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Found this little gem today. Page 45, Bikes and jet bikes, under Armoured Steed. "Bike and jetbike riders benefit from the protection offered by their bike, which increases their toughness by 1. If the bike or jetbike is part of the model's standard wargear, this bonus is already included on its profile."
I happened to notice a while back that none of the Dark Angel Ravenwing units have their bike listed on the standard wargear, however they do have toughness 5. It is included for the Space Marine bike units however. Therefore RAW, all Ravenwing bikers are actually toughness 6? I understand how silly this sounds, but Read As Written it appears Ravenwing are tough little gits.

If they don't have a bike listed, why are you adding +1T for a bike?

 grendel083 wrote:
If they don't have a bike listed, why are you adding +1T for a bike?

Because page 45 tells us that bike riders benefit from + 1 to their toughness. It then tells us that if the bike is part of their wargear then that bonus is ALREADY included. In the case of the Ravenwing bikers, they are unit type Bike. So we add 1 to their toughness, as they do not have the bike listed in their wargear. They are default toughness 5. Page 45 would take them to toughness 6. See how that works?

I believe the toughness is already added when you read T5 on your profile for the bike. Note the Jetbikes have it 3 (4) in their profile; regularly have t3 Jetbikes make it 4. Regular marines have t4 I doubt they would be t6.

Raw or not it'll get faq'd and I doubt anyone would let you run t6 marine bikes , plus if the bike isn't included in their wargear, are you paying extra to add it?

ahhh yes, a noob trying to make a discovery to break the game... again...

/sarcasm

No, Ravenwing is not T6. Good try.

Hmm, good point.
1) Bikers get a +1 T
2) Unless they have a bike in their Wargear, which they don't.
So technically you'd get T6-Ravenwing.
My counter-argument would be that they are 'Unit Type: Biker' and that would be a bad argument.

But I don't think any tournament or player would allow it.

If they had a bike listed in their wargear, they'd have the +1 toughness already included.
If you later add a bike, then you could claim a +1. But that isn't happening here. There is nothing that brings it up to T6.

Neronoxx wrote:

 grendel083 wrote:
If they don't have a bike listed, why are you adding +1T for a bike?

Because page 45 tells us that bike riders benefit from + 1 to their toughness. It then tells us that if the bike is part of their wargear then that bonus is ALREADY included. In the case of the Ravenwing bikers, they are unit type Bike. So we add 1 to their toughness, as they do not have the bike listed in their wargear. They are default toughness 5. Page 45 would take them to toughness 6. See how that works?

What my esteemed colleagues are Trying to say is: If ravenwing bikers have no Bike, then how are they going to get a +1T as protection offered from the bike they don't have?

They cannot. No Bike(ever) is basically the same as Bike in the start: use your base T

 SoloFalcon1138 wrote:
ahhh yes, a noob trying to make a discovery to break the game... again...

/sarcasm

No, Ravenwing is not T6. Good try.

Not trying to break the game. Simply found something interesting and thought I would share. And this is a forum for this kind of rules questioning. So take your insults elsewhere



Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Kommissar Kel wrote:

Neronoxx wrote:

 grendel083 wrote:
If they don't have a bike listed, why are you adding +1T for a bike?

Because page 45 tells us that bike riders benefit from + 1 to their toughness. It then tells us that if the bike is part of their wargear then that bonus is ALREADY included. In the case of the Ravenwing bikers, they are unit type Bike. So we add 1 to their toughness, as they do not have the bike listed in their wargear. They are default toughness 5. Page 45 would take them to toughness 6. See how that works?

What my esteemed colleagues are Trying to say is: If ravenwing bikers have no Bike, then how are they going to get a +1T as protection offered from the bike they don't have?

They cannot. No Bike(ever) is basically the same as Bike in the start: use your base T

Because the rule on page 45 says if the bike is not in your wargear, then theel bonus toughness is NOT included in your profile. Please people, read the actual page before posting.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Eclipseone wrote:
I believe the toughness is already added when you read T5 on your profile for the bike. Note the Jetbikes have it 3 (4) in their profile; regularly have t3 Jetbikes make it 4. Regular marines have t4 I doubt they would be t6.

Raw or not it'll get faq'd and I doubt anyone would let you run t6 marine bikes , plus if the bike isn't included in their wargear, are you paying extra to add it?

