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Powerguy wrote:
I think the biggest trap people fall into when running big unit of Centurions (which are a pretty scary ranged unit no matter how you do it) is running the entire unit with Grav Cannons. The thing is that Grav Cannons aren't actually that scary against non MEQ or MC units, wounding on 4's/5's/6's isn't that impressive and without the Tau support Commander AP2 means nothing to large horde units which have cover most of the time. Part of the reason Centurions are popular is because 3 with Grav Cannons can kill basically any MC in the game and wreck most units of MEQ, so if you are running a bigger unit you have no reason to take more of the same thing. Mixing in some Missile Launchers and Hurricane Bolters makes the unit much more flexible.

If you are recommending 2-3 grav + 1 other then I could agree but 3/3 would be wasting the firepower no matter what you shoot at. BTW the grav cannons with amps and hurricane bolters is murder against anything and everything. If you want actual anti horde then you should be bringing a TFC or some flamers.

Asmodai Asmodean wrote:

BlkTom wrote:Centurions do not make a deathstar. When your entire unit is killed by something like a Vindicator, you will know why this doesn't work.

This kind of idiocy clearly comes from people who've never used vindicators against centurions before.

This kind of idiocy comes from someone who has never played a game based on chance apparently. You remove their biggest advantage (2+, T5) and they are vulnerable to Insta death just like everyone else. And people take these types of weapons due to the bike craze in 6th ed, so they are not uncommon. A super expensive HQ (or two) does not make it better because your turning a the unit into a point sink. When you still have to have 2-3 more units (troop choices, including allies) that, you know, actually score, that you still have to field to even make this work. On top of that, the HQ that your banking this all on is to roll a psychic power to cover their biggest weakness, that your at best a 50% chance to get, that he can fail to cast. Just saying. That is just way to much 'what if' for a unit that even with that power can be taken out by a single shot by a 125pt unit that is in every power armor codex. We are not talking IG arty, Rending Eldar, or Tau rail guns either.

Don't get all hot and bothered over the new shiny in the new codex. Just because it is new doesn't make it better, it makes it different.

Since you remain unconvinced let me spell it out for you:

1) Their biggest advantage isn't 2+ T5, it's shooting 15-20 times with re-rolls to wound/pen, twin-linked and ignoring cover with an attached commander if necessary.
Their lack of the save is the biggest weakness and this is why you get somebody with a 3++ or 4++ to stand in front and tank wounds.

2) A Vindicator gets 1 shot that isn't twin-linked and can't ignore cover. It will get one shot off at maximum before the Centurions blow it to bits, this is if it even gets to shoot since the Centurions can also get twin-linked tank hunter ignores cover missiles which can shoot it before it gets close.

3) The aformentioned Chapter Master attached to the squad can blow it up on first turn with his twin-linked, ignores cover, tank hunter Orbital Bombardment AP1 template on the first turn.

4) The odds of getting any power with Tigurius are 80%. The odds of him failing to cast a power are 1/36. The odds of getting the powers you need with a Tau commander are 100%.

Zambro wrote:
I played my first game with them, and i was also against them, so i saw how they played on both sides of the table.

Personally, i was underwhelmed. They WILL kill a whole squad, each turn with grav. but they die incredibly easily - well, as easily as a 2+ armour allows. Not to mention them being a massive target, and such a big point drop.

I've had two games with them so far, and I like them well enough. People tend to over exaggerate how easily they die. The first game was against Chaos marines and they did really well without losing a single model. The 2nd game was against Necrons, and the results were a bit more realistic. They absorbed huge amounts of fire over 4 turns, taking approximately 8 hits from Imhotek's lightning strikes, and about 25-30 Tesla hits before succumbing. During that time, they immobilized an Annihilation Barge, destroyed a Ghost Ark, and stripped 2 wounds off of Imhotek.

I think the ideal size is 4 with an omniscope. This allows you to outfit one with TL lascannons and ML for longer range tank hunting. This worked really well for me using just 3, but a 4th one would just really enhance the gravcannons' impact, as 15 shots really is the magic number. Expensive? Yes, but I think they can be really effective.

