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 jy2 wrote:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

You can almost get 3 Thunderfire Cannons for the price of one of these. I'd bloody well expect a 260 point model to be better at its job than a 100 point one.

Trust me, he is. This guy (+Buff Commander) can potentially take out an entire 50-man blob squad in just 1 go. Heck, it can potentially take out a 20-man MEQ horde in 1 go. Moreover, he can easily kill any non-2+ MC as well as vehicles much more reliably than the TFC and is actually more survivable than 3 TFC's. Lol.

I wouldn't allow him in tournament play, at least not until his rules get fixed (edit: nerfed) with a 40K Approved stamp.

You need an average of 14.583... models beneath each blast marker if you're firing 4 of them to kill 50 guardsmen in one shooting phase. 3 Thunderfire Cannons need an average of 4.8611... beneath each small blast marker. Both are unlikely, but a Thunderfire Cannon murders the everliving gak out of light infantry just fine, and it's barrage to boot.

Similarly, it'd need an average of 5.833... Marines hit by each marker to kill 20 marines in one shooting phase, and it means you're also attaching a buff commander to it.

Tbh the XV107 is least effective against standard infantry.

Just it doesn't do AA & that's a need for me :*(

Edit: So the ECPA should work with a XV107 as it is a battlesuit. There is no requirement for a riptide.

Less effective against infantry how? It wounds all except nurgle marines on 2s and ap3 pens all except termie armor, which isnt really considered infantry anyway. Anything with a pi plate is usually your friend against infantry because it can wound like crazy, especially if your opponent either didnt or couldnt space properly. And this thing shoots 2-4 pi plates lol.

I usually have an Ionhead in my lists and it usually fires at troops not big things. If i can nail a vehicle in the process, sweet, but unless its something important or getting too close i never fire it at a vehicle...always infantry. This thing is 2x the cost of the Ionhead and puts out the same possibly double the dakka.

Razerous wrote:
Tbh the XV107 is least effective against standard infantry.

Just it doesn't do AA & that's a need for me :*(

Edit: So the ECPA should work with a XV107 as it is a battlesuit. There is no requirement for a riptide.

Except that it doesn't have access to signature systems.

It puts out normal damage against against infantry.

With the nothing it has(math?!) a 1/3 to fail a nova, putting out 4 pie plates. It might prove to be excessive but it looses mobility, ap2, fusion fun & AA potential.

Sorry. The exception does exist, your right. (Edit)

 Krellnus wrote:

Razerous wrote:
Tbh the XV107 is least effective against standard infantry.

Just it doesn't do AA & that's a need for me :*(

Edit: So the ECPA should work with a XV107 as it is a battlesuit. There is no requirement for a riptide.

Except that it doesn't have access to signature systems.

Except that Riptides can take Signature systems when using the book that the ECPA is in.

 Kommissar Kel wrote:

 Krellnus wrote:

Razerous wrote:
Tbh the XV107 is least effective against standard infantry.

Just it doesn't do AA & that's a need for me :*(

Edit: So the ECPA should work with a XV107 as it is a battlesuit. There is no requirement for a riptide.

Except that it doesn't have access to signature systems.

Except that Riptides can take Signature systems when using the book that the ECPA is in.

XV107 R'Varna =/= XV104 Riptide

XV107 > Tau Codex - Yes

Tau Codex > Firesight Enclaves - Yes

Farsight Enclaves > Tau Codex Yes

Farsight Codex > Tau Codex XV108 - Yes

Farsight Codex > XV107 - No (No mention, doesn't work).

For the Farsight Enclaves wargear, it works one way but not t'other. To my medium dismay (it is 290pts...)

Razerous wrote:
As this unit is a heavy support choice in Codex: Tau Empires; Can I choose to take it as a heavy support in my Farsight Enclaves supplement.

Yes, since the Farsight suppliment use the Tau Codex to make up its army list and the FW rules puts the XV107 into the Tau Codex essentially.

Then, I assume taking a ECPA (Good old Builders!) is a given, given the awesome potential for Nova ripple fire carnage.

Unfortunately not, it states specifically the XV104 riptide.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Razerous wrote:
Tbh the XV107 is least effective against standard infantry.

Just it doesn't do AA & that's a need for me :*(

Edit: So the ECPA should work with a XV107 as it is a battlesuit. There is no requirement for a riptide.

Only XV104 Riptides can take Signature systems in a farsight list though.

