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I've been trying to make all kinds of lists but my biggest problem seems to be how to run the troops (tac squads). What in your opinion are the most effective ways of running tac squads? (From the 6th Ed space marine codex)

What are you trying to do and what chapter traits? I like:
- Salamander drop pod army is effective with minimum 5 man with twin linked flamers with the sarge combi and some Gunline with heavy weapons. Since 5 man each have a sarge that's that many more mastercrafted per Sallie CT.

What are your chapter tactics and what kind of list are you running? An UM tactical squad will look different from an IH tactical squad.

Ninja'd

With Sicarius, I use two Tactical Squads that can benefit from his Battle-forged Heroes rule and Ultramarines Chapter Tactics.

10 Marines
-Melta Gun
-Lascannon
-Rhino

10 Marines
-Plasma Gun
-Heavy Bolter
-Rhino

I could leave the Lascannon in the back and throw the Rhino with Melta Gun guy forward if I give a unit Tank Hunters.. I can use the Tactical rule to help my Plasma Gun/Heavy Bolter squad shoot that anti-infantry fire better.. And I can use the Devastator rule when they're about to be charged since the unit has a bunch of shots. Infiltrating/Scouting either unit is also a fun choice.

So it's a good idea to always take a heavy weapon and combat squad? Groups of 5 don't seem durable enough to withstand the firepower of most armies. The chapter tactics I'm most interested in is ultra marines and imperial fists.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also when do you want to take the sergeant upgrade? Always or special circumstances or what?

mjo2892 wrote:
So it's a good idea to always take a heavy weapon and combat squad? Groups of 5 don't seem durable enough to withstand the firepower of most armies. The chapter tactics I'm most interested in is ultra marines and imperial fists.

How is one squad of ten more durable that two squads of five?

The basics to start with is melta bombs on the sergeant. almost no reason not to.

Iv been leaning towards 5 man squads in rhinos. hiding for late game objective grabs. usually with a melta gun as a back up against enemy land raiders and stuff.

More bodies to tank for the special weapons in the squad


Automatically Appended Next Post:
And by sergeant upgrade I meant ld 9 or leave em as 8

I frequently give my sarges a combi weapon, but I think any other points spent on them is a waste. Ld9 isn't worth 10 points when you already get ATSKNF for free, and melta bombs are fine if you have extra points, but you'll almost never actually use them.

I use Raven Guard CT so I like to run my TAC squads in rhinos but I kit them out with a grav gun and upgrade to the Vet. Sgt. and give him a grav pistol. I also like to take a 5 man tac squad in a drop pod and drop them right by anything with a 2+ save and let them go to town with their grav weapons.

I guess it really comes down to your play style and what you are using your TACs for.

So basically Whatever the rest if your army lacks in, you kit the tac squads to fill that role?

It really depends on your list and how you play it.

If your dumping all of your points in a 1850 tourney list in elites, fast, and heavy and throwing like 400-500 points at troop choices, you want them hanging back taking pot shots with their heavy weapon and using their special as a defensive weapon. If you spend no points on them, then all your asking them to do is objective camp and survive. At this point, you might not even have Tactical squads or maybe just one squad and scouts for other troop choices. This is normally the case where your list is built around a aspect of the book (Terminators, TFC, Drop Pod Sternguard, ect) or a certain chapter tactics.

If your list is 1000+ points worth of troops, your attacking and being aggressive with your tactical squads and the rest of your list is supporting them. Your probably running bikes as troops at this point or your Tactical squads are in transports to get them closer. Your special weapon is meant for attack and your sarge might even be kitted out, specially if you have a HQ joining the squad to give it extra beef for possible melee situations. Special pistols or combi-bolters are also considered at this point because you will be close enough to use them. A list like this might be considered a spam list, where you are saying 'I don't think you can stop 50 marines and 5 Rhinos/Razorbacks being rammed down your throat'.

