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 Tyran wrote:
Maybe we should separate Chaos in the mortal/ex-mortal followers and the immortal host.

The followers are evil for evil sake, the Daemons and Gods are evil because it is in their nature.

I'd honestly still label Daemonkind with an evil label (TM of the Doom corporation), much like how Demons, Devils, and Yugoloths are labeled as such in D&D even though they're innately evil (to the point of being manifestations of various kinds of evil) and can't really do anything about it in D&D.

The Daemons are expressions of their patron god's mindset, or are aspects of the Warp itself coalesced into some sort of sentient form.

While they can't really help but be what they are, as they exist simply *because* they are formed from a specific set of emotional energy, that does not make them any more or less evil in the setting.

Chaos is power it's as good or evil as the one who wields it, yes it will turn you insane in time, but not because it's evil but because it's random and powerful. As for the gods they are just a psychic footprint of mankind, they arent even alive, no really so I don't see how they could be good or evil either. As for daemons all power is volatile, daemons are just the warp counterpart to a lighting strike.

Nids are amoral and hungry. They just want to replicate and are not trying to break the barriers between dimensions and mes with reality.

 Crimson wrote:
I think Chaos worshippers are mostly happy bunch. World Eaters have great time when they butcher some poor bastards, and of course pleasure is the whole point of Slaanesh.

Maybe at first, but Khorne and Slaanesh are probably the two greatest examples of how worshiping Chaos will leave you a mess. Khornate worshipers? Will eventually deteriorate into gibbering madmen, never happy unless they're spilling blood. Slaaneshi? The sex and drugs will be great at tfirst, but eventually it'll stop being enough, and they'll have to go to greater and greater excesses to get that same feeling of pleasure, and will probably feel like gak when they're not commiting some massively excessive act. Essentially, you'll be left a shell of your former self, only really enjoying whatever that god's particular obsession is.

If you want true evil, look to the Necrons. A race that was being slaughtered and enslaved, sold their bodies and souls to the C'tan, and then went around the galaxy killing and conquering everything that wasn't Necrontyr. All to get back at the Old Ones.
They could care less about the powers of the Warp, as is depicted in many novels and fluff.

I think Chaos is evil, but they are just as many have stated, manifestations of emotions from beings throughout the galaxy into another demension.

After all of the BL books and fluff I've read, I'd say both the Imperium of Man and the Forces of Chaos are evil.

...Except Ultramar, those people work to better mankind.

 OminusMarine wrote:
If you want true evil, look to the Necrons. A race that was being slaughtered and enslaved, sold their bodies and souls to the C'tan, and then went around the galaxy killing and conquering everything that wasn't Necrontyr. All to get back at the Old Ones.
They could care less about the powers of the Warp, as is depicted in many novels and fluff.

I think Chaos is evil, but they are just as many have stated, manifestations of emotions from beings throughout the galaxy into another demension.

After all of the BL books and fluff I've read, I'd say both the Imperium of Man and the Forces of Chaos are evil.

...Except Ultramar, those people work to better mankind.

Only Chaos and the Dark Eldar do evil for evil's sake.

And the Necrons do have some pathos, their lives were short, brutish, full of excruciating pain and misery and the Old Ones were kicking it with disease free immortality and the Old Ones just blew off the Necrontyr.

And there is nothing the Necrons have ever done that can measure up to the Daemonculabba.

 Crimson wrote:
I think Chaos worshippers are mostly happy bunch. World Eaters have great time when they butcher some poor bastards, and of course pleasure is the whole point of Slaanesh. So it works for them.

That sounds like the kind of thing a serial killer or a rapist would say to justify their actions.

 OminusMarine wrote:
If you want true evil, look to the Necrons. A race that was being slaughtered and enslaved, sold their bodies and souls to the C'tan, and then went around the galaxy killing and conquering everything that wasn't Necrontyr. All to get back at the Old Ones.
They could care less about the powers of the Warp, as is depicted in many novels and fluff.

I think Chaos is evil, but they are just as many have stated, manifestations of emotions from beings throughout the galaxy into another demension.

After all of the BL books and fluff I've read, I'd say both the Imperium of Man and the Forces of Chaos are evil.

...Except Ultramar, those people work to better mankind.

And then Ward retconned them into Space-Pinocchio.

 Tyran wrote:
\
And then Ward retconned them into Space-Pinocchio.

I'd take Space-Pinocchio over Robo-Tyranids any day.

I would ask myself the question "what can you positively gain from chaos"?