Eldar jetbikes are not listed as 3(4). They are listed as 4 in their codex. Feel free to double check me, I did. And I would never run them as toughness 6 bikers. I see the intent. The riders wargear includes the weaponry of the bikes but not the bikes. If anything this is an informal complaint about the writing quality of the codex.

grendel083 wrote:If they had a bike listed in their wargear, they'd have the +1 toughness already included.
If you later add a bike, then you could claim a +1. But that isn't happening here. There is nothing that brings it up to T6.

Kommissar Kel wrote:

Neronoxx wrote:

 grendel083 wrote:
If they don't have a bike listed, why are you adding +1T for a bike?

Because page 45 tells us that bike riders benefit from + 1 to their toughness. It then tells us that if the bike is part of their wargear then that bonus is ALREADY included. In the case of the Ravenwing bikers, they are unit type Bike. So we add 1 to their toughness, as they do not have the bike listed in their wargear. They are default toughness 5. Page 45 would take them to toughness 6. See how that works?

What my esteemed colleagues are Trying to say is: If ravenwing bikers have no Bike, then how are they going to get a +1T as protection offered from the bike they don't have?

They cannot. No Bike(ever) is basically the same as Bike in the start: use your base T

grendel083 wrote:If they had a bike listed in their wargear, they'd have the +1 toughness already included.
If you later add a bike, then you could claim a +1. But that isn't happening here. There is nothing that brings it up to T6.

The +1 T is awarded by virtue of being Unit Type: Bike, not by actually having a bike. If the unit has the bike in their standard wargear, the +1 is included in their profile. So looking at standard ravenwing bikers:

- Unit type bike: According to Armored Steed (BRB pg 45), they get +1 toughness
- They have no bike listed under their standard wargear. Again, according to Armored Steed, this means that the +1 bonus is not included under their profile.
- If they get a +1 to toughness, and it is not included on their standard profile, we must treat them as T5+1 or T6.

I think it's nowhere near RAI, but it is RAW as far as I can tell.

Its a fair point. The unit type is Biker and therefore all the rules on p45 should apply and bikes are not actually listed as part of Ravenwing wargear. Unless you can argue that a unit's type is part of its wargear, which I think is tenuous. An interesting loophole, but not really a viable in-game argument

 Flinty wrote:
Its a fair point. The unit type is Biker and therefore all the rules on p45 should apply and bikes are not actually listed as part of Ravenwing wargear. Unless you can argue that a unit's type is part of its wargear, which I think is tenuous. An interesting loophole, but not really a viable in-game argument

It would make me feel a lot better about having to pay 6 points more per biker than C:SM though

(I kind of half-kid....I don't want to start another multi-page thread on the virtues of each codex's bikers)

Hm, it would be funny to put foot slogging dudes on the table and be like Yo, those guys are bikers. But they dont have bikes. So...Yeah bro come at me!

 Flinty wrote:
Its a fair point. The unit type is Biker and therefore all the rules on p45 should apply and bikes are not actually listed as part of Ravenwing wargear. Unless you can argue that a unit's type is part of its wargear, which I think is tenuous. An interesting loophole, but not really a viable in-game argument

Pretty much this.

They're Unit Type: Bike, and so benefit from all of the rules for Bikes... but they don't actually have a bike. But by not having a bike, they gain the +1 Toughness boost for being Unit Type: Bike, due to the extra protection granted by the bike that they don't have.


It's not going to fly on the table, but is an amusing loophole.

Basimpo wrote:
Hm, it would be funny to put foot slogging dudes on the table and be like Yo, those guys are bikers. But they dont have bikes. So...Yeah bro come at me!

Yeah, T:5 bikers with no SM bikes that also have twin-linked bolters in their wargear. What's even funnier is the old codex:csm has chaos bikes in the profile for their bikers. What a screw-up.
P.S. We can only dream that they make RW bikers even better now. Then we can say shove it White Scars.

Yeah, that was kinda the point. You step back,stare at it,and shake your head.

I'm sorry. I'm trying to follow this but got myself confused.

How are we getting T6?

I kind of understand but not completely.

They have T5 in their profile.

They are unit type: Bike, but do not have a bike listed in their standard wargear.

The Bike rules say that the bonus Toughness conferred by being Unit Type: Bike is included in the profile when the model has the bike in their standard wargear... but Ravenwing bikers don't have a bike listed in their standard wargear, and so should get the bonus Toughness, making them T6.

