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since when does riptide`s bs matter? if I`ll ever shot something as powerful as this, at least 4-6 markers to increase its bs will be like mandatory.

The increase in strength is necessary to make it at least worth attempting to shoot at vehicles occasionally. STR 8 isn't very good, but STR 6 effectively says "infantry only". If anything I'd keep the strength increase (and even make it bigger) and remove the extra hits, having the fluff of "bigger targets get hit more" represented by the better chance to wound/pen.

Which is exactly my point, there is no need for the unit to be good against everything.

Actually it works just fine. The increased hits are done for each model hit. Mixed units don't require any special rules, if the template is over a 'small' model it's one hit, if it's over a 'big' model it's multiple hits.

The problem is that you don't hit models (except for single model units), you hit units. And the weapon rule doesn't say that the model under the template generates the extra hits, it says the model that suffers the hits. Then you have the issue of the differing strength values in the same unit.

 Kommissar Kel wrote:

 Godless-Mimicry wrote:
Where did you get the idea it can put out 12 S8 AP3 wounds on an MC or vehicle comfortably? From the rules I read it can put out 12 shots comfortably. With BS3 Scatter, it will probably maybe only hit 2-3 of them, and then needs to roll to wound, so you are looking at 5-8 wounds on average perhaps, not 12.

It only ever makes 4 shots, each shot that hits a MC does 3 hits.

center all 4 Large blasts over the MCs and 1/3 are outright hits. then the blast can scatter 2.5" in any direction with the edge of the marker still in the center of the MC. add in the BS3 and you have a roll of 6 or less to still clip a 28 mm base(which is a hit); but MCs are on the largest bases(dread base, or oval) which adds at least another inch of scatter. That is 7" of scatter in any direction; that is 21 in 36 chance to still land your scattering large blast on target(or 58.33333%). Now we add together the fact that that is only 58% of 66%; which leads you to an overall 72.222% chance to get 3 hits per blast marker, or basically a 2/3(roughly) chance to have all 4 land for 12 hits.

And if it is a 2/3 chance of 4 hits then the average is somewhere between 2-3 hits which is exactly what I said. Your post in no way invalidates mine, it just goes into more detail. It also doesn't account for wound rolls and Nova Reactor. So I'm still waiting for somebody to show me how it comfortably gets 12 wounds, which was the claim the OP made.

 Tarrasq wrote:
Which is exactly my point, there is no need for the unit to be good against everything.

It isn't all that good against vehicles, and really wouldn't with my proposed change. Spamming krak missiles is only effective when it's cheap, with this thing you're paying 300 points for those shots. It's a dedicated infantry killer that can occasionally shoot at a vehicle if you really need to.

The problem is that you don't hit models (except for single model units), you hit units. And the weapon rule doesn't say that the model under the template generates the extra hits, it says the model that suffers the hits. Then you have the issue of the differing strength values in the same unit.

The rules for the gun explicitly say "model", not "unit". You can argue about it RAW, but RAI it very clearly means that you determine how many hits and at what strength based on the individual models under the template.


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stargazer093 wrote:
since when does riptide`s bs matter? if I`ll ever shot something as powerful as this, at least 4-6 markers to increase its bs will be like mandatory.

Ok, so now you're making it even more expensive. You might effectively auto-kill a target (but don't forget you only have a 2/3 chance of getting two shots per gun no matter how high you make its BS), but when you're spending 3-400 points (or more) it would be pretty bad if you didn't.

 BeefCakeSoup wrote:
Who cares its forge world. Stuffs not supposed to be balanced its supposed to be fun and awesome. Regular codexes are for balance.

Waho there! I think you might want to look at the codices again. SoB at high point costs totally are balanced against other armies, the internal balance of CSM and IG (and many others) is totally up there, BA are neck in' neck with SM. Let's be honest, the codices are anything but balanced. And really.... Forge World stuff is fun. Heck how can you say who cares? Certain people play armies entirely dependent upon them. Also whilst it is supposed to be fun and awesome (sounds like the codices), they are actually arguably more underpowered than anything else.

Imho i think FW units arent OP (except for experimental rules). I own 3 because I like the models (stormeagle, achilles and tyberos) and I like to field them in fun lists, but otherwise in a competitive list I pass on them (maybe the LR achilles, but with the new codex, I can take TFCs now which is better). They are balanced enough compared with the codex units. I'd explain why i think they are not as OP at first tlance if anyone asks.

Simply put theyre cool models, but no necessarily OP. And to weight in, that suit with the experimental rules are OP right now but i am confident that when the printed rules come out it will be more balanced along with a lot of FW units. Wont be the first time they release something crazy and dial it back after release.