*compares to Leman Russ and cries*

6 S8 AP3 shots are still effective vs vehicles. This is what SW have been doing for ages now. Going to 12 2/3 of the time is pretty darn stupid. Considering all the buffs tau can throw on that, im not seeing how this is balanced at all. Losing jump status is of little consequence when you are the toughest model to kill in the game. Tervigons were considered 'tough' when they had no inv. This thing is just a joke. Literally nothing is standing in this things path if it gets even 2 marker light hits on target. *oh look, 9-12 S8 AP3 hits on that tervigon, oh dead. How about wraithknights? BS5 the gun and get all 12 hits, and you are averaging a kill again*. The rules literally say "effective vs every target in the game". This was the PROBLEM with 6th tau. They had few weaknesses that special rules didnt already cover. Now they are just making it worse with another buff to an already OP unit.

Here's a suggestion to "reign" him in.

Reduce to T6.

Make Nova-charge +1 Str only.

Even at that, he'd still be a great bargain.

Its blast weapon fire so scatters still matter. Its also 260pts of heavy support that can't touch Air & fills a very similar role to Broadsides.

Engage it with anything in cc, you win.

Razerous wrote:
Its blast weapon fire so scatters still matter. Its also 260pts of heavy support that can't touch Air & fills a very similar role to Broadsides.

Engage it with anything in cc, you win.

Wrong, sorry to be so blunt, most things will be wounding this on a 6, str3 not at all, then a 2+ save as most things won't be rocking ap2 weapons, if the tau player wants he will activate the 3++, riptides are good at combat due to being both a mc and hard to kill.

 Formosa wrote:

Razerous wrote:
Its blast weapon fire so scatters still matter. Its also 260pts of heavy support that can't touch Air & fills a very similar role to Broadsides.

Engage it with anything in cc, you win.

Wrong, sorry to be so blunt, most things will be wounding this on a 6, str3 not at all, then a 2+ save as most things won't be rocking ap2 weapons, if the tau player wants he will activate the 3++, riptides are good at combat due to being both a mc and hard to kill.

To be fair, the biggest reason Riptides are good at CC is that they can simply ignore it by jumping away when the enemy gets close. This can't. Even if you won't kill it you'll still tie it down for quite a while.

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

 Formosa wrote:

Razerous wrote:
Its blast weapon fire so scatters still matter. Its also 260pts of heavy support that can't touch Air & fills a very similar role to Broadsides.

Engage it with anything in cc, you win.

Wrong, sorry to be so blunt, most things will be wounding this on a 6, str3 not at all, then a 2+ save as most things won't be rocking ap2 weapons, if the tau player wants he will activate the 3++, riptides are good at combat due to being both a mc and hard to kill.

To be fair, the biggest reason Riptides are good at CC is that they can simply ignore it by jumping away when the enemy gets close. This can't. Even if you won't kill it you'll still tie it down for quite a while.

Sure it can. Buff commander with vectored retro-thrusters. Good times!

The problem with this and close combat is just getting to it. The range and durability means this thing can just sit back on a piece of terrain and lob 4 large blasts per turn.
The draw back that it can't hit flyers is negligible since it has the equivalent of 2-4 ioncannons on a more durable frame. Saying that it can't take on flyers well is like saying that double fusion crisis suits are bad because they can't handle a green tide. That's not what it's there for. It costs twice as much as a Ionhead, but more cost effective and more survivable in CC than one.

Basically the way I see it, is you can take one of these things in heavy support and it frees up a lot of options. One of these is sufficient for anti-infantry and even decent against some armor and MC. This frees up your other options in the list, like making it guilt free to get skyfire on broadsides. It even makes HBC Riptides look decent since I'll have enough large blasts going out each turn.

Has anyone thought about giving this guy the buffcommander? Monster hunter or tank hunter on this thing with the multiple hits tied in with ignoring cover and twin-linking just seems mean. It would be expensive, but would put out a lot of hurt.

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

 Formosa wrote:

Razerous wrote:
Its blast weapon fire so scatters still matter. Its also 260pts of heavy support that can't touch Air & fills a very similar role to Broadsides.

Engage it with anything in cc, you win.

Wrong, sorry to be so blunt, most things will be wounding this on a 6, str3 not at all, then a 2+ save as most things won't be rocking ap2 weapons, if the tau player wants he will activate the 3++, riptides are good at combat due to being both a mc and hard to kill.

To be fair, the biggest reason Riptides are good at CC is that they can simply ignore it by jumping away when the enemy gets close. This can't. Even if you won't kill it you'll still tie it down for quite a while.

Give it Vectored Retro-thrusters and a shielded missile drone. Keep the missile drone behind him so that all hits are allocated to it first. Problem solved.

BTW, you can keep the shield drone in front to maximize range. Then in the Assault phase, jump the missile drone behind the tide for some protection.

 jy2 wrote:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

 Formosa wrote:

Razerous wrote:
Its blast weapon fire so scatters still matter. Its also 260pts of heavy support that can't touch Air & fills a very similar role to Broadsides.

Engage it with anything in cc, you win.