 ClassicCarraway wrote:

Zambro wrote:
I played my first game with them, and i was also against them, so i saw how they played on both sides of the table.

Personally, i was underwhelmed. They WILL kill a whole squad, each turn with grav. but they die incredibly easily - well, as easily as a 2+ armour allows. Not to mention them being a massive target, and such a big point drop.

I've had two games with them so far, and I like them well enough. People tend to over exaggerate how easily they die. The first game was against Chaos marines and they did really well without losing a single model. The 2nd game was against Necrons, and the results were a bit more realistic. They absorbed huge amounts of fire over 4 turns, taking approximately 8 hits from Imhotek's lightning strikes, and about 25-30 Tesla hits before succumbing. During that time, they immobilized an Annihilation Barge, destroyed a Ghost Ark, and stripped 2 wounds off of Imhotek.

I think the ideal size is 4 with an omniscope. This allows you to outfit one with TL lascannons and ML for longer range tank hunting. This worked really well for me using just 3, but a 4th one would just really enhance the gravcannons' impact, as 15 shots really is the magic number. Expensive? Yes, but I think they can be really effective.

I'm certain they can be made to work, but i dislike them. For 250 points i'd rather have more bikes, tbh.

Zambro wrote:

 ClassicCarraway wrote:

Zambro wrote:
I played my first game with them, and i was also against them, so i saw how they played on both sides of the table.

Personally, i was underwhelmed. They WILL kill a whole squad, each turn with grav. but they die incredibly easily - well, as easily as a 2+ armour allows. Not to mention them being a massive target, and such a big point drop.

I've had two games with them so far, and I like them well enough. People tend to over exaggerate how easily they die. The first game was against Chaos marines and they did really well without losing a single model. The 2nd game was against Necrons, and the results were a bit more realistic. They absorbed huge amounts of fire over 4 turns, taking approximately 8 hits from Imhotek's lightning strikes, and about 25-30 Tesla hits before succumbing. During that time, they immobilized an Annihilation Barge, destroyed a Ghost Ark, and stripped 2 wounds off of Imhotek.

I think the ideal size is 4 with an omniscope. This allows you to outfit one with TL lascannons and ML for longer range tank hunting. This worked really well for me using just 3, but a 4th one would just really enhance the gravcannons' impact, as 15 shots really is the magic number. Expensive? Yes, but I think they can be really effective.

I'm certain they can be made to work, but i dislike them. For 250 points i'd rather have more bikes, tbh.

Go ahead, bring more bikes so I can 1 shot them with my Dev Cents while I laugh off your return fire.

Asmodai Asmodean wrote:

Zambro wrote:

 ClassicCarraway wrote:

Zambro wrote:
I played my first game with them, and i was also against them, so i saw how they played on both sides of the table.

Personally, i was underwhelmed. They WILL kill a whole squad, each turn with grav. but they die incredibly easily - well, as easily as a 2+ armour allows. Not to mention them being a massive target, and such a big point drop.

I've had two games with them so far, and I like them well enough. People tend to over exaggerate how easily they die. The first game was against Chaos marines and they did really well without losing a single model. The 2nd game was against Necrons, and the results were a bit more realistic. They absorbed huge amounts of fire over 4 turns, taking approximately 8 hits from Imhotek's lightning strikes, and about 25-30 Tesla hits before succumbing. During that time, they immobilized an Annihilation Barge, destroyed a Ghost Ark, and stripped 2 wounds off of Imhotek.

I think the ideal size is 4 with an omniscope. This allows you to outfit one with TL lascannons and ML for longer range tank hunting. This worked really well for me using just 3, but a 4th one would just really enhance the gravcannons' impact, as 15 shots really is the magic number. Expensive? Yes, but I think they can be really effective.

I'm certain they can be made to work, but i dislike them. For 250 points i'd rather have more bikes, tbh.

Go ahead, bring more bikes so I can 1 shot them with my Dev Cents while I laugh off your return fire.