If your list is built with a even split, say around 750pts to 900pts worth of troops, your asking your Tactical squads to do more, but to not shoulder the full weight of winning you a match. Your using them as a pinning force to soak fire and take the attention of an enemy unit why a elite, fast, or heavy cripples it. The Tactical then mops up what is left either with a charge or through shooting. Then it comes down to your skill as a player to make your opponent worry about the tactical squad because they pose a threat to their unit. Fear of a charge or of a special weapon or a boat-load of bolter shots can do this, depending on who your facing.

The real question you have to ask yourself is what do you want them to do? Then are you giving them enough points to do what your asking?

Everybody is still suggesting either 5 or 10 man squads... With them costing the exact same amount of points regardless and no need to take full squads to get the heavy/special weapons, I really don't see very many reasons to stick to those numbers for straight tactical squads. Has anybody been experimenting with 6-8 man squads dedicated to a specific special or heavy weapon to see if just a couple extra bodies is more efficient?

 Awesomesauce wrote:
Everybody is still suggesting either 5 or 10 man squads... With them costing the exact same amount of points regardless and no need to take full squads to get the heavy/special weapons, I really don't see very many reasons to stick to those numbers for straight tactical squads.

I think there are a few valid reasons to stick with 10 man squads:

1) 1 Troop slot for two troops after combat squatting.
2) You still have to have 10 guys to get both a special and a heavy weapon.
3) With the split roles of special/heavy weapons you get two combat squads with semi-specialized roles.
4) More ablative bodies before you have to remove the special and heavy weapon.

In my meta the only reason to take 5 man squads is to satisfy the minimum requirement for your two troops while saving points to spend on the other stuff.

Has anybody been experimenting with 6-8 man squads dedicated to a specific special or heavy weapon to see if just a couple extra bodies is more efficient?

I have been running a 6 man squad with either a melta and combi-melta or a flamer and combi-flamer.

I am a fan of the Razorback. I know it gets some hate since the Heavy Bolter version went up in price, but the AC and LC versions stayed the same and those are the variants I have always enjoyed running. The Razorback cannot camp on objectives, but it does a good job doing the work that the Heavy Weapon Combat Squad would normally do for me and more.

A heavy weapon combat squad gives you one heavy weapon shooting from a stationary location. The combat squad doesn't really do anything else to support the other half of their unit. It is stuck in whatever location you deploy them in unless you give up a turn of shooting. This also means that for a good portion of the game your Bolters on the 4 other guys are wasted since you are usually further back to protect your Heavy Weapon.

A Razorback gives you a mobile fire platform that can relocate fairly easy, stay in close support of your squad with the Sgt and special weapon, provide mobile cover for them (even after it gets wrecked) and the heavy weapon is twin-linked as well). If you normally give your whole squad a Rhino (only to transport 5 guys around since your Heavy Weapon squad is usually staying behind to shoot) it is even more points effective.

Looking at my usual squad layout I get these point costs:

10 man Tactical Squad with Melta and Lascannon: 170 (205 if you take a Rhino)
6 man Tactical Squad with Melta and TL-Lascannon Razorback: 169

For the same price I take 4 stationary guys with a heavy weapon and replace them with a twin-linked heavy weapon and transport for the other 6 guys so they don't have to walk across the battlefield, cover for them to hide behind after they get out. Having 6 guys in your squad instead of 5 also means that you get to take one more wound before you have to remove your special weapon (depending on positioning) or one more "look out sir!" roll.

There's not much I can say without regurgitating the thread I made a while back, but I'm going to reiterate my opposition to the main points made already.

First of all, a few months back I took a list that spammed Tactical Marines (45 with 4 full and one combat squad) in Rhinos with a plasma gun in each. The key lesson I learned was that investing that many points into a mediocre set of units that folds like wet tracing paper in a tournament environment that doesn't put out a lot of effective fire is a terrible, terrible idea. Rhino rush is long dead. With 1000 points invested in them there wasn't enough effective support assets to beat armies that minimised points wasted on less effective scoring units and instead took units designed to cripple the opponent. In game 4 having the objectives was all well and good until a pair of Storm Talons and a Storm Raven wiped every unit holding them off in the next 3 turns unmolested; I had 3 AA units that shot down two of his flyers already too.

