US Army defines Christian ministry as 'domestic hate group'

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**Frazzled**

whembly wrote:
AlmightyWalrus wrote:
Allod wrote:
AlmightyWalrus wrote:
Dreadclaw69 wrote:
Senden wrote:
Are you telling me the the Catholic Church isn't a hate group?

Why only single out one religion?

Because it's the biggest, as well as the one related to the topic at hand?

Related to the topic? The AFA is Catholic? That's probably the real news here.

In fact, I think the biggest news is that Catholicism is apparently a religion, as opposed to a denomination of Christianity...

Wut?

Isn't that the same argument that the US isn't a Democracy, but a Constitutional Republic?

In Stalinist Russia, Republic Democratizes YOU!

**Allod**

AlmightyWalrus wrote:
Allod wrote:
AlmightyWalrus wrote:
Dreadclaw69 wrote:
Senden wrote:
Are you telling me the the Catholic Church isn't a hate group?

Why only single out one religion?

Because it's the biggest, as well as the one related to the topic at hand?

Related to the topic? The AFA is Catholic? That's probably the real news here.

In fact, I think the biggest news is that Catholicism is apparently a religion, as opposed to a denomination of Christianity...

Come on, you know exactly what Dreadclaw meant, otherwise you'd have made this point in your first reply.

**AlmightyWalrus**

Allod wrote:
AlmightyWalrus wrote:
Allod wrote:
AlmightyWalrus wrote:
Dreadclaw69 wrote:
Senden wrote:
Are you telling me the the Catholic Church isn't a hate group?

Why only single out one religion?

Because it's the biggest, as well as the one related to the topic at hand?

Related to the topic? The AFA is Catholic? That's probably the real news here.

In fact, I think the biggest news is that Catholicism is apparently a religion, as opposed to a denomination of Christianity...

Come on, you know exactly what Dreadclaw meant, otherwise you'd have made this point in your first reply.

If someone's saying that there's one religion that's been singled out, and the person he's quoting is talking about the Catholic Church, it doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out which religion he feels is being singled out. I thus commented that it's relevant to the organisation being discussed. You then incorrectly assumed that I'd said that the AFA is Catholic, which isn't the case.

**Dreadclaw69**

AlmightyWalrus wrote:
Dreadclaw69 wrote:
Senden wrote:
Are you telling me the the Catholic Church isn't a hate group?

Why only single out one religion?

Because it's the biggest, as well as the one related to the topic at hand?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catholic_Church
"Church membership in 2011 was 1.214 billion (17.5% of the world population)"

http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2013/06/07/worlds-muslim-population-more-widespread-than-you-might-think/
"There are about 1.6 billion Muslims, or 23% of the world’s population"

So you're wrong about the biggest, and how does one Christian denomination make the Catholic comparison a related topic? Especially when Senden brought out events from centuries ago?

Automatically Appended Next Post:

AlmightyWalrus wrote:
If someone's saying that there's one religion that's been singled out, and the person he's quoting is talking about the Catholic Church, it doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out which religion he feels is being singled out. I thus commented that it's relevant to the organisation being discussed. You then incorrectly assumed that I'd said that the AFA is Catholic, which isn't the case.

It doesn't take a rocket scientist either to figure out that the comparison with the Catholic Church was a mighty stretch, especially when the examples given are from centuries ago when the Catholic Church wielded political power that it no longer possesses.

**Allod**

I am assuming that Dreadclaw meant "Why single out the Catholic Church?", as the comment he referred to used that term and not "Christianity".

Either way it's hard to say what the Inquisition has to do with the topic at hand as the Catholic Church isn't involved and I wouldn't blame some evangelical nutjobs for the prosecution of the Cathars, either.

EDIT: Ninja'd by aforementioned Dreadclaw.

**SilverMK2**

Dreadclaw69 wrote:
So you're wrong about the biggest

It could reasonably be assumed that he meant "the biggest religion in the place we are talking about", in which case the Catholic church is the largest single grouping (about 5 times larger than the next largest single religious group).

