SUV driver) had a duty to maintain a safe following distance from the vehicle in front of him. As soon as the bike pulled in he was supposed to fall back to the suggested 2 second following distance. The SUV Driver failed to do this and is thus at fault for rear ending the vehicle in front of him.
Last month a lady in a Jeep Grand Cherokee was in the lane next to me. I was parallel to her driver side window and was able to see here texting as she pulled into my lane. I was right beside her, there was no looking or turn signal. Just her flipping me the bird for honking my horn while diving into the break down lane to avoid being hit.
I'm not saying that the SUV driver was doing the same, just that many other such prior experiences have shown me that such can happen and that I now have a prejudice against Texting drivers.
Again, please to note that I absolutely agree that there were some idiots in the motorcycle group that was involved.
Also note that not all or even most of the group in question were idiots. Out of a large undisciplined group there were only a few that were involved in the assault on the SUV driver.
Judging from the video itself, it looks to me that the first rider is riding a lot closer to the SUV at the side than would be reasonable for anything OTHER than an intimidation and harassment tactic. I agree that the SUV driver could/should have backed off, but by my estimation, the guy was literally TRYING to get hit by the SUV, it's fairly clear to me by the amount of clearance the two vehicles had basically the entire time... But tell me, Captain Avatar, when you were parallel to that Grand Cherokee driver, until she changed lanes without looking, were you as close to her as the guy in the video? No? Well that makes you instantly more responsible than him. As a car driver, and a bicyclist, I basically hate all motorists equally. In the area where I live, motorists in general have a blatant disregard for all speed laws, and a homicidally blatant hatred of what are legally Bike Lanes/ Emergency pull off lanes (most people think that they are turn lanes, and whats worse the local PD do not enforce hardly any traffic laws in the area)
2013/10/04 20:58:14
Subject: Re:SUV vs Motorcycle. You knew someone was going to start this thread.
Now it turns out there was an undercover cop at the scene that didn't do jack crap to stop the situation. You'd think he could have at least called in more cops. Gotta love New York.
Frazzled wrote:
I was literally raised on motorcycles. Some of my youngest memories are being in the pit with mom for Team Frazzled during one of dad's many races. I learned to ride a bicycle and drove my first Bike one day later and was dirt dauber racing at 8. The wife and I getting new bikes this coming summer and only delayed so we could focus on TBone hospice. So understand where I am coming from.
Everything on the video is six ways to sunday wrong. If it were me or the Wife, there would have been way more than then two in the hospital. The moment you try to open a door we'll open up on you.
Ah Frazz, I love your crotchety six-gun humor. While I am as staunch of a supporter of gun ownership rights as you, I would like to point out that statements like the one you posted above only hurt the image of responsible gun owners everywhere.
Comments about blasting away at first responders at an accident scene is truly saddening.
First responders? you might ask. Well, what would you and your riding group do if someone you were riding with was hit by a vehicle?
Would you attack the vehicle or would you rush to aid your fellow rider? Now, I can see there being a few hot heads but most would have been checking on the rider hit by the SUV.
Remember, There was only 20 seconds from the time the bikes stopped and when the driver gunned his vehicle to flee the scene. I'm willing to give him the doubt that he is an easily scared New Yorker that panicked at the site of "a gang" of so many bikers rushing towards the car.
Personally, I don't buy the story that has the riders immediately pulling out switch blades to slash tires (That were still inflated when the drivers sped away). Seriously, the SUV families story comes across like a mix of reefer madness and Brando's The Wild One.
Oh well,
Aside from that, what is your choice of ride? Cruiser, Adventure-Sport, Sport-Bike, Dirt Bike, Sport-Touring or something else? I ride an old Flying Brick myself.
Where you guys are wrong is your rush to absolve the SUV driver of his responsibility.
As with all traffic incidents both parties bear a portion of the responsibility. The debate isn't about that basic principle, the debate is about who is primarily responsible for the whole of this particular incident.
Not quite, the debate is a bit more broad and varied than this and you are placing a restriction that automatically dismisses my point that the entire incident was one bad decision compounded by a next one over and over. The point(s) that I am arguing are:
A) That all involved are to blame and should all have to bear the consequences of their decisions.
B) That actions after the incident should not be used to absolve a responsible party of the part that they played in causing the accident.
