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So the question is do cold ones and Dark steeds get murderous prowess in the relevant units.

Murderous Prowess wrote:
Models with this special rule (but not their mounts) reroll all To Wound rolls of a 1 when making close combat attacks

However when we look at any Cavalry entry we'll see:

Cold One Knights wrote:
Special Rules:Always Strikes First (Riders only), Fear, Hatred (High Elves) (Riders only), Murderous Prowess, Stupidity

So what does this mean:

A) Murderous Prowess says mounts don't get the benefit therefore there is no reason to put (Riders only) as we already know the mount can't receive the benefit. No reroll 1s for Cold Ones or Dark Steeds.

B) Whilst murderous prowess prevents a mount from receiving the benefit from its rider this is to stop Characters on monsters giving them the rerolls. As the Cold One clearly has murderous prowess itself it benefits because it is not its own mount. That is why there is no (Rider only) clause on that special rule.

C) Other - please explain.

A) follows the precedent with mark of Khorne, but it seems weird that they didn't put (Rider only) on murderous prowess on these units which seems to strongly imply the mount and rider both have the rule. What say you?

Models with this rule (but not their mounts) re-roll all To Wound rolls of a 1 when making close combat attacks.

It is pretty clear it is not intended for mounts to get this rule.

-Matt

But why give the rule to the actual Cold one? The Cold one surely benefits but not the Cold ones mount.

They do benefit by RAW.
Anything else on the subject belongs in general discussions rather than YMDC.
My guess is few people and TOs will follow RAW in this case though.

Why does anything else belong in general discussion? YMDC is for discussing the rules so you can determine what they are or work out a reasonable HYWPI. Here I'm trying to figure out what the actual rule is whilst I understand what the RAW is I would like to try to figure out what the actual rule so I can play it that way.

The cold one doesn't have it RAW as part of the cavalry - rider only is built in to the USR.

Rider only is not built into the rule. Each the Rider and the Cold One have the rule. The rule allows the rider (but not his mount) to reroll 1s to wound and the Cold One (but not his mount) to reroll 1s to wound.

Rider but not his mount. Is the cold one his mount? Yes, so it does not get the rule.
If it wasn't being used as a mount and still had the rule, it would benefit. It's like supporting attacks - MC mounts have the rule which lets them make 3 supporting attacks. They also have the rule that supporting ranks of cavalry mounts can't attack, so they don't benefit from the first rule.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I realise that the mount would have the rule as part of the unit, but as it is a mount it does not get the benefits, per the subclause of the rule.

Read the entry for Cold One Cavalry.

We know that the following models have the following Special Rules:

Cold One Knight: ASF, Fear, Hatred (HE), Murderous Prowess, Stupidity, thick skinned

Cold One: Fear, Murderous Prowess, Stupidity, Thick-Skinned

So what does MP do? For the Knight it would then read:

Murderous Prowess wrote:
[CO Knights] with this special rule (but not their mounts) reroll all To Wound rolls of a 1 when making close combat attacks.

So this rule tells us it gives a benefit to the knight but not to his mount.

Murderous Prowess wrote:
[Cold Ones] with this special rule (but not their mounts) reroll all To Wound rolls of a 1 when making close combat attacks.

So this ruled tells us it gives the benefit to the actual Cold One but not to his mount which is irrelevant as the Cold One has no mount.

Except that, as you stated, the knights rule stops his mount from having the benefit - this happens frequently with mounts. The Cold One has the rule when it is on its own, but the knights rule prevents it from getting it as a mount.

Cool I think that's convinced me Niteware thanks I was on that side of the fence due to COs and DSs not having the rule for Characters just wanted to argue it to convince myself. Cheers

NP, that's what I love about this forum too.

Niteware wrote:
Except that, as you stated, the knights rule stops his mount from having the benefit - this happens frequently with mounts. The Cold One has the rule when it is on its own, but the knights rule prevents it from getting it as a mount.

So when you put a rider on a Dark Steed it looses the Fast Cavalry rule? Good to know.

No... unless the rider has a rule which specifically says that it can't have the fast cavalry rule... then it would.

Niteware wrote:
No... unless the rider has a rule which specifically says that it can't have the fast cavalry rule... then it would.

One of these days GW is going to learn how to write clear rules, and we'll avoid all this wrangling over semantics and arguing over which rule takes precedence - the rule that says Cold Ones get murderous prowess, or the rule that says they don't.

Not sure why any rider would want the LESS effective mount in combat when others of the same species do more damage, but whatever.

 Vulcan wrote:

Niteware wrote:
No... unless the rider has a rule which specifically says that it can't have the fast cavalry rule... then it would.

One of these days GW is going to learn how to write clear rules, and we'll avoid all this wrangling over semantics and arguing over which rule takes precedence - the rule that says Cold Ones get murderous prowess, or the rule that says they don't.