**Dreadclaw69**

SilverMK2 wrote:
It could reasonably be assumed that he meant "the biggest religion in the place we are talking about", in which case the Catholic church is the largest single grouping (about 5 times larger than the next largest single religious group).

Is it reasonable to ignore the rest of the post?

Dreadclaw69 wrote:
So you're wrong about the biggest, and how does one Christian denomination make the Catholic comparison a related topic? Especially when Senden brought out events from centuries ago?
. . .
It doesn't take a rocket scientist either to figure out that the comparison with the Catholic Church was a mighty stretch, especially when the examples given are from centuries ago when the Catholic Church wielded political power that it no longer possesses.

**Ahtman**

SilverMK2 wrote:
Dreadclaw69 wrote:
So you're wrong about the biggest

It could reasonably be assumed that he meant "the biggest religion in the place we are talking about", in which case the Catholic church is the largest single grouping (about 5 times larger than the next largest single religious group).

Protestants outnumber Catholics in the US.

**SilverMK2**

Dreadclaw69 wrote:
Is it reasonable to ignore the rest of the post?

I was not commenting about anything in the post as I had nothing to say about it, nor do I really care one way or the other. I was simply pointing out that it is reasonable to assume that he was talking about the religious make up of the USA.

Kind of like when people complain "why do you always pick on the Christians?!?!", handily ignoring that most people here (or on any English speaking board) will come from countries with a Christian background and it will be the religion they have the most daily contact with and the most knowledge about.

Again - the rest of your post I was not addressing, so yes, I would say it is entirely reasonable for me to ignore it.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Ahtman wrote:
SilverMK2 wrote:
Dreadclaw69 wrote:
So you're wrong about the biggest

It could reasonably be assumed that he meant "the biggest religion in the place we are talking about", in which case the Catholic church is the largest single grouping (about 5 times larger than the next largest single religious group).

Protestants outnumber Catholics in the US.

The Catholic Church is the largest single religious group. Taken as a whole I am sure there are more protestants than Catholics. However, Protestants are spread over a number of different groups.

**Dreadclaw69**

SilverMK2 wrote:
I was not commenting about anything in the post as I had nothing to say about it, nor do I really care one way or the other. I was simply pointing out that it is reasonable to assume that he was talking about the religious make up of the USA.

Kind of like when people complain "why do you always pick on the Christians?!?!", handily ignoring that most people here (or on any English speaking board) will come from countries with a Christian background and it will be the religion they have the most daily contact with and the most knowledge about.

Again - the rest of your post I was not addressing, so yes, I would say it is entirely reasonable for me to ignore it.

So you had nothing to say, don't care one way or another, but you still felt the need to make inferences about another person's argument? Good to know

Your point then, as minimal as it was, is still wrong. Protestant denominations are more prevalent than Catholicism in the US.

But if you still feel the need to split hairs I'll just point out (again) that the incidents being dredged up for the "OMG Catholics are a hate group" are centuries old, and speak of a time when the Church was very different.

**LordofHats**

There are more Catholics than all Protestants combined world wide. The Catholic Church and Islam as a whole account for 40% of the world's population.

**Dreadclaw69**

LordofHats wrote:
There are more Catholics than all Protestants combined world wide. The Catholic Church and Islam as a whole account for 40% of the world's population.

Not disputing that. But the arguments so far as to why Catholics were mentioned was;
1) They are the most numerous (no qualification as to whether it is global or not) - Islam has more followers
2) It is the most numerous religion in the US - Protestantism in all its flavours is more numerous

Even if we are the points being raised as to why Catholics are a hate group are centuries old

**AlmightyWalrus**

Dreadclaw69 wrote:
AlmightyWalrus wrote:
Dreadclaw69 wrote:
Senden wrote:
Are you telling me the the Catholic Church isn't a hate group?

Why only single out one religion?

Because it's the biggest, as well as the one related to the topic at hand?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catholic_Church
"Church membership in 2011 was 1.214 billion (17.5% of the world population)"

http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2013/06/07/worlds-muslim-population-more-widespread-than-you-might-think/
"There are about 1.6 billion Muslims, or 23% of the world’s population"

So you're wrong about the biggest, and how does one Christian denomination make the Catholic comparison a related topic? Especially when Senden brought out events from centuries ago?]/quote]

If you mean the Catholic denomination it might be a good idea to say that, as opposed to "religion", since that would imply you're talking about Christianity as a whole.

