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I liked it when corrected on his tendency to interrupt other Talos who's just murdered millions of people and awaits his eminent doom responds that he'll spend the many healthy years of his life fixing this awful character flaw. Imperial stories just seem to fail even when they attempt it. Just read Salvations reach and the attempts at comedy seemed to fail and the only romance seems to be gold diggers trying marry officers and the commanding officer Gaunt pretty much raping one of his subordinates before telling an officer not to worry because he doesn't have any emotional attachment to the woman.

The Night Lords Trilogy seemed to do a much better job. Which is pretty strange to me considering that it was FAR FAR FAR DARKERRR in a place where you'd think you wouldn't find romantic love but you did, and found quite a bit to laugh about as well despite the uh "disturbing" subject matter.

One idea I had is the whole heresy thing with the Imperials. If you know that you may be required to kill your friend or lover than why get close to them. I Also don't see many real friendships with the Imperials, Talos and Xarls friendships actually reminded myself of my best friend growing up and the misgive we got into(we didn't kill anyone but we talked about it)(I'm not a bad person and neither was he), not many Imperial Guard characters felt that familiar which seems since their the ones that are suppose to be most like us. I think to theirs a place for both love and humor in the grimdarkness of darkness so either we need to add more mortals to fall in love and crack jokes in the chaos novels or find a way to make the Imperials, as an old fan I can't believe I'm saying this, more human.

Or maybe some authors are just better at it than others.

Maybe it's because the Chaos Gods love humour and entertainment (even Khorne has some really trolling moments sometimes, and his followers ham it up with the best of them).

They just tend to have a rather sick sense of it.

I wasn't aware that 40k novels were supposed to be about romance...or very comedic. I think you're reading the wrong genre if you're wanting romances or comedies, that's really not the authors' faults.

That's not to say that comedy or romance can't work in 40K. It might not be the focus, but that doesn't preclude other genres from existing in the setting.

You should read the Ravoner and the Eisenhorn Trilogies. There is comedy and romance there, albeit its still grimdark.

The setting doesn't really lend itself well to those two subjects. Its a setting that is focused on its darker elements, an unending struggle for survival against a hostile universe.

Doesn't mean you couldn't have romance or comedy, but you'd lose the 40k flavor. It could really be any gothic sci-fi at that point.

Its like the sacrilege of making a Star Trek action film. Its not what the setting was intended to do or be.

Andrej in Helsreach was comic relief, in a sense that dire as the situation is he says lines that lightens the mood. And there was a minor romantic subplot involving him. (Very minor).

Id have to agree it just depends on the writer

The Commissar Cain books have a lot of good chuckles, mostly through that infamously dry british humor, but it is there.

You can have elements of comedy in 40k in the form of black humour. In fact, a whole lot of Codex fluff is littered by this stuff. Want an example?

"Once commanded by Commissar Kraven D’lath of the 322nd, the Bastion is now known as Kravens Wrath since it fell to the invading forces of Chaos after every single man had been executed for cowardice. The Commissars whereabouts since its capture are unknown."
- Apocalypse: Battlefield Cadia

That's dark comedy to me. Hell, the entire Machine Cult is a form of comedy if you consider that it's really just about that strange human habit of cursing at your car/toaster/computer/whatever dialled up to 11.

There's no need to go the HURRDURR route like I'm being told the Cain novels work, where a character's bad odour is supposedly a running gag of some sort. But if you want a more light and wacky form of comedy, you can get even that, if you just look at the appropriate places. Light-hearted fun just doesn't fit into most places in 40k, especially in the Imperium, because you don't have much room for entertainment in a highly disciplined environment without turning that supposedly disciplined group into an army of clowns a la Hogan's Heroes, which would obviously cause a bit of a problem with faction portrayal. However, once you branch out into lesser known aspects of the Imperium ...

... why don't you take a look at the Redeemer comics? I found those to be rather funny.

"Once commanded by Commissar Kraven D’lath of the 322nd, the Bastion is now known as Kravens Wrath since it fell to the invading forces of Chaos after every single man had been executed for cowardice. The Commissars whereabouts since its capture are unknown."
- Apocalypse: Battlefield Cadia

It is funny but watching people basking in their own stupidity gets old after a while.

Eisenhorn Trilogies

I like the one Eisenhorn book I read, not my favorite but no complaints.

