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the only problem with terminators is taking damage from really heavy stuff or plasma stuff or mass light fire, so.....
GET SOMETHING TO COUNTER THOSE PROBLEMS
get 2 chapter masters and orb bombard
get tac squads in rhinos and bikes to get to locations fast to help termies.
get devastators with missile launchers to cover from back(inside a building or aegis defence line)

Which is in fact: they die because someone shoots at them...duh!
That is, why I proposed to raise their toughness stat. I, however, like the way, the stormbolter is buffed here. A stormn bolter is a fine piece of equipment by the fluff and sadly reduced to assault 2-

 Ferrum_Sanguinis wrote:

 raiden wrote:

 sing your life wrote:

 raiden wrote:
oh give us an option to give all terminators FnP?

Deathwing already get that.

only command squad

The banner gives FNP to all units within 6"

Um okay. Yay. Not worth grouping them if they ha e blast templates. Also it is a rather large board. also I usually take a more effective banner and just take an apoc.

I remember when Terminators were 3+ save on a roll of 2d6, now thats an elite unit.

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
Let them take an additional heavy weapon at 5 men, let them take Veteran Skills. It wasn't OP when that was available in Codex: Black Templars, but it also wasn't UP. They were pricey, sure, but they were durable and packed a mean punch.

That or give them Special ammo for their Storm Bolters. It never made sense to me that Sternguard got that but not Terminators.

This. 2 HW per 5 men, 3 per 10 Men, special ammo on storm bolters for 5ppm, tank hunters, furious charge, or counterattack for 2-3ppm. Way better

Make their pfists swing at initiative 4!!!

honestly, here is my thought, make them T5. give them Storm Bolters that are assault 4, let them take 1 HW and 1 CML. POSSIBLY make them S5. due to terminator armor boosting their strength. bit much but in all I think it makes them much better, without making them OP. 20 shots from fairly expensive unit.

s5 makes them strike at str 10. big no no. but t5 and more hw is good.

Make stormbolters salvo 2/4 so that Terminators get more out of relentless, make them T5, and let them take up to four special weapons in a squad. This of course would also apply to Chaos Terminators (well not the stormbolters).

This way loyalist terminators can remain at their current price.

Obviously obliterators would need to also go up to T5, as would Cataphract suits for legion lists. Centurions can either remain the same or go up to T6.

Chaos termies could also go a bit down in price now that their combi-bolters aren't really as good as Loyalist termies, or perhaps they could be able to fire their attatched weapon with no "one use only" stipulation?

Artificer armor should probably take a price drop to compensate for Terminator armor being made better as well.

While not tactical terminators, I think that Lightning Claw terminators should also really get a boost. I think that giving lightning claws having rending would really help them out.

 Largeblastmarker wrote:
We need a terminator devastator squad! four assaulty-canyns

...
Best.
Idea.
EVER!!!!!

 Lord Gatlas wrote:

 Largeblastmarker wrote:
We need a terminator devastator squad! four assaulty-canyns

...
Best.
Idea.
EVER!!!!!

QFT (ALL AT T5!!!!)

Simple Terminator Fix.

Terminator with Powersword and Stormbolter... 30pts
Terminator with Power Fist and Stormbolter or Lightning Claws... 35pts
Terminator with Thunderhammer and StormShield... 40pts

Obviously balance specialty terminators around this point.

That would pretty much balance terminators and make the effective choices again.

Upgrading storm bolters in any way pretty much massively boosts every grey knight unit. Range 30" 3 shots with psybolts? Count me in.

Miindhaze wrote:
Upgrading storm bolters in any way pretty much massively boosts every grey knight unit. Range 30" 3 shots with psybolts? Count me in.

That's why you make it Salvo silly.

 Zagman wrote:
Simple Terminator Fix.

Terminator with Powersword and Stormbolter... 30pts
Terminator with Power Fist and Stormbolter or Lightning Claws... 35pts
Terminator with Thunderhammer and StormShield... 40pts

Obviously balance specialty terminators around this point.

That would pretty much balance terminators and make the effective choices again.

Would you leave Storm Bolters the same or upgrade them to Salvo 2/4 or Assault 2/Heavy 4 like so many are talking about???

I was thinking about this at work last night and something struck me. There seems to be two problems people are having with terminators, lack of ranged firepower and lack of survival.

