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If I'm forcing a Wave Serpent to move, then I've got an edge over them, and the objectives.

You're absolutely right about lances, though. I guess that's where the Achilles comes in.

A couple things to note:
A poster posted about Necrons being a problem for Land Raiders. The current meta (and I know it changes) uses almost no guass. Its all Wraiths and Scythes and Barges. The only guass is on 5 man warrior squads that are in space until turn 5.
Second, if a list is going to not be able to handle 4 Land Raiders, it probably will have a heck of a time with 2. You don't need to "spam" it if its good. Spamming it just ensures you get smoked by your hard counter. Just ask all of the silly three Heldrake players (THREE IS AWEEESSOME!!1!!1_!)
Lastly, Land Raiders (specifically Chaos ones) are woefully short on firepower for their cost. 250pts for 1.77 lascannon hits and 2 heavy bolter hits? No thanks. You'd better be driving forward with some close combat monsters to make that price tag worth it. AV14 has its merits, but simply having boxes driving around at the end of the game isn't going to win on its own.

UnadoptedPuppy wrote:
If I'm forcing a Wave Serpent to move, then I've got an edge over them, and the objectives.

Not necessarily. A stationary Wave Serpent is an unprotected Wave Serpent. A Serpent on the move has a 5+ (more likely 4+) Cover save.

You're absolutely right about lances, though. I guess that's where the Achilles comes in.

Even then, I can put out enough S8 shots that I will glance it to death.

 Happyjew wrote:

UnadoptedPuppy wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
The land raider does pose the conundrum that nearly all anti-Wave Serpent weapons suck against the LR, and vice versa.

Except the LR is an assault vehcile! Say hello to some Krak grenades, Mr. Serpent.

You are assuming you are going to get close enough to charge said Wave Serpent.

Besides, LR spam doesn't worry someone who has 10+ Lance weapons in a single list.

And I can't remember when last I say more than two Bright Lances in an Eldar list. Now, DE, sure, but then most of them will be on three Ravagers. Most Tau and Eldar competitive lists would struggle vs AV14 Spam.

that is true, to much Str 6 cheese, or str 7 tau cheese

"Lastly, Land Raiders (specifically Chaos ones) are woefully short on firepower for their cost. 250pts for 1.77 lascannon hits and 2 heavy bolter hits? No thanks. You'd better be driving forward with some close combat monsters to make that price tag worth it. AV14 has its merits, but simply having boxes driving around at the end of the game isn't going to win on its own."

Chaos land raiders should be used to move forward with assault units embarked. One key multi charge versus Tau is a game winner. Dirge caster is a tool CSM can use to win big. You get a significant point break versus the Imperial versions and often there's no reason not to sit back the first two turns and slag the enemy with lascannons... It's the best weapon on a land raider in general solely due to strength, AP2 and range.

 Dozer Blades wrote:


Chaos land raiders should be used to move forward with assault units embarked. One key multi charge versus Tau is a game winner. Dirge caster is a tool CSM can use to win big. You get a significant point break versus the Imperial versions and often there's no reason not to sit back the first two turns and slag the enemy with lascannons... It's the best weapon on a land raider in general solely due to strength, AP2 and range.

The best thing about Chaos Land Raiders is that they are dedicated transports for Terminators and can carry Dirge Casters. Their fire power sucks and I can not afford to have assault troops sit idle for 2 turns to fire the dang things for effectively 2 LC shots. The lack of PotMS /really/ kills the Chaos LRs. I mean, think about it... loyalists LRs can double move /and/ fire a TLed LC or some other weapon at full BS. If that cost Chaos players 10-20pts to take (to now cost the same as a loyalist LR), I would take it in a heartbeat.

Agreed. The Dirge Caster makes the Chaos Land Raider work. I wish I could shave off 60pts and get no guns on it. Wishful thinking.

That's not what I was saying at all.

Take any given list from any given army. Weapons that work well against wave serpents don't work well against LRs, because serpents have to be spammed to death because quality of shot means nothing. LR are the exact opposite.

Lance weapons are great against LRs, but crap against serpents. That's my point.

I have beaten Tau armies featuring multiple Riptides on several occasions with my CSM-Daemon army (3x LR). Typically I sit back and pound the Riptides the first two turns then move forward and engage. LRs can best Riptides in long range gun battles plus the suits have nowhere to hide.