C) That many have a bias by how the story was sensationalized
D) That more than a few in this thread have expressed a basic anti-cyclist attitude and seem to be holding motorcyclist to a standard that they would not expect of car drivers
You claim the rider was bullying the SUV but you have no proof other than conjecture as to what you think the rider is doing and a very slanted/sensationalized story.
Of course there is proof. After all, there is a widely available video which depicts the riders actions. Actions to which motive can easily be attached.
.
Bear in mind "proof" does not have to be absolute in order to be proof..
You are conflating a mixture of evidence & conjecture with proof. Proof is, in and of itself absolute. That is why it is proof.
What the video gives is visual evidence that would be up to the jury or judge to decide what were the most likely motives in play....and only after each side has made their case.
This is why I have a problem with how the story was sensationalized and how it presented a one-sided case rather than a more balanced approach.
Do you really want to argue that one driver being an idiot allows a second to not only do the same but to also hit someone else and not be responsible? Especially as the SUV driver had time to back off.
Yes, because that argument is made in court every day. And, when there is evidence which extends beyond a police report, it often works..
Correction, it "rarely" works. The fact that it only works on "rare" occasions is still enough for many people to try and use it as a defense for their mistakes.
The letter of it, but not the way it is administered. Given the available video no one in their right mind would bring criminal charges against the SUV driver because there is no way in hell a conviction could be obtained. And yes, part of that is a bias against motorcyclists. But the bulk of it is that the defense would argue the driver was protecting his family; good luck with that as a prosecutor.
Actually, my stance is based exactly upon how the law is administered.
The exceptions are:
When there is an institutional bias against one of the parties for some reason
And
When you have major media coverage playing judge and jury before the police can even properly investigate. It gets worse when you get cops speculating in on-screen interviews before the investigation has even really began
Especially as the SUV driver had time to back off.
The point is he didn't. The bike pulled in on him, brake checked him and got it wrong. You don't know how many times they did this before the crash happed, and they were surrounding the RR. He had them on all sides. I would guess they had been doing that for a while. The RR was not tale gateing. The bike was slowing in to him. They look like they were trying to get him to stop, or at least be a pain in the ass.
The bike put himself in that posision. As far as I am concerned the RR is not 100% without blaim and could have handled it better by just locking the doors and driving forward at 10mph, but the biker was responsible for the initial accident.
Your completely ignoring the fact that the bike pulled in, slowed down and brake checked the RR. Your talking about him pulling in safely with is rubbish. He was brake checking the RR and had no intention at all to make a safe pass and carry on.
However, you were accusing people of anti bike bias. People with lots of pro bike bias disagree with you.
1) The "point is" that the SUV driver did have time to react. Motorist have a duty to avoid an accident if they can. The SUV driver had, from time stamp 21 when the biker is in his lane and at the front fender to time stamp 26 to hit his brakes. He didn't until time stamp 27 when he was inches from the bike. If he had taken proper evasive action in those 5 usable seconds, the entire incident would have been avoided.
You say that the biker was being a bully, the same could be said for the SUV. He failed to give way to the bike. If it had been a large tractor truck pulling around and cutting in close, do you think he would have made the same choice to stay right on the trucks ass? ....This is the crux of the problem that I see in this video.
2)Thank you for conceding that the SUV driver was not without fault. That was one of my main points. Until I entered the conversation in this thread, everyone was looking at the incident from only one side.
3) You seem to be under the impression that I think that the rider is without fault. You are incorrect and I invite you to re-read my posts. After reviewing the tape on my second post, I have only argued that the SUV driver had time to back off and from a strictly legal point of view that he could be viewed as at fault.
A good lawyer will bring up my earlier question about whether he would have stayed just as close and maintained speed if a trucker had cut in that close. The answer would have to be no, which would show that the SUV driver was being more aggressive with the motorcyclist than he would normally be with other vehicles. If the driver actually answered, "Yes, that he would have maintained speed, even with a trucker", it would hurt his case just as much. It would show that he was as reckless, or more so, than the biker.
4)As to my alluding to anti-motorcyclist sentiments? Could you go back and read the first 2 pages of this thread. There were several mow down the bikers and negative biker stereo-types in just those 2 pages that could be viewed as anti-motorcyclist.
As to other cyclists that disagree with me on this?.. Oh well. We are still allowed to have differing opinions, at least until The prez declares martial law.