Way back in 2nd edition space marines cost 35 points a model, terminators 60 points. Both have the same equipment on basic troops (stormbolter and powerfist for terminators, bolter, krak and frag grenades for tactical) and the bolters and stormbolters, basic stat per model are exactly the same except for the armor save on terminators Now space marines in 6th edition are costing XX points base and terminators are XX points (wouldn't want to violate any rules about point cost). So the regular SM got a 60% discount, terminators got a 33% discount. This means you can field about 3 normal marines for the cost of 1 terminator, when back in 2nd ED you couldn't even field 2. So regular marines provide more firepower for the points, making terminators less desirable for ranged offense.

Now, I don't know about you but I always thought GW probably took the name terminators from the classic movie from that same era. And they build rules that made terminator armor feel like the Terminator; relentless and unstoppable. Back then terminators had a 3+ armor save on two dice. Standard weapons had a -1 to the armor save so against most normal ranged fire a terminator only needed to roll a 4+ on two dice, meaning there was only about a 1 in 12 chance of a terminator being removed from normal fire. Even against lascannons they could make the save on a 9+. Add in smaller model counts per side and most regular weapons not firing more turn terminators were damned hard to kill. It got even worse trying to kill off character models since they got to make armor and invulnerable saves.

Then 3rd edition rolls out and terminators are a 2+ armor save, which means they fail their save 1 in 6 against regular weapons. Their survivability against volley fire was halved. And with modern 40k with all the assault 2+, ap 2 nonheavy or rending weapons out there is it at all surprising that tactical terminators feel less like juggernauts then expensive fodder which cannot kill the opposition?

Lots of ideas for making them better but I am going to go back and say they don't really need an increase in firepower. They need vastly more survival. So allow terminators to reroll armor and invulnerable saves.

 Ferrum_Sanguinis wrote:

 Zagman wrote:
Simple Terminator Fix.

Terminator with Powersword and Stormbolter... 30pts
Terminator with Power Fist and Stormbolter or Lightning Claws... 35pts
Terminator with Thunderhammer and StormShield... 40pts

Obviously balance specialty terminators around this point.

That would pretty much balance terminators and make the effective choices again.

Would you leave Storm Bolters the same or upgrade them to Salvo 2/4 or Assault 2/Heavy 4 like so many are talking about???

Not with those point reductions. I'd consider Salvo 2/3. But, without overhauling the Bolter as a balance point and the GK codex as a whole i would leave them be. Plus, now we are talking about a much larger and wide spread fix.

I think the simplest fix is to just price them appropriately.

Unshakable - Models with this special rule treat blast weapons as ap- when hit.

A lascannon will still melt a terminator, a demon prince can still squeeze them like a stresstoy, but no more single-shot mass terminator killing weapons.

In my mind, blasts should only really have been useful against hordes of infantry, from shrapnel and debris, and terminator's would just shrug off such things.

If this would just ruin AP2 blasts entirely, then maybe allow terminators to reroll saves against blasts, so they get a 5++ rerollable to ap2 blasts, making them effective, but not just silly-effective

This is coming from someone who doesn't play marines, but regularly blows up terminators

Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Evileyes wrote:
Unshakable - Models with this special rule treat blast weapons as ap- when hit.

A lascannon will still melt a terminator, a demon prince can still squeeze them like a stresstoy, but no more single-shot mass terminator killing weapons.

In my mind, blasts should only really have been useful against hordes of infantry, from shrapnel and debris, and terminator's would just shrug off such things.

If this would just ruin AP2 blasts entirely, then maybe allow terminators to reroll saves against blasts, so they get a 5++ rerollable to ap2 blasts, making them effective, but not just silly-effective

This is coming from someone who doesn't play marines, but regularly blows up terminators

I like this idea.

One more thing: Vanilla SM really need Termie Command Squads again like in 4th. I really don't see why they removed them...

I think terminators are at a good price point at 40 points, they just need to have their power level brought up to that price point. Veteran skills are a very strong contender for this, id also like to see some sort of ability that lets them lose an attack, but in exchange get to strike at I4 with their powerfists. If you made this trait unique to Tactical Terminators, and denied it to TH/SS Assault Terminators, not only would it make regular terminators more competitive, but it would also make TH/SS terminators a bit less of an obvious choice.

