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So forgeworld has dropped the new 107 Rules:

http://www.forgeworld.co.uk/Downloads/Product/PDF/R/Rvarna.pdf

Seems pretty absurd, With nova charge it can put out a comfortable 12 S8 AP3 wounds on an MC or vehicle and anything close, Has a 4+ natural invul from shooting and +1t and W from a regular riptide, losing only Jet status and secondary weapons. But being able to put out 4 AP3 large blasts for ~70 pts more than a riptide with multiple wounds against some units seems crazy.

What are your takes on it?

There is an entire three page thread about this already.

I love the look of the gun, hate the rules for them. I expect them to go through some serious revisions before they become 40k approved.

Where did you get the idea it can put out 12 S8 AP3 wounds on an MC or vehicle comfortably? From the rules I read it can put out 12 shots comfortably. With BS3 Scatter, it will probably maybe only hit 2-3 of them, and then needs to roll to wound, so you are looking at 5-8 wounds on average perhaps, not 12.

 Godless-Mimicry wrote:
Where did you get the idea it can put out 12 S8 AP3 wounds on an MC or vehicle comfortably? From the rules I read it can put out 12 shots comfortably. With BS3 Scatter, it will probably maybe only hit 2-3 of them, and then needs to roll to wound, so you are looking at 5-8 wounds on average perhaps, not 12.

Overreactive Math. Assume the most broken combination, exaggerate the probability, come to a crazy conclusion.

The gist in the other thread at least is that it will become the new home for O'Vesa and the Buffmander.

With a lack of gets hot and an effective -2.5 on scatter (5" blast) and the size of vehicles it wouldnt be even close to a stretch to consider all 4 blasts hitting a vehicle.

Jakobokaj wrote:
With a lack of gets hot and an effective -2.5 on scatter (5" blast) and the size of vehicles it wouldnt be even close to a stretch to consider all 4 blasts hitting a vehicle.

Yet you assume it will pass its NOVA Reactor test.

i cant tell if that gun is broken or meh lol. Sounds crazy but its 260pts for that thing, and its AP3 so no anti-termie or bonus vehicle pen damage.

The model is so damn scary though lol.

Interesting its a Heavy choice instead of Elite, but theres no way someone is going to field 6 "Riptides" because of this lol. It would cost 1350pts for all 6 with only IA and EWO upgrades on the riptides. Not much room left for markerlights/troops/HQs lol

 Vineheart01 wrote:
i cant tell if that gun is broken or meh lol. Sounds crazy but its 260pts for that thing, and its AP3 so no anti-termie or bonus vehicle pen damage.

The model is so damn scary though lol.

Interesting its a Heavy choice instead of Elite, but theres no way someone is going to field 6 "Riptides" because of this lol. It would cost 1350pts for all 6 with only IA and EWO upgrades on the riptides. Not much room left for markerlights/troops/HQs lol

It has +1w, +1t, and a 4++ over standard riptides. Of course it's OP...

Slotting it into heavy means it doesn't even have to compete with riptides for FOC spots.

I'm extremely anti-FW for tournaments, and this unit is a dealbreaker for me. Unless you like gundam-40k and want to see armies with 4-8 riptides across from you.

Even if a tournament allows FW, the rules are still experimental. I highly doubt any tournament would allow experimental rules.

Right. But while the statline, weapons, and cost may change post-experimental phase, the heavy support designation is equally influential, perhaps even more so.

All I gotta say is FW better give Nids some serious love next year.

They should have named it the 108 R'Varna for maximum Tau = Asian references. Then given it the True Rune of Water and some power-tonfas.

And chaos daemons! Please.... well actually anything not pre-heresy. I dunno miss some of the goods! FW is fine in tournaments... that being said I personally feel that this, at the moment, could very possibly be broken. I can't say defenitively of course but it seems probable.

Consider this with an ethereal

in theory they could increase it to 8 large blasts

So any vehicle could get hit with, in theory, 24 str 8 shots? or any MC with 24 str 8 ap 3 shots?

toughness 7, with flechette (everything that charges into it BtB gets hit with a str 4 ap - hit?)

oh yeah and it still has a haywire nova effect if it needs too... and it's heavy so easily 6 now. with EWO

this thing can out damage a full missile side set, is more durable, and costs about the same.

yeah, it's super duper uber broken. it should be like 320 points.

 hyv3mynd wrote:
Unless you like gundam-40k and want to see armies with 4-8 riptides across from you.

You mean kind of like how no-FW games already work? Tau can already take as many Riptides and crisis suits as the point limit will allow, moving one or two of them to heavy support just lets you take more stealth suits (lol).