Yeah, but for 250 points, i can get pretty much 2 units of grav gun totting bikes. Yes, you'll gun down a squad, but the following squad will hit you with their grav guns and wipe you out. Thats assuming i drive into your face. Why would i do that?

The way i play is more tactically. I value speed and smart attacks over sheer strength. Sure, i made the cents work when i used them (they were area denial, protecting my TFCs from the DP alpha strike), but it's not my style

How are your grav guns going to wipe me out? You have 6 shots, hit with four, and wound with 3.6. I take my invulns and you've dealt one wound.

My return fire massacres you.

Centurions don't have invuns...

and factor in the rest of the bike squad's shooting, another Cent falls.

So you have one guy left with a single wound, or nothing at all if you round that .6 to another wound.

so yeah, Bikes win.

and to be completely honest, the only time ive fought Grav cents they killed a single Annihilation Barge, so they honestly don't seem to do that much.

 IHateNids wrote:
Centurions don't have invuns...

and factor in the rest of the bike squad's shooting, another Cent falls.

So you have one guy left with a single wound, or nothing at all if you round that .6 to another wound.

so yeah, Bikes win.

and to be completely honest, the only time ive fought Grav cents they killed a single Annihilation Barge, so they honestly don't seem to do that much.

Clearly you didn't read the bit in the thread about tanking with a 3++ shield CM or 4+ FNP tau commander.

One grav-amp centurion is functionally equal to four grav gun bikers.

Yes, let's give anectodal evidence, because that's far superior to mathhammer.

erm, Bikes are more than fast enough to be shooting you in the back, so will mitigate anyone at the front tanking.

and Mathhammerwise, they still dont do much.

10 shots, so 7 hits, then 6s glance+ immobilise, so 2 of those after rerolls. Then jink/any other cover, and oh look, a result that will not remove the fact that this weapon kills you next turn, or that cant be undone the second an engineer walks past.

so yeah... not reallly up to much

I honestly think assault centurions have much more potential to kill things, despite what people say about them

 IHateNids wrote:
erm, Bikes are more than fast enough to be shooting you in the back, so will mitigate anyone at the front tanking.

and Mathhammerwise, they still dont do much.

10 shots, so 7 hits, then 6s glance+ immobilise, so 2 of those after rerolls. Then jink/any other cover, and oh look, a result that will not remove the fact that this weapon kills you next turn, or that cant be undone the second an engineer walks past.

so yeah... not reallly up to much

I honestly think assault centurions have much more potential to kill things, despite what people say about them

Errr... wat?

Nevermind the fact that the Centurions won't be alone on the table against a horde of bikes, "fast enough to shoot you in the back"? Do you even geometry?

And ten shots? Why are only two shooting? I thought this thread was about the Death star, not the almost-depleted-squad. And, by the way, two immobilised results will destroy pretty much any vehicle in the game.

Try this instead:

Four guys shooting: 20 shots, 13 hits. Re-roll misses for a total of 17 hits. Three sixes, re-roll for another two. No cover save. That's any vehicle dead.

But, hey, lets try three guys against bikers. Gravs and missiles. Two guys at one squad, one split fires at the other.

Two guys: 10 shots, 9 hits after re-rolls. 8 wounds after re-rolls. No saves. Let's not even bother with the missiles because the squad is gone.

Other guy then kills four or five from the other bike squad.


With no support, the Centurions are kinda hit-or-miss. But properly tooled they can be really obnoxious.

Thud wrote:

 IHateNids wrote:
erm, Bikes are more than fast enough to be shooting you in the back, so will mitigate anyone at the front tanking.

and Mathhammerwise, they still dont do much.

10 shots, so 7 hits, then 6s glance+ immobilise, so 2 of those after rerolls. Then jink/any other cover, and oh look, a result that will not remove the fact that this weapon kills you next turn, or that cant be undone the second an engineer walks past.

so yeah... not reallly up to much

I honestly think assault centurions have much more potential to kill things, despite what people say about them

Errr... wat?

Nevermind the fact that the Centurions won't be alone on the table against a horde of bikes, "fast enough to shoot you in the back"? Do you even geometry?