Spacemanvic wrote:Boo hoo, innocent biker my rump:
Spoiler:
The Lawrence motorcyclist struck and paralyzed as a desperate SUV driver tried to escape the rage of other bikers in New York on Sunday has a six-page criminal record that began at age 12 with a negligent driving charge and includes jail time for drugs, guns, resisting arrest and other convictions, according to court records.
Edwin Mieses, 32, never got a driver’s license in the Bay State, the Registry of Motor Vehicles said, but he was frequently nabbed behind the wheel, and even sentenced to jail for driving without a license, court records show. Mieses has a pending case out of Lawrence District Court for driving suspended, subsequent offense, said Carrie Kimball Monihan, spokeswoman for the Essex County District Attorney’s Office. Mieses also has 15 guilty findings for criminal offenses including distribution of cocaine, possession of a firearm without a permit, knowingly receiving stolen property, resisting arrest and several motor vehicle violations, court records show.
Mieses was sentenced to jail in 2004 for distribution of cocaine, in 2001 for operating without a license, in 2000 for possession of a firearm, and in 1999 for possession of marijuana, receiving stolen property, destruction of property and attaching plates, according to court records.
So, Your point is that it is ok to run over anyone with a criminal record?
Where is the cut-off? Anybody with a Felony? Class A misdemeanor? Do Juvie records count?
Are we supposed to just barrel down the highway and hope that whoever we hit has an outstanding parking ticket or are we talking David Carradine & Sly Stallone "old school" Death Race 2000
Ensis Ferrae wrote:
Judging from the video itself, it looks to me that the first rider is riding a lot closer to the SUV at the side than would be reasonable for anything OTHER than an intimidation and harassment tactic. I agree that the SUV driver could/should have backed off, but by my estimation, the guy was literally TRYING to get hit by the SUV, it's fairly clear to me by the amount of clearance the two vehicles had basically the entire time... But tell me, Captain Avatar, when you were parallel to that Grand Cherokee driver, until she changed lanes without looking, were you as close to her as the guy in the video? No? Well that makes you instantly more responsible than him. As a car driver, and a bicyclist, I basically hate all motorists equally. In the area where I live, motorists in general have a blatant disregard for all speed laws, and a homicidally blatant hatred of what are legally Bike Lanes/ Emergency pull off lanes (most people think that they are turn lanes, and whats worse the local PD do not enforce hardly any traffic laws in the area)
Thank you for acknowledging that the SUV driver could/should have backed off. Once people accept this then we can begin to examine his driving choices in a manner that is balanced with how we examine the motorcyclists. Basically, once you accept that the SUV driver was also at fault and not just a completely innocent victim, then we can ask why he didn't back off like he would have with a big tractor trailer. Once people understand that then they can begin to see the anti-motorcyclist bias that riders deal with every day that they ride on public roads.
As to the incident with the Jeep Grand Cherokee.
I was in the passing/fast lane on I-45 during evening traffic. Was traveling faster than said jeep who was one lane over. As I was passing her, she accelerated and started to pull into my lane. I always ride paranoid and have constantly evolving escape routes for problems just as this one.
At that moment, my escape route was the break down lane because of traffic density and a tail-gating truck who had just pulled in behind me. Normally, another option would have been to accelerate out of the situation, but the suddenness of her movement and the traffic ahead dictated my diving into the break down lane.
You see, as a rider you try to never ride in blind spots and to not get boxed in, Note, I said "try". Invariably, you will end up in a less than optimal position at times when riding on public roads and highways. This is why you see many eiders constantly making lane and speed adjustments.
I understand your feelings. Back in the day I used to distance ride in BFE, Texas where the roads often had no shoulder and a lot of big truck traffic. As to motorists using the emergency lanes, Sounds almost like you live in Boston.
Edit quotes
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2013/10/05 08:40:37
2013/10/05 08:33:55
Subject: Re:SUV vs Motorcycle. You knew someone was going to start this thread.
There's some sort of mental block I possess that prevents me from ever siding with a pack of idiots that decide to take their suspended licenses and ride around in a big group as part of something they refer to as "Hollywood Stuntz," so even if it wasn't painfully obvious that first bike was at fault, I'd still be unable to cast blame on the SUV driver.
2013/10/05 08:44:38
Subject: SUV vs Motorcycle. You knew someone was going to start this thread.
