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 Lord Krungharr wrote:
Puppet Master doesn't cause Wounds does it? If it does not cause Wounds, then the power would not benefit from Precision Shots, as the Precision just permits the firing player to allocate the Wound/Wounds as he/she wants.

All psychic Witchfires (other than the ones with blast or template) count as firing an assault weapon, therefore MUST roll To Hit. They do not roll To Hits (plural) unless they have multiple shots described in their power rules. The ones with no numbers of shots listed still roll To Hit, meaning a singular roll To Hit.

So explain which takes precedence: focused witchfire for hemorrhage or precision shot for hemorrhage?

And how many dice do you roll for puppet master to hit? Without a profile, there is no actual rule telling you how many to roll. RAW is broken and RAI is unclear.

"A witchfire power must roll To Hit, unless it is a Blast or Large Blast, in which case it scatters as normal, or is a Template weapon, which hits automatically."

As far as Puppet Master rolling high but getting a precision shot, goes, it seems like it work like this:
1. Choose target model
2. Psychic test
3. Randomly determine next target model
4. Deny the Witch rolls
5. Roll to hit (get a 6)
6. Allocate hit to any model in unit.

 PrinceRaven wrote:
"A witchfire power must roll To Hit, unless it is a Blast or Large Blast, in which case it scatters as normal, or is a Template weapon, which hits automatically."

As far as Puppet Master rolling high but getting a precision shot, goes, it seems like it work like this:
1. Choose target model
2. Psychic test
3. Randomly determine next target model
4. Deny the Witch rolls
5. Roll to hit (get a 6)
6. Allocate hit to any model in unit.

What rule tells you how many dice you need to roll for Step 5? Page and Graph please.

P. 50, Number of Shots.

 PrinceRaven wrote:
"A witchfire power must roll To Hit, unless it is a Blast or Large Blast, in which case it scatters as normal, or is a Template weapon, which hits automatically."

As far as Puppet Master rolling high but getting a precision shot, goes, it seems like it work like this:
1. Choose target model
2. Psychic test
3. Randomly determine next target model
4. Deny the Witch rolls
5. Roll to hit (get a 6)
6. Allocate hit to any model in unit.

Puppet master does not allocate wounds, therefore your #6 is incorrect.

What rule tells you how many dice you need to roll for Step 5? Page and Graph please.

This has been covered already multiple times. You can debate the answer, but just repeating the question does nothing.

 Crimson wrote:
P. 50, Number of Shots.

Page 51, Assault Weapons. MOre specific. Try again,

nosferatu1001 wrote:

 Crimson wrote:
P. 50, Number of Shots.

Page 51, Assault Weapons. MOre specific. Try again,

Does not apply. Pg 13 if any would apply.

 Crimson wrote:
P. 50, Number of Shots.

Let me be more specific, since you did not understand my question:

Witchfires are treated as assault weapons, Assault weapons have a profile.

Where can I find the profile that says Puppet Master is Assault 1, as you are claiming.

Page and Graph please.

Fragile wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:

 Crimson wrote:
P. 50, Number of Shots.

Page 51, Assault Weapons. MOre specific. Try again,

Does not apply. Pg 13 if any would apply.

How does page 51 Assault Weapons not apply when firing an Assault weapons?
Please explain this revelation.

nosferatu1001 wrote:

 Crimson wrote:
P. 50, Number of Shots.

Page 51, Assault Weapons. MOre specific. Try again,

Which of these seem more reasonable to you:

1) My assault weapon* lacks a number of shots, maybe I should look at generic rule for number of shots** that solves the problem.
2) My assault weapon lacks number of shots, therefore it automatically hits.

*) Which witchfires really even aren't, they're merely fired as one.
**) Which probably is in the book for a reason. Most weapons have profiles and number of shots listed, but if you could not revert to the generic rule if for some reason the profile is missing, the generic rule would be serve no purpose.

Also, I'm still waiting for your rule quote that allows you to skip rolling to hit part with witchfires. And as you cannot do so, it seems you have advocated HYWPI without stating so from beginning of this thread. Maybe you should get out of this thread if you cannot follow the tenets...

And you have a generic rule that says something to the effect of [Unless otherwise stated all assault weapons fire one shot]?

If so could you quote it for us?

P.S. mind answering my question in my previous post?

 DeathReaper wrote:
And you have a generic rule that says something to the effect of [Unless otherwise stated all assault weapons fire one shot]?

No, but we have generic rule saying that if a shooting weapon has multiple shots, it is stated. So if it is not stated, it has to have one (unless you're next claiming that you cannot know as the rules fail to mention that the number of shots must be a natural number, and could in fact be 0.87 shots.)

Witchfires are treated as assault weapons, Assault weapons have a profile.

No, they're fired as assault weapons.

Where can I find the profile that says Puppet Master is Assault 1, as you are claiming.

I'm not claiming that. It is a shooting attack with unspecified profile, thus you default to generic rules for shooting weapons, which handily clear the issue. Almost like if they meant it to work this way!

 DeathReaper wrote:
And you have a generic rule that says something to the effect of [Unless otherwise stated all assault weapons fire one shot]?

If so could you quote it for us?

P.S. mind answering my question in my previous post?

Its on page 13.

Has no one brought up the difference in it not being an assault weapon, but that using only counts as firing an assault weapon?

It is a pretty big difference.

Firing an assault weapon gives you certain capabilities and denials(well, no real denials aside from not being able to fire another weapon without other rules in place).