And ten shots? Why are only two shooting? I thought this thread was about the Death star, not the almost-depleted-squad. And, by the way, two immobilised results will destroy pretty much any vehicle in the game.

Try this instead:

Four guys shooting: 20 shots, 13 hits. Re-roll misses for a total of 17 hits. Three sixes, re-roll for another two. No cover save. That's any vehicle dead.

But, hey, lets try three guys against bikers. Gravs and missiles. Two guys at one squad, one split fires at the other.

Two guys: 10 shots, 9 hits after re-rolls. 8 wounds after re-rolls. No saves. Let's not even bother with the missiles because the squad is gone.

Other guy then kills four or five from the other bike squad.


With no support, the Centurions are kinda hit-or-miss. But properly tooled they can be really obnoxious.

Thank you brother from saving me having a rant.

I would love to see an opponent set up a 400-600 point centurion devastator squad. Those grav cannons don't quite have the range to threaten me unless I let them, and yeah, while they'll murderize anything in that range, I can still largely ignore them until the actually workhorses of his army go down. Admittedly, i've not played against them yet, but on paper, they look a bit meh, considering this "shooty deathstar" tag they've been given.

Admittedly, i've not played against them yet, but on paper, they look a bit meh, considering this "shooty deathstar" tag they've been given.

The most important part of the quote folks.

They said the same thing about Riptides... Wraithknights... and kitted out DPs...

You know what all of those have in common? Range.

They either shoot far away, or have the ability to move fast to get to shoot far away. Dev Centurions have neither.

Polecat wrote:
You know what all of those have in common? Range.

They either shoot far away, or have the ability to move fast to get to shoot far away. Dev Centurions have neither.

Turn one: I'm in the dead centre of the table? Wait, how did I get there? Joined Khan to the unit, scouted, and moved in T1.

I shoot six t/l missiles w/ ignores cover at one target, and an orbital bombardment with the same extras at another.

And for later turns; I don't think a lot of people realize that 24" is actually a pretty decent range for a midfield unit.

Wanna see for yourself? Get out a piece of paper, a ruler and a pair of compasses. Make a rectangle that is in the dimensions of 1x1.5. Set the radius on the compasses to 0.5 (equivalent to the distance between the centre and the long edge). Then draw a circle. The inside of that circle is what the centurions can draw range to by turn one, with their grav guns.

Khan doesn't give Scout to Centurions, so that doesn't work.

You could get them LR DT and then move them 12" by turn one, but it gets really expensive really fast.

How are you shooting six t/l missiles with ignores cover, twice? Centurions can't do that.

Khan gives scouts to himself. He's an IC. He can join units. He joins Centurions during deployment. Scouts only needs one model in the unit to have it for it to work.

I'm not shooting six missiles twice. "The same extras" referred to twin-linked and ignores cover. This comes from the Tau Commander.

Ah, ok I see what you mean now. Khan on bike + Tau commander joins a unit of six Dev Cents with missile launchers.

Yes, plus a Chapter Master that tanks.

Pros of that unit is that it can take a lot of damage, can get to midfield faster, can hit and run from CC (from the Tau Commander), can deliver a serious alpha strike, and can be counted on to do its job.

The con, of course, is the ridiculous cost. Close to 1,000 points for the whole gang.

I quite like it as unit.

1000 points in one unit. Ugh. I don't doubt it's scary and obnoxious and the SM finally have a proper deathstar of their own, but anyone with decent mobility or outflanking potential can get around your ICs and hit your actual firepower.

The problem isn't range, per se. It's the relative lack of mobility of the unit. If you can't predict your opponent's movement and setup accordingly, your ridiculously expensive unit can be left stranded somewhere in the no-man's land with no way to target the crucial parts of your opponent's army.

Asmodai Asmodean wrote:

anonymou5 wrote:

Asmodai Asmodean wrote:
This is better:

Two units of grav-amp centurions: one with allied Tau commander with all the chip wizardry, iridium, shield generator and stimulant to tank with 2+ 4++ 5+ FNP. Shield Drones optional.