Allod wrote:
I am assuming that Dreadclaw meant "Why single out the Catholic Church?", as the comment he referred to used that term and not "Christianity".

And I assumed he was talking about religion in general, as he mentioned it. Ambiguous post is ambiguous.

**LordofHats**

Well that goes back to the last time someone accused the military of targeting Christians for going after these guys: Catholic Anti-Semites who are so bad the Catholic Church excommunicates them.

**SilverMK2**

Dreadclaw69 wrote:
Your point then, as minimal as it was, is still wrong. Protestant denominations are more prevalent than Catholicism in the US.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_the_United_States#Religion

Order by followers - the Catholic church is the largest single group, as I have now said for the 3rd time.

But if you still feel the need to split hairs

If you still feel the need to invest far more into this than is required I am sure I can come up with a suitable reply...

I'll just point out (again) that the incidents being dredged up for the "OMG Catholics are a hate group" are centuries old, and speak of a time when the Church was very different.

...Indeed.

Happy now?

Edit: Corrected number of times I have said that the Catholic church is the single largest religious group in the US - it somehow seemed like I had said it more times!

**Dreadclaw69**

AlmightyWalrus wrote:
If you mean the Catholic denomination it might be a good idea to say that, as opposed to "religion", since that would imply you're talking about Christianity as a whole.

Yes, because clearly saying Catholic meant that I was talking about Christianity..... The fact that I went out of my way to distinguish between the Catholic religion and Protestant religions could have in no way provided any context for you to realise that your assumption was actually erroneous

AlmightyWalrus wrote:
And I assumed he was talking about religion in general, as he mentioned it. Ambiguous post is ambiguous.

Given that fact that I mentioned the Catholic faith, and provided links that covered just the Catholic faith, and that I distinguished the Catholic faith from other Christian religions might give you just the tiniest clue what I meant. It was only ambiguous if you managed to mis-read the actual post and the links contained therein

**AlmightyWalrus**

Dreadclaw69 wrote:
Senden wrote:
Are you telling me the the Catholic Church isn't a hate group?

Why only single out one religion?

Good thing you specified you were talking about Catholics there when you said "religion"...

**Dreadclaw69**

SilverMK2 wrote:
Dreadclaw69 wrote:
Your point then, as minimal as it was, is still wrong. Protestant denominations are more prevalent than Catholicism in the US.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_the_United_States#Religion

Order by followers - the Catholic church is the largest single group, as I have now said for the 3rd time.

It is almost like you're going out of your way to misread what I've been saying..... So in case you missed it (which might be difficult to claim as you quoted it above...)

Dreadclaw69 wrote:
Protestant denominations are more prevalent than Catholicism in the US

Dreadclaw69 wrote:
Protestantism in all its flavours is more numerous

SilverMK2 wrote:
If you still feel the need to invest far more into this than is required I am sure I can come up with a suitable reply...

If you feel the need to continue to split hairs and miss the point that is being made (even after you quote it) then I'm sure your reply will be a work of literary magnificence

**SilverMK2**

Dreadclaw69 wrote:
It is almost like you're going out of your way to misread what I've been saying..... So in case you missed it (which might be difficult to claim as you quoted it above...)

No, I understand exactly what you said - you seem to misunderstand what I have been saying. There is a difference between the Catholic Church and Catholicism, just as there is a difference between, say, Southern Baptist Convention and Protestantism. One is a group contained within the other. There are, as you seem to continue to insist in telling me despite me having agreed with you that it is the case, more Protestants than Catholics in the USA, however (and now I shall switch to capitals, bolded and italic'd just for emphasis and underlining for especially important words in case you continue to not understand the distinction), THE CATHOLIC CHURCH IS THE LARGEST SINGLE GROUP IN THE USA.

**Dreadclaw69**

AlmightyWalrus wrote:
Dreadclaw69 wrote:
Senden wrote:
Are you telling me the the Catholic Church isn't a hate group?