I think you're reading the wrong genre if you're wanting romances or comedies

How can it be grimdark if theirs nothing to mourn. Without love or happieness than how can you get depressed and fuel nurgle, or after watching the love of your life get killed get filled with so much hate you worship Khorne.

Maybe it's because the Chaos Gods love humour and entertainment (even Khorne has some really trolling moments sometimes, and his followers ham it up with the best of them).

That they do though I always saw Tzench as the over serious one.

Or maybe some authors are just better at it than others.

Good point.

I really think its the whole threat of heresy thing, how can you have friends or loved ones when you wonder if their heretics and they wonder the same about you, its like living in Stalinist Russia.

The humans in 40k are less relatable to than Tau, Eldar or even Orks.

You have a choice of post-human supermen, or basically space-skaven ratmen for the 'human' sides.

Double Eagle has some rather poignant parts to it. But then its largely a re-telling of the Blitz with a very 40s feel to it.

For me the best comedy's havepathos and dark moments - thats why I really like Comedy dramas.

So the Cain series has lots of fun but for me does not eliminate the darker elements:

Amberley Vail usually comes across as a fairly reasonable, likeable person. And then she mentions, in Caves of Ice, how she can never hold back a smile when looking at the amusing expressions on the faces of heretics being burned alive in a book from her childhood.

Cain's Last Stand: feeling a little unsettled and glancing around the Schola grounds, Cain notes a black-painted truck bearing a load of prisoners for interrogation, execution and live-fire exercises, decides all is well and gets back to work.

The interior of the building was, by any standard, a dismal sight, despite the garish fashion in which most of its occupants were dressed. Not as bad as some I've witnessed, of course, but pathetic enough: hollow eyed men and women bent under the weight of unbearable loss, apathetic children too bored and hungry to do much more than sit and whine instead of enjoying their carefree years as they should have been, and, permeating everything, the endless echoing roar of hundreds of voices no one was listening to. The smell was almost as bad as the noise, even my years of Jurgen's near constant companionship having done little to prepare me for such a concentrated dose of pungent humanity.

Some good background reading here:

http://bbs.stardestroyer.net/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=158391&start=25#p3780382

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Literature/CiaphasCain?from=Main.CiaphasCain

Some of the humour is fairly clear:
Blood for the Blood God!" A red-uniformed trooper came screaming out of the endless night at me, his old-fashioned autogun held across his chest like a pole arm, apparently intent on using the wickedly-serrated bayonet clipped to its barrel.
... "Harriers for the cup!" I riposted, shooting him in the face. His head liquefied under the impact of the las bolt and he fell heavily to the snow at my feet.

- other aspects much more clever. .........

Romance abounds in Cain but is also present in many of (IMO) best BL novels - Helsreach, Night Lords, Eisenhorn, Ghosts - its quite often Bitter sweet/ ending badly but it does help me again with the "why care about the characters" - I also liked Desert Warriors for this reason. Mr Mitchels Dark Heresy novels also do this well.

 Lynata wrote:
... why don't you take a look at the Redeemer comics? I found those to be rather funny.

I fully support this.

Also, ADB has said on several occasions that he wanted to write a Romeo and Juliet-inspired love story of two navigator houses who chose different sides during the Horus Heresy. Unfortunately, it was immediately shot down by the higher-ups. I personally think it would be amazing.

Humor, Space wolf books by william king and lee lightner have plenty of humor *cough* Haegr *cough*. Granted the romance side is light, but the other thing to consider is the targeted audience of the books, they are targeting 13-20 year old males generally, and quite frankly most guys in that age group could care less about romance.

Because if an imperial made a joke, he or she would get shot in an instant.... because no ones supposed to be happy in the imperium

Amberley Vail usually comes across as a fairly reasonable, likeable person. And then she mentions, in Caves of Ice, how she can never hold back a smile when looking at the amusing expressions on the faces of heretics being burned alive in a book from her childhood.

Cain notes a black-painted truck bearing a load of prisoners for interrogation, execution and live-fire exercises, decides all is well and gets back to work

I think its why the Imperials always seemed mentally dead to me, probably not even aware that some would call them murderers and might want to kill them. In Void Stalker the Night Lords are murdering bastards but their pretty honest about it. But yea I think its all the thought crime heresy stuff. Cain strikes me as a guy who just has stopped caring about anything other than his next meal and Gaunt is just a power hungry zealot superman.