@Avatar, if I were sitting in a vehicle with my wife and kids, surrounded by bikers who were beating it with helmets and spiking the tires as the police say was happening, I would be riding over people also to get my family out of there.
You might not have caught the story, but there was an undercover cop riding with the bikers that witnessed the incident.
2013/10/05 08:51:16
Subject: SUV vs Motorcycle. You knew someone was going to start this thread.
Relapse wrote: Now it turns out there was an undercover cop at the scene that didn't do jack crap to stop the situation. You'd think he could have at least called in more cops. Gotta love New York.
Thanks for posting this. A lot of clarification about who was where that should have been in the original news story. Sounds like Mieses might be an innocent victim in this case. Also sounds like the N.Y. police have had this group in their sights for a while if there was an under cover cop infiltrated into the group. Would explain their handling of the media. I expect more to come out about this story that casts a different light than the original coverage.
2013/10/05 08:58:44
Subject: SUV vs Motorcycle. You knew someone was going to start this thread.
Relapse wrote: Now it turns out there was an undercover cop at the scene that didn't do jack crap to stop the situation. You'd think he could have at least called in more cops. Gotta love New York.
Thanks for posting this. A lot of clarification about who was where that should have been in the original news story. Sounds like Mieses might be an innocent victim in this case. Also sounds like the N.Y. police have had this group in their sights for a while if there was an under cover cop infiltrated into the group. Would explain their handling of the media. I expect more to come out about this story that casts a different light than the original coverage.
The question in my mind is if the cop actually tried to do something to stop any of this, because the story doesn't make it seem that way.
2013/10/05 09:03:36
Subject: SUV vs Motorcycle. You knew someone was going to start this thread.
Relapse wrote: @Avatar, if I were sitting in a vehicle with my wife and kids, surrounded by bikers who were beating it with helmets and spiking the tires as the police say was happening, I would be riding over people also to get my family out of there.
You might not have caught the story, but there was an undercover cop riding with the bikers that witnessed the incident.
And if I was driving that vehicle, It, myself and the passengers would never have been put into that position. This is because I would have treated the bike the same way as if it had been a tractor trailer. As soon as he got close beside me I would have slowed my vehicle down to give way.
You see, I'm old enough to not want the drama or need to seek out highly dramatic situations. Just look at how many in this thread are enjoying the fantasy of being the guy who mows down the bikes as opposed to those who are trying to use this as a learning moment of how to avoid such a situation.
From the SUV point of view-Where you are fantasizing about how you would mow the motorcyclists down, I'm looking at how they could have avoided the wreck and subsequent situation entirely.
Not trying to be overly critical, just trying to illustrate the difference in our viewpoint because we are coming at this subject from 2 very different positions.
Relapse wrote:
The question in my mind is if the cop actually tried to do something to stop any of this, because the story doesn't make it seem that way.
Exactly, I wonder what else will be revealed about this incident, as time goes by.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/10/05 09:11:42
2013/10/05 09:13:13
Subject: SUV vs Motorcycle. You knew someone was going to start this thread.
Relapse wrote: @Avatar, if I were sitting in a vehicle with my wife and kids, surrounded by bikers who were beating it with helmets and spiking the tires as the police say was happening, I would be riding over people also to get my family out of there.
You might not have caught the story, but there was an undercover cop riding with the bikers that witnessed the incident.
And if I was driving that vehicle, It, myself and the passengers would never have been put into that position. This is because I would have treated the bike the same way as if it had been a tractor trailer. As soon as he got close beside me I would have slowed my vehicle down to give way.
You see, I'm old enough to not want the drama or need to seek out highly dramatic situations. Just look at how many in this thread are enjoying the fantasy of being the guy who mows down the bikes as opposed to those who are trying to use this as a learning moment of how to avoid such a situation.
From the SUV point of view-Where you are fantasizing about how you would mow the motorcyclists down, I'm looking at how they could have avoided the wreck and subsequent situation entirely.
Not really fantasizing since what happened is a tragedy all around, but from what the video shows and what is coming out, presumably from the undercover cop, the bikers had the SUV boxed in and decided to play donkey-cave games that led to the accident.
2013/10/05 10:51:12
Subject: SUV vs Motorcycle. You knew someone was going to start this thread.