Why only single out one religion?

Good thing you specified you were talking about Catholics there when you said "religion"...

Catholicism is a religion, it is also a Christian denomination.

But the fact that I asked why the Catholic faith was being singled out was clearly ambiguous, right? I mean its not like I kept talking about the Catholic faith and providing links is it?? Or as if I tried to distinguish between Catholicism and other Christian faiths, right???

Dreadclaw69 wrote:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catholic_Church
"Church membership in 2011 was 1.214 billion (17.5% of the world population)"
. . .So you're wrong about the biggest, and how does one Christian denomination make the Catholic comparison a related topic? Especially when Senden brought out events from centuries ago?

Dreadclaw69 wrote:
It doesn't take a rocket scientist either to figure out that the comparison with the Catholic Church was a mighty stretch, especially when the examples given are from centuries ago when the Catholic Church wielded political power that it no longer possesses.

Dreadclaw69 wrote:
Protestant denominations are more prevalent than Catholicism in the US.

Dreadclaw69 wrote:
Not disputing that. But the arguments so far as to why Catholics were mentioned was;
1) They are the most numerous (no qualification as to whether it is global or not) - Islam has more followers
2) It is the most numerous religion in the US - Protestantism in all its flavours is more numerous

In your case I'm starting to think that the problem lies at your end, and is located somewhere between the chair and the screen

Automatically Appended Next Post:

SilverMK2 wrote:
No, I understand exactly what you said - you seem to misunderstand what I have been saying. There is a difference between the Catholic Church and Catholicism, just as there is a difference between, say, Southern Baptist Convention and Protestantism. One is a group contained within the other. There are, as you seem to continue to insist in telling me despite me having agreed with you that it is the case, more Protestants than Catholics in the USA, however (and now I shall switch to capitals, bolded and italic'd just for emphasis and underlining for especially important words in case you continue to not understand the distinction), THE CATHOLIC CHURCH IS THE LARGEST SINGLE GROUP IN THE USA.

And thank you for pointing out the obvious, in spite of the fact that I have not disgreed with that point.

You said that you agreed with the point I was making. I haven't said that you're wrong. Yet you keep feeling the need to tell me that I'm taking all flavours of Catholicism and comparing it to all flavours of Protestantism when I already said that was what I was doing to begin with

**AlmightyWalrus**

I think you'll find that I posted this:

AlmightyWalrus wrote:
Dreadclaw69 wrote:
Senden wrote:
Are you telling me the the Catholic Church isn't a hate group?

Why only single out one religion?

Because it's the biggest, as well as the one related to the topic at hand?

before any of the posts you just linked, but I suppose I should've just been prescient, right?

**SilverMK2**

Dreadclaw69 wrote:
You said that you agreed with the point I was making. I haven't said that you're wrong. Yet you keep feeling the need to tell me that I'm taking all flavours of Catholicism and comparing it to all flavours of Protestantism when I already said that was what I was doing to begin with

I don't recall telling you that. You, from my understanding, seemed to keep on insisting that I was telling you that catholics made up the majority of christians in the USA - I have been attempting to explain that is not in fact what I have been saying.

I'm not sure where the confusion has come from, but apparently it is there!

**Dreadclaw69**

AlmightyWalrus wrote:
I think you'll find that I posted this:

AlmightyWalrus wrote:
Dreadclaw69 wrote:
Senden wrote:
Are you telling me the the Catholic Church isn't a hate group?

Why only single out one religion?

Because it's the biggest, as well as the one related to the topic at hand?

before any of the posts you just linked, but I suppose I should've just been prescient, right?

You mean that post after where I specifically asked about the Catholic religion? The post that didn't ask about Christians, but that was in reply to a specific point about Catholics? That post?? You don't need to be prescient, just be able to read what is said and not just what you want to read

**Sgt_Scruffy**

As (not) amusing and pedantic as this semantics debate has been, can we get back to the original topic? Being a 12 year veteran of the US Army, I can honestly say I've never seen a brief that listed the AFA as a hate group - maybe it's a new decision. Looks to me like someone or some installation equal opportunity office put together a brief and pulled data from the SPLC which is not a government institution.