"Bike and jetbike riders benefit from the protection offered by their Bike, which increases their Toughness characteristic by 1."

If you have no bike, then how are you benefiting from the protection offered by the bike you don't have?

The +1 toughness is from having a bike or a Jetbike.
Ravenwing riders do not have bikes.
Ravenwing Bikers do not get the +1 toughness.
If the Ravenwing biker was able to get a bike somehow, he would indeed get T6

 Kommissar Kel wrote:
"Bike and jetbike riders benefit from the protection offered by their Bike, which increases their Toughness characteristic by 1."

If you have no bike, then how are you benefiting from the protection offered by the bike you don't have?

That's the silly part. They're unit type: Bike, which means they're riding a bike... they just don't have one. Who knows, maybe they're just running around going 'Broooom!' and the protection is because, I don't know, THE EMPEROR!' - but their non-existent bike grants them +1 Toughness.


As I said, it would never fly at the table, but it's downright shoddy writing.

 Kommissar Kel wrote:
"Bike and jetbike riders benefit from the protection offered by their Bike, which increases their Toughness characteristic by 1."
If you have no bike, then how are you benefiting from the protection offered by the bike you don't have?

Because that sentence doesn't say they need to have the Bike in the Wargear, it only has the requirement of them riding a Bike.

Kangodo wrote:

 Kommissar Kel wrote:
"Bike and jetbike riders benefit from the protection offered by their Bike, which increases their Toughness characteristic by 1."
If you have no bike, then how are you benefiting from the protection offered by the bike you don't have?

Because that sentence doesn't say they need to have the Bike in the Wargear, it only has the requirement of them riding a Bike.

riding a bike they do not have.

Being Unit type bike does not mean they are riding bikes, it just means that they are unit type: bikes; following the rules therein.

As the T bonus requires them to have a bike, not having a bike means you do not get the bonus.

This is the same as Thunderwulf cavalry not having thunderwolf mounts; they have all the stat bonuses and most of the special rules; but they are not, in fact, riding thunderwolf mounts.

Blue Scribes are another excelent example, they are Unit type Jetbike, but are not actually riding a jetbike(heck, they are riding a writing desk, books, and section of floor).

Doesn't matter! They don't need to have a Bike in their wargear to be labeled as a Bike-rider.

So the rules:
1. Everything with 'unit type: Bike' gets +1 Toughness.
2. That bonus is already included in the profile if they have a Bike in their Wargear.
3. Ravenwing are 'type: Bike' but don't have a Bike in their Wargear.
Conclusion: They are Toughness 6.

It's silly and nobody will ever let you get away with it.

"Yo dawg, I heard you like bikes. . ."

Kangodo wrote:
Doesn't matter! They don't need to have a Bike in their wargear to be labeled as a Bike-rider.

So the rules:
1. Everything with 'unit type: Bike' gets +1 Toughness.
2. That bonus is already included in the profile if they have a Bike in their Wargear.
3. Ravenwing are 'type: Bike' but don't have a Bike in their Wargear.
Conclusion: They are Toughness 6.

It's silly and nobody will ever let you get away with it.

Well considering that the Toughness bonus is a protection afforded by their Bikes, then it seems that the Toughness bonus is in fact tied to them having bikes.

No bike, no Toughness bonus.

RAW they only 'lose that bonus' if the Bike is in the standard Wargear.
It isn't.

RAW they only gain that bonus via riding a bike(I have already quoted the text).

 Kommissar Kel wrote:
RAW they only gain that bonus via riding a bike(I have already quoted the text).

You've come to an incorrect conclusion from the text you quoted.

The fact that they're (Jet)Bikers gives them the +1 T. Not the fact that they're on a bike.

rigeld2 wrote:

 Kommissar Kel wrote:
RAW they only gain that bonus via riding a bike(I have already quoted the text).

You've come to an incorrect conclusion from the text you quoted.

The fact that they're (Jet)Bikers gives them the +1 T. Not the fact that they're on a bike.

I concur with this. If the unit type is "Bike" then they are bikers, regardless of whether or not a bike is actually listed in their wargear. Its obviously a way of reducing the need to print what appears to be redundant information, however this genius idea was obviously made without properly reading the details of the core rules.

Same as that older Space Marine Codex where Terminators didn't have Terminator Armor in their wargear... So by RAW they didn't get the 5+ inv save. Not that anyone tried to claim that in a game but they could have.