Not sure why any rider would want the LESS effective mount in combat when others of the same species do more damage, but whatever.

It's the same as ither abilities which are lost by mounting something - supporting attacks being a key example. BRB says that MB get to make 3 supporting attacks. An army book could increase that. BRB also says that mounts can't make supporting attacks,. This doesn't make the mount lose the extra supporting attacks rule, it just also has a rule which says it can't use them.

I re-read the rule and the armybook yesterday evening
Cold one Cavalry/chariots have the rule, as have characters that happen to ride Cold ones
The rule says: "the model (but not the mount) blablabla"
I couldn't find a separate entry for cold ones in the army book. So I don't see where it says that cold ones have the rule, it's a rule that affect a "model" as a whole in all instances in the army book, never a cold one alone

Agreed

the entry for Cold Ones under Mounts gives just War Beast with the following SR: Fear, Stupidity, Thick-Skinned.

Mount special rules are on page 87 and cold ones do not have MP on their own.

Where are you looking to say that an actual Cold One (not a knight), has Murderous Prowess? I'm looking at the mounts section on pg87 and all I see after Cold One is Fear, Stupidity and Thick-skinned. There's nothing on any Cold One entry. If you're looking at pg92, Murderous Prowess is applying to the whole model and it's already covered on pg34 that the mount of the Cold One Knights (in this case Cold Ones) would not benefit from Murderous Prowess.

I see no way you can make this claim. Even if you could, I think it's fairly clear that RAI is that Cold Ones can't re-roll 1s to wound.

Does it really make that big a difference that we're getting this hot over it?

This would only affect about 4% of all attacks from the unit... on a unit that's not going to get anywhere NEAR the use it used to get in the old book due to the changes in the cauldron rules and the loss of the Hydra banner.

 Vulcan wrote:
Does it really make that big a difference that we're getting this hot over it?

This would only affect about 4% of all attacks from the unit... on a unit that's not going to get anywhere NEAR the use it used to get in the old book due to the changes in the cauldron rules and the loss of the Hydra banner.

If you stick the Cauldron in a unit of coldone knights it becomes pretty important. With 15-18 cold one attacks (frenzied), you'd be re-rolling all the wounds, not just the onces.


-Matt

I think its pretty clear that in the excitement of the new book people perhaps did not read the book that closely.

The Cold One does not get actually the Murderous Prowess ability anywhere that I can see in the book so hopefully its a fairly moot discussion?

 Mr Morden wrote:
I think its pretty clear that in the excitement of the new book people perhaps did not read the book that closely.

The Cold One does not get actually the Murderous Prowess ability anywhere that I can see in the book so hopefully its a fairly moot discussion?

Not entirely moot. Every entry I can find for cold ones, is under cold one knights. The combined unit has the rule Murderous Prowess, which by the rule, the cold one cannot re-roll 1's, as they are the mount.
If that means, that mounts have the rule, but don't get to re-roll 1's. Then a cauldron of blood:
Models with the murderous prowess special rule re-roll all failed rolls to wound.
Looks like an over-sight, but I think cold ones in a unit with a cauldron do get to re-roll to wound.


-Matt

Cold Ones are listed under Mounts and that special rule is not listed in any way in that entry- see page 87?

I think Matt is right in this case, but it's indeed probably an overlook
The CoK model has the Murderous prowess rule, meaning only the rider re-rolls 1s to wound
but the whole model still has the rule - even if it doesn't give anything by itself to the mount-, and thus the whole model is affected by the CoB effect, thus the mount would re-roll all failed to wound
it's stupid, but RAW it's like that at the moment (dire need of a FAQ, like the Teradon chiefs / Pegasus Paladin not being able to join Teradon / Pegasii units)

Murderous Prowess specifically states that mounts are not affected by it. Why should they repeat themselves and say (rider only) when it has already been made clear? The reason hatred and asf say riders only is because mounts can have those rules and therefore need to be specific.

titaniumkiz wrote:
Murderous Prowess specifically states that mounts are not affected by it. Why should they repeat themselves and say (rider only) when it has already been made clear? The reason hatred and asf say riders only is because mounts can have those rules and therefore need to be specific.

Actually, murderous power says that models not riders re-roll. They still have the rule, they are just excluded from re-rolling 1's in the rule.



Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Mr Morden wrote:
Cold Ones are listed under Mounts and that special rule is not listed in any way in that entry- see page 87?

Ok, now see the cold ones that are listed on page 92, and on 42. Same goes for the chariot's cold ones 93 and 42, and dark steeds from dark rider units on page 91 and 41.
Character mounts and unit mounts don't always share the same rules (see ripperdactyl).

-Matt

OK, I see what you are saying and agree with you. I believe it was a mistake on their part but that doesn't matter. I will also never run a cauldron in with cold one knights Lol.

Remember all it requires is 1 Cold one within 6" of the Cauldron. I can see this happening.