EDIT: because misspelling pedantic is just asking for it.

**Dreadclaw69**

SilverMK2 wrote:
I don't recall telling you that. You, from my understanding, seemed to keep on insisting that I was telling you that catholics made up the majority of christians in the USA - I have been attempting to explain that is not in fact what I have been saying.

I'm not sure where the confusion has come from, but apparently it is there!

You've been saying that they are the single largest Christian denomination, I have been saying that there are still more Protestants (as a whole) than Catholics. Would you say that is correct?

**AlmightyWalrus**

Dreadclaw69 wrote:
AlmightyWalrus wrote:
I think you'll find that I posted this:

AlmightyWalrus wrote:
Dreadclaw69 wrote:
Senden wrote:
Are you telling me the the Catholic Church isn't a hate group?

Why only single out one religion?

Because it's the biggest, as well as the one related to the topic at hand?

before any of the posts you just linked, but I suppose I should've just been prescient, right?

You mean that post after where I specifically asked about the Catholic religion? The post that didn't ask about Christians, but that was in reply to a specific point about Catholics? That post?? You don't need to be prescient, just be able to read what is said and not just what you want to read

You said religion, not the Catholic denomination. You can claim that Catholicism is a separate religion all you want, but you'd be wrong. I'm starting to think that you could do with reading your own posts.

**SilverMK2**

Dreadclaw69 wrote:
You've been saying that they are the single largest Christian denomination, I have been saying that there are still more Protestants (as a whole) than Catholics. Would you say that is correct?

I think that, given our recent clarifications, more or less sums things up. Yes.

**Dreadclaw69**

AlmightyWalrus wrote:
You said religion, not the Catholic denomination. You can claim that Catholicism is a separate religion all you want, but you'd be wrong. I'm starting to think that you could do with reading your own posts.

So by saying Catholic religion you mistook that for Christianity? Again, the fault lies with you, not I.

Catholicism is a religious faith, the fact that it is also a Christian denomination is not mutually exclusive to this fact.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religion

Religion is an organized collection of beliefs, cultural systems, and world views that relate humanity to an order of existence.[note 1] Many religions have narratives, symbols, and sacred histories that are intended to explain the meaning of life and/or to explain the origin of life or the Universe. From their beliefs about the cosmos and human nature, people derive morality, ethics, religious laws or a preferred lifestyle. According to some estimates, there are roughly 4,200 religions in the world.[1]

Many religions may have organized behaviors, clergy, a definition of what constitutes adherence or membership, holy places, and scriptures. The practice of a religion may also include rituals, sermons, commemoration or veneration of a deity, gods or goddesses, sacrifices, festivals, feasts, trance, initiations, funerary services, matrimonial services, meditation, prayer, music, art, dance, public service or other aspects of human culture. Religions may also contain mythology

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/religion

the belief in a god or in a group of gods
: an organized system of beliefs, ceremonies, and rules used to worship a god or a group of gods
: an interest, a belief, or an activity that is very important to a person or group

Automatically Appended Next Post:

SilverMK2 wrote:
I think that, given our recent clarifications, more or less sums things up. Yes.

So we're just sort of talking past each other here, each of us making our own points that are both correct.

**SilverMK2**

Dreadclaw69 wrote:
So we're just sort of talking past each other here, each of us making our own points that are both correct.

Rabble rabble rabble!

**AlmightyWalrus**

Dreadclaw69 wrote:
AlmightyWalrus wrote:
You said religion, not the Catholic denomination. You can claim that Catholicism is a separate religion all you want, but you'd be wrong. I'm starting to think that you could do with reading your own posts.

So by saying Catholic religion you mistook that for Christianity? Again, the fault lies with you, not I.

Catholicism is a religious faith, the fact that it is also a Christian denomination is not mutually exclusive to this fact.

Wikipedia wrote:A Christian denomination is an identifiable religious body under a common name, structure, and doctrine within Christianity.

So, normally you'd be right, but there's a specific word for a sub-religion of Christianity, which is why referring to Christianity as a religion proper is ambiguous and confusing.