I can see negative reasons to turn to chaos, e.g. to gain some sense of independence from the oppression of the empire, as a kind of rebellion, etc.

There is nothing positive to gain, perhaps some fleeting improvement of martial prowess from Khorne or some very brief pleasure from Slaanesh but then it's all downhill into madness and mutation.

Even becoming a daemon prince has many, many negative, you are a slave to chaos and tied into the warp.

I just can't see any genuine upside, if you want to be ridden with foul decay, devolve into a perverse degenerate or a ravening murderer, or mutated into oblivion, ok.

It's evil and a very clear example of evil, which is very obvious from the setting and fluff, although they've really toned down the mutation elements over the years. It used ot be that all chaos worshippers had extensive mutations, including CSM who now don't seem mutated in general.

Isengard wrote:
I would ask myself the question "what can you positively gain from chaos"?

I can see negative reasons to turn to chaos, e.g. to gain some sense of independence from the oppression of the empire, as a kind of rebellion, etc.

There is nothing positive to gain, perhaps some fleeting improvement of martial prowess from Khorne or some very brief pleasure from Slaanesh but then it's all downhill into madness and mutation.

Even becoming a daemon prince has many, many negative, you are a slave to chaos and tied into the warp.

I just can't see any genuine upside, if you want to be ridden with foul decay, devolve into a perverse degenerate or a ravening murderer, or mutated into oblivion, ok.

It's evil and a very clear example of evil, which is very obvious from the setting and fluff, although they've really toned down the mutation elements over the years. It used ot be that all chaos worshippers had extensive mutations, including CSM who now don't seem mutated in general.

It gives power, freedom and the possibility of immortality. Plus is in the nature of many people to seek something greater than themselves, and the GEOM is somewhat lame in comparison with the Chaos Gods when it comes to being a God.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also, Chaos followers tend to be happier than the Loyalist ones.

 Tyran wrote:
It gives power, freedom and the possibility of immortality

Eh, all of those are very debatable. Power? Only if you distinguish yourslef enough, which as an expendable mook, will be hard to do. At best, you're canon fodder. If if you do do well, you can still be bumped off by rivals or just made into a Spawn on a whim. Freedom? Hardly. You're just the plaything og the gods. If you happen to go against any of their ideals, you'll be disowned. There's also the small matter of the rampant mutations and corruption, neither of which you get a say in. As for immortality, same as power. Your chances of being granted Daemonhood are pretty slim, really. Your soul might get recycled into becoming a regular Daemon when you die, I guess, but then are you really yourself?

 Troike wrote:

 Tyran wrote:
It gives power, freedom and the possibility of immortality

Eh, all of those are very debatable. Power? Only if you distinguish yourslef enough, which as an expendable mook, will be hard to do. At best, you're canon fodder. If if you do do well, you can still be bumped off by rivals or just made into a Spawn on a whim. Freedom? Hardly. You're just the plaything og the gods. If you happen to go against any of their ideals, you'll be disowned. There's also the small matter of the rampant mutations and corruption, neither of which you get a say in. As for immortality, same as power. Your chances of being granted Daemonhood are pretty slim, really. Your soul might get recycled into becoming a regular Daemon when you die, I guess, but then are you really yourself?

Is still better than what the Imperium promises.

imperium promises you a death in the name of the emperor

 Tyran wrote:
Is still better than what the Imperium promises.

Why does being anti-Imperium mean you're pro-Chaos?

because thats wh40k if your anti Imperium your chaos, lol. but on a more factual note, a normal man will not live long if he is not working with the Chaos or the Big E

I'm anti-both, GO NIDS!!!

 raiden wrote:
because thats wh40k if your anti Imperium your chaos, lol. but on a more factual note, a normal man will not live long if he is not working with the Chaos or the Big E

How about the Space Marines though? The Iron Warriors in particular seem like whiny wusses after they massacred people on their own homeworld? Perturabo just had to team up with Horus? Is there not something more noble they could have done to redeem themselves?

Then there's the Soul Drinkers who I'm liking more and more the more I find out about them. They're anti-Imperium and anti-Chaos. They go as far as to say that the Imperium is the worst thing to happen to the human race and has totally gone against everything the Emperor has stood for.

again, marines are different a normal MAN would not last long, (those marines also have few to no friends to help them)

Aren't the Soul Drinkers pretty much wiped out thanks to a Chaos corruption within their ranks?

 Tyran wrote:
Aren't the Soul Drinkers pretty much wiped out thanks to a Chaos corruption within their ranks?