Rumbleguts wrote:

Funny thing is, terminators way back in 2nd edition were more like this. Only terminators could carry thunderhammers and stormshields. Those systems required too much power and strength for regular space marine armor. Same thing with lightning claw., Assault cannons/cyclone missile launchers/hvy flamers are still terminator only so far as man portable systems go. Although a SM hero could buy a combi bolter bolter it still wasn't a stormbolter as I recall. The bolter bolter let you fire two shots, but the stormbolter used a ... I want to call it a jam die but I know that was our own nickname, that could allow it to get 3 shots. Averaged around 2. I seem to recall the fluff on them saying that the recoil on a storm bolter was too much for even a space marine to use unbraced.

This.

Terminators are suffering because everything else has received more fancy toys that were previously part of why Terminators were so cool. Of course that means the other things gaining these toys are also cool now.

I really dislike some of the extra rules being bandied about, it sounds to me exactly like the 'codex creep' that everyone complains about with official GW rules. "Oh X is really cool, so I need to make Y really cooler in response!"

If Terminators really aren't as special and useful as they used to be, drop the price. Other than that, live with it.

Of course, just my opinion...

Rav1rn wrote:I think terminators are at a good price point at 40 points, they just need to have their power level brought up to that price point. Veteran skills are a very strong contender for this, id also like to see some sort of ability that lets them lose an attack, but in exchange get to strike at I4 with their powerfists. If you made this trait unique to Tactical Terminators, and denied it to TH/SS Assault Terminators, not only would it make regular terminators more competitive, but it would also make TH/SS terminators a bit less of an obvious choice.

And that would do nothing vs Weight of Fire. The problem isn't damage output per model, its cost vs survivability.

Slaanesh-Devotee wrote:

Rumbleguts wrote:

Funny thing is, terminators way back in 2nd edition were more like this. Only terminators could carry thunderhammers and stormshields. Those systems required too much power and strength for regular space marine armor. Same thing with lightning claw., Assault cannons/cyclone missile launchers/hvy flamers are still terminator only so far as man portable systems go. Although a SM hero could buy a combi bolter bolter it still wasn't a stormbolter as I recall. The bolter bolter let you fire two shots, but the stormbolter used a ... I want to call it a jam die but I know that was our own nickname, that could allow it to get 3 shots. Averaged around 2. I seem to recall the fluff on them saying that the recoil on a storm bolter was too much for even a space marine to use unbraced.

This.

Terminators are suffering because everything else has received more fancy toys that were previously part of why Terminators were so cool. Of course that means the other things gaining these toys are also cool now.

I really dislike some of the extra rules being bandied about, it sounds to me exactly like the 'codex creep' that everyone complains about with official GW rules. "Oh X is really cool, so I need to make Y really cooler in response!"

If Terminators really aren't as special and useful as they used to be, drop the price. Other than that, live with it.

Of course, just my opinion...

I agree. I also don't like these proposed special rules. KISS, price them appropriately, easy fix.

The problem is cost vs survivability. Everything else has gotten much cheaper, Terminators are still too expensive. Why pay 40pts for a Terminator when you can buy Tacticals at 14pts, or specialty marines with all the toys for ~20.

Drop the cost and bring their pricing back in line.

Maybe you could combine the 2 types together with some riot police kinda formation because i could totally see hammernators form a shield wall and storm bolters shoot from behind.

Shield wall formation
If more than one hammernator is in base contact they and any directly behind the termies get +1 toughness and +1 invun (+1 invun dose not apply to hammernators) and storm bolters get salvo 2/3 and can re-role snap shots? assult cannons get +1 shot
and they go up to 225 points per 5 man unit

wargey wrote:
Maybe you could combine the 2 types together with some riot police kinda formation because i could totally see hammernators form a shield wall and storm bolters shoot from behind.

Shield wall formation
If more than one hammernator is in base contact they and any directly behind the termies get +1 toughness and +1 invun (+1 invun dose not apply to hammernators) and storm bolters get salvo 2/3 and can re-role snap shots? assult cannons get +1 shot

To your first point;



and to the second;
that would make dark angel players feel very, very ripped off.

They done it during the grate crusade and the heresy why would the codex change that.

The easiest way would be to combine both units or give termies all heavy and special weapons and special issue storm bolter rounds.

on't say the codex dose not approve of mixed units its only fist and smurfs that don't use them the codex says to company of 100 the salamanders have 7 of 120 and 1 of 60 the codex dose not like on mass bikers (White scars) 1 company OK but the whole army calgars brain is melting down or over 1000 men in a chapter i know at least 1 crimson fist (theoretically should have 1028) codex compliant chapter that dose that.