 Peregrine wrote:

 JGrand wrote:
I mean, Drakes, Vendettas, Riptides, and Serpents are all great units, but DA, Tau, and Eldar flyers? Come on. The former stuff is overly efficient for the cost, but you seem to just have a problem with flyers. If anything, DA, Tau, and Eldar flyers are overcosted.

That's exactly the point. GW publishes blatantly overpowered units, and units that are so weak you can't imagine how GW thought anyone would use them. They clearly have no clue how to balance the game and/or no interest in even trying. FW has their own balance issues, but it's absurd to say they're any worse than GW's consistent pattern of awful balance.

Pretty much this, the poster I quoted stated that FW had balance issues and I responding, quoting units that demonstrate the GW is even worse, pointing out units that are fantastic for their cost and units that are terrible and would only ever take if you really loved the model or wanted to handicap yourself.

 Tarrasq wrote:

Actually it works just fine. The increased hits are done for each model hit. Mixed units dn't require any special rules, if the template is over a 'small' model it's one hit, if it's over a 'big' model it's multiple hits.

The problem is that you don't hit models (except for single model units), you hit units. And the weapon rule doesn't say that the model under the template generates the extra hits, it says the model that suffers the hits. Then you have the issue of the differing strength values in the same unit.

Since the weapons are Large Blasts, you just look under the template to see what you hit, then add wounds as needed. Feels weird through.

EDIT: Wouldn't you simple put the different strengths in wound pools like AP and doll them out just the same?

you do hit models when the rules call for it.

Its like templates and swarm models. Any model hit with a template that has the rule Swarm, that model suffers an additional wound. This wound is per model and does not mean 1 "hit" causes 2 pastes, only 1 paste if its strong enough to do it.

 Peregrine wrote:

 Kommissar Kel wrote:
Now we add together the fact that that is only 58% of 66%; which leads you to an overall 72.222% chance to get 3 hits per blast marker, or basically a 2/3(roughly) chance to have all 4 land for 12 hits.

Your math is completely wrong. If each shot has a 72% chance of hitting a MC then you have a 27% chance of hitting with all four shots.

I didn't actually bother doing the math on all 4 shots.

Also i was talking about your average results not the overall percentage

 Godless-Mimicry wrote:

And if it is a 2/3 chance of 4 hits then the average is somewhere between 2-3 hits which is exactly what I said. Your post in no way invalidates mine, it just goes into more detail. It also doesn't account for wound rolls and Nova Reactor. So I'm still waiting for somebody to show me how it comfortably gets 12 wounds, which was the claim the OP made.

2-3 hits Which you then multiply by 3. so 6 or 9 hits.

I was not arguing that it gets 12 wounds, only that there is a decent chance to get 12 hits. If it gets 12 hits it will average 9 wounds on t7 MCs, at AP3. AS far as the nova reactor goes, you should only fail once per game.

 Kommissar Kel wrote:
AS far as the nova reactor goes, you should only fail once per game.

Don't think is correct.

I think the math goes out to 1-2 per game on average. Though that never happens, i either pass them all or fail them all lol. No idea how irritating it is to have a riptide die because it failed 4 novas and then random lascannon finishes it off >.<

 Vineheart01 wrote:
I think the math goes out to 1-2 per game on average. Though that never happens, i either pass them all or fail them all lol. No idea how irritating it is to have a riptide die because it failed 4 novas and then random lascannon finishes it off >.<

This is it.

The math averages to 2 fails per game(assuming usage every turn, and survival to the last turn); but in reality you are not going to have: Fail, pass, pass, fail, pass, pass; nor any exact patterned derivation like it; you will either fail several times or more likely pass many times(as you pass 66.666% of each roll, not "of the time").

Interestingly reading the fluff the main reason for the suit was in the use against nids horde/monstrous creatures so I don't think the intention was for vehicles, goodbye tervigons etc

 Kommissar Kel wrote:
AS far as the nova reactor goes, you should only fail once per game.

Average game is 6 turns and Nova Reactor is on a 3+. That's 2 fails on average per game, not 1.

Don't forget that he doesn't need to take skyfire, so the only upgrade that makes sense for a 6W beastie like him is Interceptor and FNP.

Well, taking skyfire on him would be pointless lol not just not needed. Most tau weapons have multiple modes to shoot but this one just shoots pi plates.

 Vineheart01 wrote:
Well, taking skyfire on him would be pointless lol not just not needed. Most tau weapons have multiple modes to shoot but this one just shoots pi plates.