Really? - ah well each to their own - I find the opposite its true given that Cain is usually trying desperately to survive whilst also pursuing the finer things in life not sure how that works?

For me the point is they inhabit a dark universe where their normality is burning heretics - harking back to the medieval and later mindset where a public execution was a fun day out. Judging them by our morality is not easy or even really fair. Amberely and Cain are likeable but still the willing instruments of an oppressive state. They are both intelligent and not without empathy. On occasion even they may question what they have to do in its service but at least they have each other and back to the OP.

The Night Lords are exactly what you say - murderers but I think they - like most of their Chapter and indeed their Primarch are desperately avoiding the truth - Lord of the Night also expands on this. They are great characters however.

Gaunt and many of his Regiment have survived truly horrific things - many more of his charges have not survived.

Really? - ah well each to their own - I find the opposite its true given that Cain is usually trying desperately to survive whilst also pursuing the finer things in life not sure how that works?

semantics, we just stated the same thing in a different way.

Judging them by our morality

In flesh and iron they had about the only Imperial troops that seemed human, but they eventually became vassals of the Blood Gorgan Chaos Astartes.

The Night Lords are exactly what you say - murderers but I think they - like most of their Chapter and indeed their Primarch are desperately avoiding the truth - Lord of the Night also expands on this. They are great characters however.

They seemed shockingly honest to me. Talos described what happened to the young girl who died in the arms of her mother as she was hacked to pieces by a Blood Angel as murder but then went on do the same thing to Imperial civilians and described it as murder, he seemed honest to me. Talos is pretty honest, he kills because its what he was born and made for, because its war, because of his fear punishment based ideology, and because its all that's left to him in an existence that he hates.

Really the only non honest character was Octavia, it wasn't till she had to murder the astropaths that she realized that she was just as guilty as anyone else.

Can I ask if you have read the Cain books - pretty much everyone is very human in them - they live and love, fight and die, argue and laugh? They have been brought up in a different world - much akin to our own history - but fundamentally they are the same as us.

How is he or Amberely "Mentally dead" - its very evident that Cain cares for his lover of the moment - and especially Amberely.... If he was as you describe they would be nothing but an occassional sexual encounter - but we have meaningful conversations, romantic dinners and moonlit walks, between the firefights of course.....

This works well in 40K as the Astartes are no longer human and most do not mourn what they have lost - or even recognise it is as loss. A few do but see it s their sacrifice to maintain the Imperium and its citizens. So I find that the better BL authors have the more human members fo the Imperium in them to show this. Helsreach has the rock hard stormtrooper who loves and looses his girl.....but is still able to laugh , even if sometimes its a birttle laugh - even a Chaplin of the Black Templars is able to recognise his loss even if he does not really understand it.

The Night Lords are IMO in denial not about what they do but why they do it - same as their Primarch - they blame their situation on others (The Emperor, the Assassins, Chaos etc etc ) the and desperately try to justify the horrific things they do - even when they know it was always their choice to do the things they do. They hate themselves for it and are driven to cause pain and suffering to others because of it - or because they have simply given in and enjoy it. Cain and Amberely do what they because they believe in what they are doing - they may even regret some aspects, but they believe in the "needs of the many". The author of these books is brilliant at making the NL characters - and then every so often he shows just how far they have descended into the darkness.

The (doomed?) love story in their book is about two people trying to stay human even though any remnant of this sickens the Night Lords - esp Talos - as it reminds them of what they have lost / thrown away. Any hint of redemption for them or their slaves must be crushed......

Vraksian Defender wrote:
That they do though I always saw Tzench as the over serious one.

Tzeentch's brand of humour is simply more esoteric than what most are used to. Like that time that Space Marine Chapter Master felt guilty about possibly killing innocents that the Inquisition said were heretics, so he prayed that he'd be able to know if every statement made was a truth or lie. Tzeentch heard him and granted his prayer for his entire chapter, for EVERY statement just like he asked. Hilarity ensued!

There was another time when a daemon got totally screwed over out of everything he ever lived for and worked towards at a last minute deus ex machine (Grey Knights popping up on the planet, if I recall correctly) and then looked into a void and saw all of Tzeentch's faces laughing at him. Oh that silly Tzeentch.