Wrong, sorry to be so blunt, most things will be wounding this on a 6, str3 not at all, then a 2+ save as most things won't be rocking ap2 weapons, if the tau player wants he will activate the 3++, riptides are good at combat due to being both a mc and hard to kill.

To be fair, the biggest reason Riptides are good at CC is that they can simply ignore it by jumping away when the enemy gets close. This can't. Even if you won't kill it you'll still tie it down for quite a while.

Give it Vectored Retro-thrusters and a shielded missile drone. Keep the missile drone behind him so that all hits are allocated to it first. Problem solved.

BTW, you can keep the shield drone in front to maximize range. Then in the Assault phase, jump the missile drone behind the tide for some protection.

Can't give VRT to Riptides. So you'd need a Buff Commander for that.

Thud wrote:

Can't give VRT to Riptides. So you'd need a Buff Commander for that.

Darn. <<cue the violins>>

 jy2 wrote:

Thud wrote:

Can't give VRT to Riptides. So you'd need a Buff Commander for that.

Darn. <<cue the violins>>

Actually, RAW, you can give them VRT as the XV107 R'Varna is NOT a Riptide therefore there is no rule that prevents you from doing this.

Tau Skyfire wrote:

 jy2 wrote:

Thud wrote:

Can't give VRT to Riptides. So you'd need a Buff Commander for that.

Darn. <<cue the violins>>

Actually, RAW, you can give them VRT as the XV107 R'Varna is NOT a Riptide therefore there is no rule that prevents you from doing this.

It explicitly says it has the same limitations as a Riptide.

Tau Skyfire wrote:

 jy2 wrote:

Thud wrote:

Can't give VRT to Riptides. So you'd need a Buff Commander for that.

Darn. <<cue the violins>>

Actually, RAW, you can give them VRT as the XV107 R'Varna is NOT a Riptide therefore there is no rule that prevents you from doing this.

Did you just appeal to RAW without actually having read the rules in question?

Smooth.

Le Sigh....

Thud wrote:

Tau Skyfire wrote:

 jy2 wrote:

Thud wrote:

Can't give VRT to Riptides. So you'd need a Buff Commander for that.

Darn. <<cue the violins>>

Actually, RAW, you can give them VRT as the XV107 R'Varna is NOT a Riptide therefore there is no rule that prevents you from doing this.

Did you just appeal to RAW without actually having read the rules in question?

Smooth.

And I quote from the support systems mention for 'Options' for the XV107 'see page 95 of the Codex: Tau Empire with the same restrictions of choice that apply to a Riptide battlesuit..'

So yes, I think he did read them, as I just have - Unless you can highlight a point I am missing. That is smooth!

Formosa wrote:

Razerous wrote:
Its blast weapon fire so scatters still matter. Its also 260pts of heavy support that can't touch Air & fills a very similar role to Broadsides.

Engage it with anything in cc, you win.

Wrong, sorry to be so blunt, most things will be wounding this on a 6, str3 not at all, then a 2+ save as most things won't be rocking ap2 weapons, if the tau player wants he will activate the 3++, riptides are good at combat due to being both a mc and hard to kill.

Not shooting for a turn is a victory for the opposing player, assuming they haven't tied up the 3A XV107 with a expensive unit.

It can kill 3 models a turn. It will often kill 1-2, if any (after To-Hit, wounds, Inv saves). Most units can survive that level of punishment happily, most of those for the reminder of the game.

 Savageconvoy wrote:
The problem with this and close combat is just getting to it. The range and durability means this thing can just sit back on a piece of terrain and lob 4 large blasts per turn.

If I'm doing my maths correctly, aiming to do this every turn is (I think) one of the quickest ways to kill a Riptide/XV107. Oh, nearly, whilst a BS5 Str9+ AP1-2 is @ 27% per lost wound a WS3+ Str9+ AP1-2 is at 37%, just above the 33% of the Nova.

Don't get me wrong, it can be very pivotal and rewarding but it is also a quick way to loose a Riptide/XV107.

Razerous wrote:
Le Sigh....

Thud wrote:

Tau Skyfire wrote:

 jy2 wrote:

Thud wrote:

Can't give VRT to Riptides. So you'd need a Buff Commander for that.

Darn. <<cue the violins>>

Actually, RAW, you can give them VRT as the XV107 R'Varna is NOT a Riptide therefore there is no rule that prevents you from doing this.

Did you just appeal to RAW without actually having read the rules in question?

Smooth.

And I quote from the support systems mention for 'Options' for the XV107 'see page 95 of the Codex: Tau Empire with the same restrictions of choice that apply to a Riptide battlesuit..'

So yes, I think he did read them, as I just have - Unless you can highlight a point I am missing. That is smooth!