You tell me. I haven't read their novels.

Regardless, I'm unconvinced that there's any positive aspect to Chaos. Reading the 6th edition Daemon codex, I have found nothing that suggests anything that could put the gods in a good light. They're malevolent entities that want nothing more than to have the galaxy burn.

As a new Daemon player myself, I like them better this way.

 Wilytank wrote:

 Tyran wrote:
Aren't the Soul Drinkers pretty much wiped out thanks to a Chaos corruption within their ranks?

You tell me. I haven't read their novels.

Regardless, I'm unconvinced that there's any positive aspect to Chaos. Reading the 6th edition Daemon codex, I have found nothing that suggests anything that could put the gods in a good light. They're malevolent entities that want nothing more than to have the galaxy burn.

As a new Daemon player myself, I like them better this way.

After a quick Google search, yep, they are an extinct Chapter.

As for Chaos, yes it is evil.

But I still believe that it is more fun to be Chaos than to be Loyalist.
But I'm a Great Sky Mother servant myself, and both Chaos and Loyalist are a tasty breakfast

 Kain wrote:

 OminusMarine wrote:
If you want true evil, look to the Necrons. A race that was being slaughtered and enslaved, sold their bodies and souls to the C'tan, and then went around the galaxy killing and conquering everything that wasn't Necrontyr. All to get back at the Old Ones.
They could care less about the powers of the Warp, as is depicted in many novels and fluff.

I think Chaos is evil, but they are just as many have stated, manifestations of emotions from beings throughout the galaxy into another demension.

After all of the BL books and fluff I've read, I'd say both the Imperium of Man and the Forces of Chaos are evil.

...Except Ultramar, those people work to better mankind.

Only Chaos and the Dark Eldar do evil for evil's sake.

And the Necrons do have some pathos, their lives were short, brutish, full of excruciating pain and misery and the Old Ones were kicking it with disease free immortality and the Old Ones just blew off the Necrontyr.

And there is nothing the Necrons have ever done that can measure up to the Daemonculabba.

Just imagining the way the Daemonculabba works makes me shiver. Makes it much worse than the experiments in Unit 731 during WW2.

Mmmm... Chaos has always been the eviler of the many evils of the 40k universe.

It's hard to say that they are worse than the other factions, given the fact the Imperium is an intergalactic fascist regime, the Necrons literally want to destroy all life, the Orks covet war as a pasttime, the Eldar have no problem killing a planet to avoid a possible future, etc. Everybody's bad in 40k.

What makes Chaos evil-er is their dark gods. All of them want to fundamentally destroy the universe in fundamental ways, and I guess that's what really makes them bad.

 techsoldaten wrote:
Mmmm... Chaos has always been the eviler of the many evils of the 40k universe.

It's hard to say that they are worse than the other factions, given the fact the Imperium is an intergalactic fascist regime, the Necrons literally want to destroy all life, the Orks covet war as a pasttime, the Eldar have no problem killing a planet to avoid a possible future, etc. Everybody's bad in 40k.

What makes Chaos evil-er is their dark gods. All of them want to fundamentally destroy the universe in fundamental ways, and I guess that's what really makes them bad.

They don't really want to destroy the universe, just corrupt it and probably fusion it with the Immaterium. Personally I found the DE more evil. They do everything Slaanesh do, except they have an alternative to be fething evil.

 TheDungen wrote:
Chaos is power it's as good or evil as the one who wields it

That's like saying "genocide is neither good nor evil, it's how you do it."

 Melissia wrote:

 TheDungen wrote:
Chaos is power it's as good or evil as the one who wields it

That's like saying "genocide is neither good nor evil, it's how you do it."

With style.

The thing is its never bad at first but then it turns bad. I mean this is 40k all the factions are evil in some form I mean if the imperium was just fine and dandy you would not have millions converting to chaos everyday. Well at first they may enjoy it but then they realize chaos is just as bad as the imperium but once someone realizes it they are already damned so they just keep going with chaos for the chance for power.

shinros wrote:
The thing is its never bad at first but then it turns bad. I mean this is 40k all the factions are evil in some form I mean if the imperium was just fine and dandy you would not have millions converting to chaos everyday. Well at first they may enjoy it but then they realize chaos is just as bad as the imperium but once someone realizes it they are already damned so they just keep going with chaos for the chance for power.

How about the lowly guardsman who's already in the army so he's going to stick with it anyway in hopes he doesn't die and live long enough to achieve veteran status? Sounds like the same thing to me.