Relapse wrote: Now it turns out there was an undercover cop at the scene that didn't do jack crap to stop the situation. You'd think he could have at least called in more cops. Gotta love New York.
This story here is about as good an argument for owning a gun as ever I saw. Sorry to mention guns here, but it stems from a cop being on the scene with the bikers and it proves Ouze's point about cops not having to intervene:
Not quite, the debate is a bit more broad and varied than this and you are placing a restriction that automatically dismisses my point that the entire incident was one bad decision compounded by a next one over and over.
Yes, I am, as I view your position as an outlier. This shouldn't surprise you as that is how you characterized it; intentionally or otherwise.
You are conflating a mixture of evidence & conjecture with proof. Proof is, in and of itself absolute. That is why it is proof.
Anything which can be used to establish the veracity of a claim can be correctly described by the word "proof". This is because the meaning of the word encompasses that usage.
And if I was driving that vehicle, It, myself and the passengers would never have been put into that position. This is because I would have treated the bike the same way as if it had been a tractor trailer. As soon as he got close beside me I would have slowed my vehicle down to give way.
You see, I'm old enough to not want the drama or need to seek out highly dramatic situations. Just look at how many in this thread are enjoying the fantasy of being the guy who mows down the bikes as opposed to those who are trying to use this as a learning moment of how to avoid such a situation.
From the SUV point of view-Where you are fantasizing about how you would mow the motorcyclists down, I'm looking at how they could have avoided the wreck and subsequent situation entirely.
Not trying to be overly critical, just trying to illustrate the difference in our viewpoint because we are coming at this subject from 2 very different positions.
.
This is my thought. I'm honestly amazed at how many of you are so unabashedly supporting the SUV driver. Maybe I need to watch the video a 5th time, but the dude in the SUV made a pretty disingenuous attempt to stop. It's hard to tell what happened directly after he hit the driver that brake checked him (which, while inconsiderate and reckless, isn't as far as I know illegal), but what is clear is that there's absolutely no justification for peeling out and running people over indiscriminately. In accident situation, I've found that most often being an adult and being apologetic often can diffuse the situation. Which is like, the absolute opposite of running people over.
2013/10/05 17:10:30
Subject: SUV vs Motorcycle. You knew someone was going to start this thread.
And if I was driving that vehicle, It, myself and the passengers would never have been put into that position. This is because I would have treated the bike the same way as if it had been a tractor trailer. As soon as he got close beside me I would have slowed my vehicle down to give way.
You see, I'm old enough to not want the drama or need to seek out highly dramatic situations. Just look at how many in this thread are enjoying the fantasy of being the guy who mows down the bikes as opposed to those who are trying to use this as a learning moment of how to avoid such a situation.
From the SUV point of view-Where you are fantasizing about how you would mow the motorcyclists down, I'm looking at how they could have avoided the wreck and subsequent situation entirely.
Not trying to be overly critical, just trying to illustrate the difference in our viewpoint because we are coming at this subject from 2 very different positions.
.
This is my thought. I'm honestly amazed at how many of you are so unabashedly supporting the SUV driver. Maybe I need to watch the video a 5th time, but the dude in the SUV made a pretty disingenuous attempt to stop. It's hard to tell what happened directly after he hit the driver that brake checked him (which, while inconsiderate and reckless, isn't as far as I know illegal), but what is clear is that there's absolutely no justification for peeling out and running people over indiscriminately. In accident situation, I've found that most often being an adult and being apologetic often can diffuse the situation. Which is like, the absolute opposite of running people over.
It appears that several undercover cops were present that tip the evidence in the SUV driver's favor along with the videos the bikers posted showing them boxing in the vehicle prior to the initial accident.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/10/05 17:11:12
2013/10/05 19:20:46
Subject: Re:SUV vs Motorcycle. You knew someone was going to start this thread.
I have no prejudice against bikers, I ride myself, not enough to call myself a biker, well not around the actual bikers I know. Most people including bikers can not understand what these bikers were doing. The SUV is just driving on the freeway when a pack of motorcycles aggressively surrounds it. Like some kind of vanguard they fly up in front of this huge pack of motorcycles and begin to intimidate the driver, forcing him to slow down as more of the pack surrounds him. The way they surround the diver can't be called anything less than intimidation, there is plenty of room on that freeway and yet they choose to surround his SUV closing in on all sides by only a few inches really.