Can I ask if you have read the Cain books - pretty much everyone is very human in them - they live and love, fight and die, argue and laugh? They have been brought up in a different world - much akin to our own history - but fundamentally they are the same as us.

Read one. I was'nt saying he was mentally dead, more that a lot Imperials appear that way. Like why are we mostly killing our own, and why does everybody on the planet have to die? I don't care how ruthless you are I don't see how you cannot ask yourself those questions unless you live in total fear or total zealotry.

horrific things they do

How are the actions they do any worse than what the Imperials do to their own? The ends justify the means? Wasn't that what Curze did?

The (doomed?) love story in their book is about two people trying to stay human even though any remnant of this sickens the Night Lords - esp Talos - as it reminds them of what they have lost / thrown away. Any hint of redemption for them or their slaves must be crushed......

Ok this must be a total perspective difference. I thought Talos wanted to give Septemus and Octavia a fresh start(its hinted in his prophecies that their hunted down by Inquisition so I guess it did'nt work) because he was grateful for loyalty to him.

Love and Mirth obviously empowers Chaos, and has been declared heresy. You will sire children entirely without passion and will not tell jokes on the pain of death.

Ok this must be a total perspective difference. I thought Talos wanted to give Septemus and Octavia a fresh start(its hinted in his prophecies that their hunted down by Inquisition so I guess it did'nt work) because he was grateful for loyalty to him.

Ironic, Talos's sentimentality condemns the last living souls he cares about to torture and death. But it makes since given that Octavia name is Eurydice whose husband unsuccessfully tried to bring her out of the underworld and was only united with her in death. Sad.

Imperials fail at comedy and romance??? Clearly someone needs to read CS Goto. There is plenty of comedy there. And a bit of romance.

Some Imperials have lots of humour. Like that Imperial Commander who said "Only the Emperor is fit to judge their sins. It's just my job to send them to him." or that Deathwatch Marine that said ""Ask not "Why kill the Alien?" Instead, ask "Why not?""

TiamatRoar wrote:

Vraksian Defender wrote:
That they do though I always saw Tzench as the over serious one.

Tzeentch's brand of humour is simply more esoteric than what most are used to. Like that time that Space Marine Chapter Master felt guilty about possibly killing innocents that the Inquisition said were heretics, so he prayed that he'd be able to know if every statement made was a truth or lie. Tzeentch heard him and granted his prayer for his entire chapter, for EVERY statement just like he asked. Hilarity ensued!

There was another time when a daemon got totally screwed over out of everything he ever lived for and worked towards at a last minute deus ex machine (Grey Knights popping up on the planet, if I recall correctly) and then looked into a void and saw all of Tzeentch's faces laughing at him. Oh that silly Tzeentch.

And don't forget the changeling! Or pink horrors. All of the daemons of his breed are the end his own. The giggling clapping madmen that turn men to water and the changeling, weaver of plots and trolling (getting nurglings all over Khorne's seat).

Beside that... go look for 1001 Sister of Battle Lightbulb jokes (I think that is the name). Who knew they would have such jokes!?

Here I was under the impression the entire 40k universe is dark comedy.

Vraksian Defender, I honestly think you're mistaking the imperial setting for the author's abilities...

Vraksian Defender wrote:

Can I ask if you have read the Cain books - pretty much everyone is very human in them - they live and love, fight and die, argue and laugh? They have been brought up in a different world - much akin to our own history - but fundamentally they are the same as us.

Read one. I was'nt saying he was mentally dead, more that a lot Imperials appear that way. Like why are we mostly killing our own, and why does everybody on the planet have to die? I don't care how ruthless you are I don't see how you cannot ask yourself those questions unless you live in total fear or total zealotry.

Thinking in shades other than black and white in a warzone generally isnt conductive for long life, and actually C.S. Goto does tackle that a little bit with one of the Last Chancer's books. Another thing to consider is the type of regime that the IoM is under the prequel to literally every fluff flat out states that this is the most oppressive bloody regime ever......beating Hitler, Stalin and well every rotten apple. In such states liberal thought is strictly punished and frowned upon (aka in 40k HERESY!) and with so many years of this cultural stagnation other thoughts become largely foreign, if you want a light example compare the average citizens of the USA and USSR in the 1950s, due to propoganda actions that even showed the other side in a halfway decent life were considered highly taboo and generally illegal (McCarthyism, and Stalinism).


TL;DR: Propoganda and cultural mores dictate everyone.