The Razorback just costs too much and using it to make a squad mobile at a moment's notice is a fake fantasy. It will die very quickly and probably early if it was a threat, and fact is, it would take 3-4 turns to get a heavy weapon full BS active in another location travelling by transport. In the early game, that means that you probably made a dumb mistake (or you're making one by sacrificing 3 turns worth of fire) or in the late game (providing the unlikely scenario in which it actually survives occurs) you're relying on chance that the game continues. Devastator Lascan squads or Tri-Las Predators work far better as fire support.

I feel the urge to spontaneously vomit whenever people take heavy bolters or single melta guns in Tactical Squads. They have far too specific use, aren't even effective, require favourable circumstances and in the case of the latter waste the firepower of the rest of the squad.

 Mr.Omega wrote:


I feel the urge to spontaneously vomit whenever people take heavy bolters or single melta guns in Tactical Squads.

If I played with you, I would do this to see if you would puke.

Sorry this is a little off topic but I dont think it warrents its own thread. I just got the new codex and im just trying to make sure that im reading the chapter tactics rules correctly.

If I choose the Ultramarines chapter tactics then I can elect to have ALL my tac squads reroll hits for an entire turn (until I choose it again or a new one the next turn) correct?

 Billagio wrote:
Sorry this is a little off topic but I dont think it warrents its own thread. I just got the new codex and im just trying to make sure that im reading the chapter tactics rules correctly.

If I choose the Ultramarines chapter tactics then I can elect to have ALL my tac squads reroll hits for an entire turn (until I choose it again or a new one the next turn) correct?

Once per game, at the start of your turn, you choose to use your Chapter Tactics. Ultramarine Tactical Chapter Tactics allow all models in your detachment to re-roll 1s to hit, and Tactical Squads re-roll all misses. Do note that you can only ever re-roll a dice once, so if you have Twin Linked on something you choose either the Chapter Tactics or the Twin-Linked to re-roll.

And no, not to far off subject.

Oh its only once per game? I thought it was once per turn.


edit: nevermind I see where it says once per game. I cant read well I guess :/

If it was every turn, it would be crazy overpowered.

I have been very impressed with the lowly, humble tac squad in a rhino with the new codex. If you get one turn of movement it sets Ultramarines up very well for their tactical doctrine turn. It blocks line of sight to your marines while they're inside it or (if it hasn't Exploded) while they're behind it. Even if it does Explode (and, frankly, it will) you can still get a 5+ cover that you put right where you needed it. Getting to run up 18" on turn 1 can be nice, and it can also allow tacs to grab objectives if any rhinos are still moving on turn 5.

If you're going to use tacs, they MUST be 5 or 10. If you're paying for anything beyond the minimum, you should just go all the way, because combat squads are excellent. I have been using 3 x 10 and 1 x 5 and have been happy to combat squad the 10's every time (bar KP games). Being able to share a transport when taken as a 10 man unit is a huge boon and is the primary reason to choose, say, 3 x 10 over 6 x 5 (although, of course, there are advantages if you're giving EVERY 5 man unit it's own transport).

Bikers may well be better over all as SM troops choices, but an all-biker army will be very outnumbered, so most armies (I suspect) will want a combination of tacs and bikes and (at least for Ultramarines) the tactical squad in a rhino is seriously undervalued as a threat.

I feel the urge to spontaneously vomit whenever people take heavy bolters or single melta guns in Tactical Squads. They have far too specific use, aren't even effective, require favourable circumstances and in the case of the latter waste the firepower of the rest of the squad.

I had a question on what heavy weapon you recommend for anti-infantry use. I use IF chapter tactics and feel that the HB blends well with the boltguns that are in the rest of the squad. Lascannons are a mismatch for the rest of the tac squad as bolters will have no effect on armor and with the IF tactics i feel silly not taking the Lascannons with my dev squads to get tank hunter.

 tomjoad wrote:


Bikers may well be better over all as SM troops choices, but an all-biker army will be very outnumbered, so most armies (I suspect) will want a combination of tacs and bikes and (at least for Ultramarines) the tactical squad in a rhino is seriously undervalued as a threat.