I did read them in the same way as you, I apologise for getting something wrong if I have, but can you quote a specific rule that prevents me from doing this?

Tau Skyfire wrote:
I did read them in the same way as you, I apologise for getting something wrong if I have, but can you quote a specific rule that prevents me from doing this?

Read the rules in the pdf. It explicitly says that it must follow the restrictions for which upgrades the Riptide can take, and the Riptide is not allowed to take VRTs.

Tau Skyfire wrote:

Razerous wrote:
Le Sigh....

Thud wrote:

Tau Skyfire wrote:

 jy2 wrote:

Thud wrote:

Can't give VRT to Riptides. So you'd need a Buff Commander for that.

Darn. <<cue the violins>>

Actually, RAW, you can give them VRT as the XV107 R'Varna is NOT a Riptide therefore there is no rule that prevents you from doing this.

Did you just appeal to RAW without actually having read the rules in question?

Smooth.

And I quote from the support systems mention for 'Options' for the XV107 'see page 95 of the Codex: Tau Empire with the same restrictions of choice that apply to a Riptide battlesuit..'

So yes, I think he did read them, as I just have - Unless you can highlight a point I am missing. That is smooth!

I did read them in the same way as you, I apologise for getting something wrong if I have, but can you quote a specific rule that prevents me from doing this?

Tau Empire Wargear List on page 95 of Codex: Tau Empire. Under "Support Systems" in the right column. Vectored retro-thrusters is specifically restricted from being taken on Riptides and Broadsides.

Le sigh, indeed.

Tau Skyfire wrote:

 jy2 wrote:

Thud wrote:

Can't give VRT to Riptides. So you'd need a Buff Commander for that.

Darn. <<cue the violins>>

Actually, RAW, you can give them VRT as the XV107 R'Varna is NOT a Riptide therefore there is no rule that prevents you from doing this.

Sure, you could argue that..........., if you want a kick in the nads from your opponent.

Its a good point to raise though, we have determined that the XV107s can't have signature systems because of this type of wording. However I think common sense has to prevail here. The XV107 doesn't even have a jet pack, so I don't see how you would be able to argue that it can take VRTs. The whole reason why Broadsides can't have them in the first place is because of that.

 DarthOvious wrote:
Its a good point to raise though, we have determined that the XV107s can't have signature systems because of this type of wording. However I think common sense has to prevail here. The XV107 doesn't even have a jet pack, so I don't see how you would be able to argue that it can take VRTs. The whole reason why Broadsides can't have them in the first place is because of that.

XV107s can NOT take VRTs, period. There is absolutely no ambiguity about this.

The XV107's rules state that you have to obey the upgrade restrictions for Riptides.

VRTs state that they can not be taken by Riptides.

Conclusion: XV107s can not take VRTs. Anyone claiming otherwise either hasn't bothered to read the rules or is deliberately cheating.

 Peregrine wrote:

 DarthOvious wrote:
Its a good point to raise though, we have determined that the XV107s can't have signature systems because of this type of wording. However I think common sense has to prevail here. The XV107 doesn't even have a jet pack, so I don't see how you would be able to argue that it can take VRTs. The whole reason why Broadsides can't have them in the first place is because of that.

XV107s can NOT take VRTs, period. There is absolutely no ambiguity about this.

The XV107's rules state that you have to obey the upgrade restrictions for Riptides.

VRTs state that they can not be taken by Riptides.

Conclusion: XV107s can not take VRTs. Anyone claiming otherwise either hasn't bothered to read the rules or is deliberately cheating.

Ah I forgot about that restriction on the the rules. Thanks for clarrifying. It wouldn't have been something I would have done anyway as it was clear to me it shouldn't really be able to take them in the first place. Hence why I said common sense wise it shouldn't be done. As pointed out by others in the thread though it can't be done anyway with the wording shown on the rules.

This rule wouldn't be able to be used to get signature systems from the farsight book then could it? Once again, just asking for clarrification. I don't think it does, but just in case some people think it could.

 Peregrine wrote:

 DarthOvious wrote:
Its a good point to raise though, we have determined that the XV107s can't have signature systems because of this type of wording. However I think common sense has to prevail here. The XV107 doesn't even have a jet pack, so I don't see how you would be able to argue that it can take VRTs. The whole reason why Broadsides can't have them in the first place is because of that.

XV107s can NOT take VRTs, period. There is absolutely no ambiguity about this.

The XV107's rules state that you have to obey the upgrade restrictions for Riptides.

VRTs state that they can not be taken by Riptides.

Conclusion: XV107s can not take VRTs. Anyone claiming otherwise either hasn't bothered to read the rules or is deliberately cheating.

Thank you for clarifying this, I have since had a close look at the rules and agree with you. Thanks for clearing that up.