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Largo39 wrote:
in theory they could increase it to 8 large blasts

If you can somehow convince your opponent that the Ethereal's ability applies to a weapon that isn't listed under "pulse weapons" in the codex. And I can almost guarantee you that if they ever FAQ it the answer will be "no, of course you can't do something that obviously stupid".

So any vehicle could get hit with, in theory, 24 str 8 shots? or any MC with 24 str 8 ap 3 shots?

So let's assume that it magically rolls nothing but hits with those guns?

with flechette (everything that charges into it BtB gets hit with a str 4 ap - hit?)

So what? Anything that's going to charge a Riptide is going to laugh at STR 4 AP -, and a normal Riptide is probably going to do more damage with its overwatch. The flechettes are purely a fluff thing.

oh yeah and it still has a haywire nova effect if it needs too... and it's heavy so easily 6 now. with EWO

You mean the haywire effect that requires you to give up a 3++ or double shots with the main guns? Yeah, I can see people making that choice all the time...

this thing can out damage a full missile side set, is more durable, and costs about the same.

So can pretty much anything if you assume you're playing with loaded dice and always hit with every shot.

 Godless-Mimicry wrote:
Where did you get the idea it can put out 12 S8 AP3 wounds on an MC or vehicle comfortably? From the rules I read it can put out 12 shots comfortably. With BS3 Scatter, it will probably maybe only hit 2-3 of them, and then needs to roll to wound, so you are looking at 5-8 wounds on average perhaps, not 12.

It only ever makes 4 shots, each shot that hits a MC does 3 hits.

center all 4 Large blasts over the MCs and 1/3 are outright hits. then the blast can scatter 2.5" in any direction with the edge of the marker still in the center of the MC. add in the BS3 and you have a roll of 6 or less to still clip a 28 mm base(which is a hit); but MCs are on the largest bases(dread base, or oval) which adds at least another inch of scatter. That is 7" of scatter in any direction; that is 21 in 36 chance to still land your scattering large blast on target(or 58.33333%). Now we add together the fact that that is only 58% of 66%; which leads you to an overall 72.222% chance to get 3 hits per blast marker, or basically a 2/3(roughly) chance to have all 4 land for 12 hits.

This thing looks like it got lost on the way to Pacific Rim. The rules are too good for the points cost as well.

Whilst I'm probably going to get this, just for the kick ass model, I'm not 100% sold on the rules as they are, and its currently in heavy, which as an Enclave Player, I would have prefered it stay in elite, but what can you do?

Who cares its forge world. Stuffs not supposed to be balanced its supposed to be fun and awesome. Regular codexes are for balance.

 Kommissar Kel wrote:
Now we add together the fact that that is only 58% of 66%; which leads you to an overall 72.222% chance to get 3 hits per blast marker, or basically a 2/3(roughly) chance to have all 4 land for 12 hits.

Your math is completely wrong. If each shot has a 72% chance of hitting a MC then you have a 27% chance of hitting with all four shots.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 BeefCakeSoup wrote:
Who cares its forge world. Stuffs not supposed to be balanced its supposed to be fun and awesome. Regular codexes are for balance.

Err, lol? Since when have codices been balanced?

Jakobokaj wrote:
So forgeworld has dropped the new 107 Rules:

http://www.forgeworld.co.uk/Downloads/Product/PDF/R/Rvarna.pdf

Seems pretty absurd, With nova charge it can put out a comfortable 12 S8 AP3 wounds on an MC or vehicle and anything close, Has a 4+ natural invul from shooting and +1t and W from a regular riptide, losing only Jet status and secondary weapons. But being able to put out 4 AP3 large blasts for ~70 pts more than a riptide with multiple wounds against some units seems crazy.

What are your takes on it?

Sure you get +1T, +1 W, and +1 invunerable against shooting for no secondary weapon +1 AP, the inability to fire non-blasts (meaning no threat to fliers), and loses the ability to JSJ for +80 pts to the base cost. I'd say drop the increase in S against large targets (as extra hits are more than enough) and it would be fairly balanced as an anti-infantry unit. Also FW really needs learn how shooting works before it writes rules as a mixed unit clause seems very neccessary for cluster fire.

 BeefCakeSoup wrote:
Who cares its forge world. Stuffs not supposed to be balanced its supposed to be fun and awesome. Regular codexes are for balance.