^This. Because of the footprint of bikers, you run into serious diminishing returns when trying to go beyond 25-30 models. They're not THAT tough and you need to have room to be cagey with them when the situation calls for it. That's when 1-2 reserved tactical squads in Rhinos really shine. You can be agressive with your bikes knowing that later on, those Rhinos come in and flat out towards objectives. In missions like Emperor's Will (or their tournament equivalents), you can reserve one tac squad but deploy its Rhino for LOS blocking shenanigans for the bikes. For 35 points, there's just so many things you can do with a Rhino. Kill points, sure, it'll cost you a couple over the course of a tournament. But if you're playing Purge the Alien, use your noggin and work around it.

God forbid we don't blanket dismiss a unit because it's not the shiny new thing and instead encourage the use of tactics.

Also something to consider is that for the purposes of morale tests against shooting you need either 5 or 9 marines. That means that at 5 marines, you need to lose 2 to force a test, but to increase the number of marines you need to lose to force that test up to 3, you need at leas 9 marines. I admit that most people dont worry overmuch about morale tests when you have ATSKNF, but if you fail a break test and fall back in shooting you can lose ground which can tactically be used to do things like deny you assault/melta range, or to push you off an objective.

When taking a combi weapon, I'm worried about the overheat killing my Vet and losing LD9. Would it be dumb to consider a combi grav paired with a plasma gun?

So long as he doesn't move when shooting it should be fine for a one shot.

Otherwise combi plasma with sally tactics would be neat (master crafted boo-ya)

 Desubot wrote:


Otherwise combi plasma with sally tactics would be neat (master crafted boo-ya)

Yeah, that would be very potent.
I'm running BT CT, so there is no real bonus to any special weapon but keeping my Squad Leader alive to munch things in challenges is a plus.

Because of the Salvo on Grav, I feel a Grav Pistol beats out a Combi-Grav on a normal sarge. Combi-Grav on a bike is worth it because of the Relentless, your always getting those 3 shots. I think Combi-Plas and Combi-Meltas still have a place due to their different rules (if they are within 12" your plasma is getting 2 shots, your melta will always be a melta, so on and so forth). I just find myself in more situations that I need more than a round of shooting from a Combi, and having a pistol doesn't seem to kill me as often because there isn't that much of a difference in range. Besides, I like having it on the Over-watch or moving up 6" and laying into them, then charging.

If you Sarge is hanging back with your heavy weapon, then your probably wasting the points either way.

With the Salamander Master Crafted Tactical, I would have to argue at that point a master crafted Plasma Pistol would be better than a master crafted combi-plasma IMO. Anything that gives a consistent re-roll is good for a full time plasma weapon.

I play IF tactics, so it has shaped my Tac squads just a bit.

1 tac squad with drop pod. 10 guys, Melta gun, Multi melta. This is my suicide anti tank squad. Unless I can deploy out of the pod out of los from all but the one unit i am about to burn.
1 Tac squad Heavy Bolter Plasma gun. Rhino. Plasma for those pesky high armor guys and the rest of the bolters get rerolling ones.... so I actually get one extra bolter shot to play with and a plasma rifle. moar bullets.

I save my missle launchers, las cannons and plasma cannons for my dev squads. My current list has 2 dev squads, 4 ml in one and 2 las and 2 plas in the other.

I also (possibly to my detriment) put 2 heavy bolters in my sternguard squad and one in a scout squad in a lss with mm. I am going for the whole more dakka effect. more dice rolled to hit, more hits, more wounds. MAYBE.

otherwise, I tend to use scouts for scoring. i put 5 scouts with a hb on the board for less points then a base no upgrads 5 man tac....where is the bad? Oh armor and shooting is lower....true, but more bodies?

I play with IF Chapter tactics and I seem to have rather good success with 10 man squads. Sgt. with Combi-plasma and melta-bombs with Plasma Gun and a Plasma Cannon as special and heavy weapons. Loading them up in a Rhino as a transport for 230 pts.

With a Rhino they advance toward there objective rather quickly. The large amount of Plasma risky as it is insures that the squad can deal with heavy infantry,MCs and most walkers that might be contesting the objective. The Plasma Cannon is in my experience also rather good at stopping hostile transports. Just another idea for the Thread.