The other with Tigurius and a Chapter Master on a Bike with either a storm shield or Shield Eternal ( not that much that IDs t5 at range, but you want to be able to avoid getting smashed) to tank with a 2+ 3++.

Don't forget to put your CM with the buff commander on turn one to drop that Orbital Bombardment with re-rolls to hit, ignores cover, tank hunter/ monster hunter. FIRST BLOOD!

The problem with using the Bike Master to tank is that a savvy opponent can use focus fire to avoid him, as he will often have a better cover safe. I think the best version is with the Tau Commander, although it hurts me to say.

Wut. This makes no sense.

Bikes have jink, meaning he always has a cover save, and you can therefore focus fire on the ones without a cover save.

I like how the opposition has dwindled down to 'We can move away from them, so we'll win!'

Simple solution: Place your objectives where your opponent has to reach them.

If your WKs are running away you're paying 240 points for 2 Str10 shots a turn.

Even if you get them hit and run, the unit is very suceptible to being bogged down in close combat. Dev cents have close to no offensive output in close combat, and when you have 1000pts in one unit and no overwatch it is not very hard for the opponent to get something in combat with them.

I think grav-cents are good, but I don`t really see the point in going deathstar with them. Why not go 3x3 for cheaper? Much better firepower output because they can take out up to 6 units vs the 2 of the deathstar, much better table coverage, much less hassle to have them tied up in close combat.

 Illumini wrote:
Even if you get them hit and run, the unit is very suceptible to being bogged down in close combat. Dev cents have close to no offensive output in close combat, and when you have 1000pts in one unit and no overwatch it is not very hard for the opponent to get something in combat with them.

The Chapter Master is there to challenge out pesky sergeants, and hit and run with I5 means only 1/6 chance of not getting out and then obliterating whatever charged them. Not to mention that a 1000 point unit obviously needs to have the entire list built around it, which would include screening units and thunderfires to thin out hordes before they get too close.

I don't think the Centurion Death Star is unbeatable or anything like that, but I don't think there are any easy ways to get around it. Simply assaulting it with anything isn't going to cut it as the Chapter Master will do some serious damage, and unless the charging unit has AP2, it won't really kill many Centurions. And if it does have the sort of CC output that butchers Centurions it is likely a death star itself, which would make it the top priority for the Centurions to take out.

I think grav-cents are good, but I don`t really see the point in going deathstar with them. Why not go 3x3 for cheaper? Much better firepower output because they can take out up to 6 units vs the 2 of the deathstar, much better table coverage, much less hassle to have them tied up in close combat.

I see your point, and can see some of the upsides of straight up going for Centurion saturation, but that would again leave them open to the vulnerabilities that have been pointed out all over this thread. Including your own. A three-man Cent unit can be assaulted by pretty much anything and be bogged down forever unless they are bailed out, or they can be shot to death by Wraithknights or Vindicators, or just make them take enough saves to fall over. And they don't get the extreme alpha strike which, in my opinion, is one of the biggest advantages of the death star build.

Didn`t know characteristic tests were highest in unit, that makes it much better.

Still, this feels like the paladin star with more firepower, but very beatable in melee. It still has the same issues of not being able to kill more than a few units over the course of the game. It can probably work pretty well, like the paladinstar, but I`m not at all convinced it is the best way to go with the new SM

Best way with new SM? No, I don't think so either. White Scars bikers with proper support is, IMO, definitely better.

 Illumini wrote:
A vindicator would get 2-3 hits, cover is fairly easy to get, Tiggy has a decent chance of getting 4++, and you should have an EW tank with 3++ save up front, meaning you are probably looking at 1 wound or something like that.

I think close combat units give this squad much bigger problems. Charge some gaunts in from an angle where the attached HQ can`t contribute, and you have locked the entire thing down. God forbid a fearless horde unit charges in, then it is stuck for the rest of the match.

This. An infiltrating Plague Zombie blob starting 18" away will get the charge on T2 most likely, and lock them up for the entire game.

Yep, properly supported they may not be a deathstar, but definitely a key contributor.