The point is, skyfire is a viable option for the normal riptide with HBC's or even the riptides with secondary weapons. But since this new riptide can't make any use of it, that secondary upgrade slot (1st would be for Interceptor) can be reserved for FNP if you don't mind paying 300-pts for a riptide.....which is still an incredibly effective unit against the right opponents.

 Krellnus wrote:
Whilst I'm probably going to get this, just for the kick ass model, I'm not 100% sold on the rules as they are, and its currently in heavy, which as an Enclave Player, I would have prefered it stay in elite, but what can you do?

But what can you do? BUT WHAT CAN YOU DO?!

You could start by not whining about its FO slot and start appreciating the fact that Tau, already top-tier, got yet another uber-powered-Gundam-status-Laugh-at-your-misery ass kicking machine.

Thank God its not 40k sanctioned.

It has the same weaknesses as a Riptide. Massed pie plates hurt obviously, but it's not something the Tau really need more of...

 Godless-Mimicry wrote:

 Kommissar Kel wrote:
AS far as the nova reactor goes, you should only fail once per game.

Average game is 6 turns and Nova Reactor is on a 3+. That's 2 fails on average per game, not 1.

I addressed this in my last post.

Asmodai Asmodean wrote:
It has the same weaknesses as a Riptide. Massed pie plates hurt obviously, but it's not something the Tau really need more of...

That's like saying annihilation barges have the same weaknesses as other necron AV13 vehicles and that tesla-destructors is something that they don't really need more of....

Are you kidding me?!? What's not to like about one of the best and more flexible units in the Tau codex?





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I look at this guy and I see a bad-ass who is just too good for the points. He has a role to play and he will do it extremely well, and that is MEQ-icide. Anything without 2+ armour is going to get annihilated by this guy, especially if you add a Buff Commander to give him Ignore Cover and Monster/Tank Hunter. (Also wondering if the Commander's re-rolls will allow the tide to re-roll his scatters?) Hordes are going to get vaporized just like that. Sorry, thunderfire cannon....you can't even touch this!

 jy2 wrote:

Asmodai Asmodean wrote:
It has the same weaknesses as a Riptide. Massed pie plates hurt obviously, but it's not something the Tau really need more of...

That's like saying annihilation barges have the same weaknesses as other necron AV13 vehicles and that tesla-destructors is something that they don't really need more of....

Are you kidding me?!? What's not to like about one of the best and more flexible units in the Tau codex?





Automatically Appended Next Post:
I look at this guy and I see a bad-ass who is just too good for the points. He has a role to play and he will do it extremely well, and that is MEQ-icide. Anything without 2+ armour is going to get annihilated by this guy, especially if you add a Buff Commander to give him Ignore Cover and Monster/Tank Hunter. (Also wondering if the Commander's re-rolls will allow the tide to re-roll his scatters?) Hordes are going to get vaporized just like that. Sorry, thunderfire cannon....you can't even touch this!

You can almost get 3 Thunderfire Cannons for the price of one of these. I'd bloody well expect a 260 point model to be better at its job than a 100 point one.

Asmodai Asmodean wrote:
It has the same weaknesses as a Riptide. Massed pie plates hurt obviously, but it's not something the Tau really need more of...

Actually, if Tau are lacking in any aspect of shooting, it's pie plates. We have, what, three? Riptide Ion plates, Sunshark pulse bombs and Hammerhead Submunitions. More pie plates? Yes please.

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

You can almost get 3 Thunderfire Cannons for the price of one of these. I'd bloody well expect a 260 point model to be better at its job than a 100 point one.

Trust me, he is. This guy (+Buff Commander) can potentially take out an entire 50-man blob squad in just 1 go. Heck, it can potentially take out a 20-man MEQ horde in 1 go. Moreover, he can easily kill any non-2+ MC as well as vehicles much more reliably than the TFC and is actually more survivable than 3 TFC's. Lol.

I wouldn't allow him in tournament play, at least not until his rules get fixed (edit: nerfed) with a 40K Approved stamp.

It's too good at what it does. I hope it gets hit with the nerf bat.

Compare to a Wraithknight (which has a 3+ save and no free invulnerable) and half the firepower.

But if it gets nerfed, we will have all the Tau players complaining that their FW model is not powerful enough

imo if it can kill a whole 30 boy Ork blob within a turn, its needs nerfed with a battering ram, never mind a bat

How good are these a swap for broadsides?

Very; 3 Str 8 hits on vehicles with every hit vs 1 TL shot.

It potentially out-shoots a 3 man Broadside team, and holds a high level of survivability(Without the missile drones dragging it T down), and costs less than a 3-man team.

I would still field a broadside team with Velocity trackers though.