Yeah ok, as opposed to
Helldrakes
Vendettas
Riptides
Wave Serpents
Dark Talon/Nephilim
Tau Codex Flyers
Hemlock Wraithfighter

If anything, FW is (slightly) more balanced than GW

 Tarrasq wrote:
I'd say drop the increase in S against large targets (as extra hits are more than enough) and it would be fairly balanced as an anti-infantry unit.

The increase in strength is necessary to make it at least worth attempting to shoot at vehicles occasionally. STR 8 isn't very good, but STR 6 effectively says "infantry only". If anything I'd keep the strength increase (and even make it bigger) and remove the extra hits, having the fluff of "bigger targets get hit more" represented by the better chance to wound/pen.

Also FW really needs learn how shooting works before it writes rules as a mixed unit clause seems very neccessary for cluster fire.

Actually it works just fine. The increased hits are done for each model hit. Mixed units don't require any special rules, if the template is over a 'small' model it's one hit, if it's over a 'big' model it's multiple hits.

It's the first anti-White Scars unit

Bikes are very bulky, so triple the number of hits you get against a bike unit. This will kill any bike unit you care to name every turn, pretty much guaranteed.

as if bikes needed to be easier to kill.

As this unit is a heavy support choice in Codex: Tau Empires; Can I choose to take it as a heavy support in my Farsight Enclaves supplement.

Then, I assume taking a ECPA (Good old Builders!) is a given, given the awesome potential for Nova ripple fire carnage.

Just a thought?

Edit: Does the automatic hit from its Haywire Ground Stomp hit flyers..? I know snap shooting and weapons that do not roll to hit, can't target a flyer but with an automatic hit? Cheers

Razerous wrote:
As this unit is a heavy support choice in Codex: Tau Empires; Can I choose to take it as a heavy support in my Farsight Enclaves supplement.

Then, I assume taking a ECPA (Good old Builders!) is a given, given the awesome potential for Nova ripple fire carnage.

Just a thought?

Edit: Does the automatic hit from its Haywire Ground Stomp hit flyers..? I know snap shooting and weapons that do not roll to hit, can't target a flyer but with an automatic hit? Cheers

Probably not, I believe there was a FAQ for autohit things don't hit fliers as they don't roll to hit.
But I could be wrong.

Razerous wrote:
As this unit is a heavy support choice in Codex: Tau Empires; Can I choose to take it as a heavy support in my Farsight Enclaves supplement.

Yes, because the Farsight supplement explicitly says that it uses the normal Tau army list except for the specific changes it makes.

Then, I assume taking a ECPA (Good old Builders!) is a given, given the awesome potential for Nova ripple fire carnage.

No, because the R'Varna is not a Riptide and the Farsight supplement only gives Riptides the ability to take the special systems (including the ECPA), not Riptides and anything vaguely similar to a Riptide that you want to take them on.

 Peregrine wrote:

Razerous wrote:
As this unit is a heavy support choice in Codex: Tau Empires; Can I choose to take it as a heavy support in my Farsight Enclaves supplement.

Yes, because the Farsight supplement explicitly says that it uses the normal Tau army list except for the specific changes it makes.

Then, I assume taking a ECPA (Good old Builders!) is a given, given the awesome potential for Nova ripple fire carnage.

No, because the R'Varna is not a Riptide and the Farsight supplement only gives Riptides the ability to take the special systems (including the ECPA), not Riptides and anything vaguely similar to a Riptide that you want to take them on.

Gotcha - its not a Riptide VX108... It's a different (but similiar) unit the XV107.

Cool, would've been terribad.

Yeah ok, as opposed to
Helldrakes
Vendettas
Riptides
Wave Serpents
Dark Talon/Nephilim
Tau Codex Flyers
Hemlock Wraithfighter

If anything, FW is (slightly) more balanced than GW

I mean, Drakes, Vendettas, Riptides, and Serpents are all great units, but DA, Tau, and Eldar flyers? Come on. The former stuff is overly efficient for the cost, but you seem to just have a problem with flyers. If anything, DA, Tau, and Eldar flyers are overcosted.

 JGrand wrote:
I mean, Drakes, Vendettas, Riptides, and Serpents are all great units, but DA, Tau, and Eldar flyers? Come on. The former stuff is overly efficient for the cost, but you seem to just have a problem with flyers. If anything, DA, Tau, and Eldar flyers are overcosted.

That's exactly the point. GW publishes blatantly overpowered units, and units that are so weak you can't imagine how GW thought anyone would use them. They clearly have no clue how to balance the game and/or no interest in even trying. FW has their own balance issues, but it's absurd to say they're any worse than GW's consistent pattern of awful balance.