The one biker clearly pulls up and looks into the side window at the driver before deciding to pull up in front of him and aggressively decelerate into the car. No one expect someone to decelerate into your vehicle on a clear road. There was absolutely NO REASON for the biker to do that. To make his actions worse, he does not brake check, he just downshifts as you can see the brake lights did not illuminate.This action should be seen as assault with a deadly weapon and basically sets the tone for the rest of the encounter.
It would be one thing if this was a simple accident and the SUV driver got scared for no reason during the stop. What happened is the SUV was Assaulted with a deadly weapon by an individual that was a member of a large cohesive group. From that point of view I can see him being scared, its completely justifiable. Its not prejudice.
Now compound that with what we know of this group from all the other videos, and I think we can see the SUV driver probably made the right call. This is a group of illegal, rebel and aggressive motorcyclists. As a group they condone breaking the law, they hide their license plates, and we have seen them assault more than one vehicle.
You don't want to get hit by cars, don't mess with them. Don't try to intimidate other motorists, and its probably a good idea not to stand in front of a car that your buddies are trying to intimidate. I don't hate bikers, I hate ass-hats! Especially ones that think they are allowed to do whatever they want and then scream victim when someone decides to not be a sheep around them.
Maybe Jay didn't deserve to get his life destroyed over it, but its not the SUV drivers fault. If Jay and his family are going to sue anyone they should sue the genius that thought it would be fun to play chicken with the SUV driver.
One biker called for cool heads to prevail.
"We are not here to blame anyone, we are not here to point any fingers," Albert Elkerson said. "The true question is how could we have avoided what happened last Sunday, and what can we do to prevent that."
They could prevent it by not being a bunch of douche bags. The police need to go through those videos carefully and revoke any legal licenses that exist, fine and sentence them for all laws broken and confiscate their bikes as criminal tools.
Seeing as some of these bikers have been driving illegally for decades and have accumulated quite a bit of tickets, the SUV driver could sue the police for not impounding these drivers when they have been pulled over in the past.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/10/05 20:06:38
"I don't have principles, and I consider any comment otherwise to be both threatening and insulting" - Dogma
"No, sorry, synonymous does not mean same".-Dogma
"If I say "I will hug you" I am threatening you" -Dogma
2013/10/05 19:28:23
Subject: SUV vs Motorcycle. You knew someone was going to start this thread.
His record is indicative of the felonious actions he was capable of. That said, if a group was threatening me or my family, and attempted to box me in (a known MO of car jackers) I would run them over without hesitation or malice. If they attempted to enter my vehicle and or pull me or my family out of the vehicle, I would shoot them, again without hesitation or malice.
Its simple really.
My families life or theirs. Those with the ability do, those without cower.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
hotsauceman1 wrote: I do feel sorry for the guy ran over. Parylyzed like that is not a fate I would wish on anyone
Play stupid games, win stupid prizes.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/10/05 23:07:20
2013/10/05 23:54:20
Subject: SUV vs Motorcycle. You knew someone was going to start this thread.
d-usa wrote: I'm understanding of an undercover cop not doing anything.
Depending in what he was undercover for, he could have been both endangering himself and ruined an ongoing investigation.
One guy getting assaulted might actually be pretty small fish compared to what he was undercover for.
Possibly. But in a city like NY that has removed the individuals right to self protection, an officer NOT intervening is a disgrace.
Now, what people dont appreciate is that the Supreme Court has ruled numerous times that the police are under NO obligation to provide protection or intervene. They are there merely to serve and enforce the law and protect the government machinery.
2013/10/06 02:31:46
Subject: Re:SUV vs Motorcycle. You knew someone was going to start this thread.
"We are not here to blame anyone, we are not here to point any fingers," Albert Elkerson said. "The true question is how could we have avoided what happened last Sunday, and what can we do to prevent that."
They could prevent it by not being a bunch of douche bags. The police need to go through those videos carefully and revoke any legal licenses that exist, fine and sentence them for all laws broken and confiscate their bikes as criminal tools.
Seeing as some of these bikers have been driving illegally for decades and have accumulated quite a bit of tickets, the SUV driver could sue the police for not impounding these drivers when they have been pulled over in the past.
They could also act, ya know, as a REAL Motorcycle Club....
5000pts 
6000pts 
3000pts