Being an assault weapon has a weapon profile and gives the number of shots that you have to roll to hit with.

 Kommissar Kel wrote:
Has no one brought up the difference in it not being an assault weapon, but that using only counts as firing an assault weapon?

It is a pretty big difference.

Firing an assault weapon gives you certain capabilities and denials(well, no real denials aside from not being able to fire another weapon without other rules in place).

Being an assault weapon has a weapon profile and gives the number of shots that you have to roll to hit with.

It wasn't dealt with. We just got all shooting attacks must have a weapons profile.

 Kommissar Kel wrote:
Has no one brought up the difference in it not being an assault weapon, but that using only counts as firing an assault weapon?

It is a pretty big difference.

Firing an assault weapon gives you certain capabilities and denials(well, no real denials aside from not being able to fire another weapon without other rules in place).

Being an assault weapon has a weapon profile and gives the number of shots that you have to roll to hit with.

When firing an assault weapon, how many dice do you roll? How do you determine this information?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 liturgies of blood wrote:

 Kommissar Kel wrote:
Has no one brought up the difference in it not being an assault weapon, but that using only counts as firing an assault weapon?

It is a pretty big difference.

Firing an assault weapon gives you certain capabilities and denials(well, no real denials aside from not being able to fire another weapon without other rules in place).

Being an assault weapon has a weapon profile and gives the number of shots that you have to roll to hit with.

It wasn't dealt with. We just got all shooting attacks must have a weapons profile.

rigeld2 wrote:

Fragile wrote:
Your stuck on psychic powers being Assault weapons. They are not. Manifesting a witchfire counts as FIRING an assault weapon. That means you can declare a charge, etc.

Please explain how many dice you roll for a power that has Assault 4 listed in its profile. Do so without ever referencing page 51.

It was, you (obviously) chose to ignore it.

P. 50, 'Number of Shots' tells you how number of shots can be determined for any shooting weapon, assault or otherwise. How is this so difficult?

Because page 51 is more specific.

Crimson, can we find some specific instances here where GW ha had to clarify how many times shots are fired by witchfire powers without specific profiles or clarification on how many shots?

rigeld2 wrote:
Because page 51 is more specific.

So fething what? It obviously do not have sufficient information without p. 50. Why you think 'Number of Shots' rule even is there, if not exactly to address a situation like this?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 WarOne wrote:
Crimson, can we find some specific instances here where GW ha had to clarify how many times shots are fired by witchfire powers without specific profiles or clarification on how many shots?

No, because before this 'problem' was invented in this thread, no one had any difficulty with figuring out how many dice to roll.

Do you know if any of the FAQs have clarity on the subject more precisely?

 WarOne wrote:
Do you know if any of the FAQs have clarity on the subject more precisely?

No they don't. The only example brought up on the "doesn't need to roll" side is the SW powers that have been FAQ'd not to roll to hit (JOTWW) and to apply a secondary effect even if it doesn't hit (MH) both of which are not analogous.

 liturgies of blood wrote:

 WarOne wrote:
Do you know if any of the FAQs have clarity on the subject more precisely?

No they don't. The only example brought up on the "doesn't need to roll" side is the SW powers that have been FAQ'd not to roll to hit (JOTWW) and to apply a secondary effect even if it doesn't hit (MH) both of which are not analogous.

Yep, especially as those are 5E powers.

Just got clarity as well, how does 5th edition rule on their final form explain how to resolve psychic powers. Perhaps GW assumed rules between editions would be understood rarer than explicitly explained?

 Crimson wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:
Because page 51 is more specific.

So fething what? It obviously do not have sufficient information without p. 50. Why you think 'Number of Shots' rule even is there, if not exactly to address a situation like this?

So because the rule is more specific it shouldn't apply?

They were mostly kept consistent with their 5th resolution.

rigeld2 wrote:

So because the rule is more specific it shouldn't apply?

It shouldn't apply because it can't apply. Thus logical course of action is look at the generic rule (which is there for a purpose!) instead of declaring that the attack auto-hits.

 Crimson wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

So because the rule is more specific it shouldn't apply?

It shouldn't apply because it can't apply. Thus logical course of action is look at the generic rule (which is there for a purpose!) instead of declaring that the attack auto-hits.

I'm pretty sure no one is saying anything auto-hits.
People are saying that a) the rules fail to function as written and b) your assertion of intent is not the only possibility.

rigeld2 wrote:

 Kommissar Kel wrote:
Has no one brought up the difference in it not being an assault weapon, but that using only counts as firing an assault weapon?

It is a pretty big difference.

Firing an assault weapon gives you certain capabilities and denials(well, no real denials aside from not being able to fire another weapon without other rules in place).

Being an assault weapon has a weapon profile and gives the number of shots that you have to roll to hit with.

When firing an assault weapon, how many dice do you roll? How do you determine this information?

I dont think you "got" what I was saying.

In this case you roll 0 dice because you have no profle telling you how many shots you have.

What you do is follow the rules for firing assault weapons on page 51: shoot the number of times indicated in the profile regardless of whether you have moved(0 in this case as there is no profile), may assault in the assault phase, and must target the same unit as the rest of your unit.

 DJGietzen wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:
And you have a generic rule that says something to the effect of [Unless otherwise stated all assault weapons fire one shot]?

If so could you quote it for us?

P.S. mind answering my question in my previous post?

Its on page 13.

Specifically where does this information reside on Page 13, because I see nothing that states anything about [Puppet Master is treated as an Assault 1 weapon, therefore you fire one shot[].