Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

so, as a Blood angels and Dark angels player, how should I deal with them? usually as DA I just ignore them and have my terminators kills most of the ground troops. any other thoughts? I really need help for my BA

Ally in a couple Vendettas

IssacClarkeisBatman99 wrote:
Ally in a couple Vendettas

Right idea, you need some anti-aircraft.

Hyperios Missile Batteries
Contemptor Mortis Dread, dual Kheres and cyclone, or autocannons and a cyclone.....not for BA sadly....for some reason unless they ally in.
Mortis Dread with dual autocannons
ADL + quad-cannon or Icarus
Storm Raven
Vendettas/Sabre Defense platforms with lascannons
Other allies, Tau missile-sides or Ion riptide, stalker/hunter or Storm Talon

Pretty much in that order in my opinion.

What is your DA list like?
DW don't really worry about Helldrakes, but RW does.
Knowing that will also give us an idea what the best ally options you have.

Belail. DW terms. DW knights. 1-2 RW/BK depending on points. And eziekial. Like I said my DA kinda just ignore them ATM blood angels are mostly 3+ while I love saying "5+" on flamer and vector strike its just not enough :/

UnadoptedPuppy wrote:
What is your DA list like?
DW don't really worry about Helldrakes, but RW does.
Knowing that will also give us an idea what the best ally options you have.

RW Bikers can space out to minimize the impact of the flamer template.

 raiden wrote:
Belail. DW terms. DW knights. 1-2 RW/BK depending on points. And eziekial. Like I said my DA kinda just ignore them ATM blood angels are mostly 3+ while I love saying "5+" on flamer and vector strike its just not enough :/

Storm Ravens with Multi-Melta, lascannon and missile will make Helldrakes cry, also BA can build a pretty effective Mech Army which would be a good defense against the Hell Turkeys.

 wuestenfux wrote:

UnadoptedPuppy wrote:
What is your DA list like?
DW don't really worry about Helldrakes, but RW does.
Knowing that will also give us an idea what the best ally options you have.

RW Bikers can space out to minimize the impact of the flamer template.

It is almost impossible to deny him 3 hits because of the flexibility the helldrake has in placing the template. It can also vector strike them. At Ld8 and 3d6 fallback, the following test is scary too.

The best defense is interceptor skyfire weapons. Easiest available is the icarus lascannon, and dark angels have the FW mortis dread, which can have two interceptor/skyfire lascannons for 150pts. Take two dreads and an icarus, and give the drakes something to really sweat about.

The second best is to bring AA without interceptor, like your own aircraft. With this solution, you must minimize the impact the dragons will have. I design my armies to be able to reserve the most critical parts for just this situation. It sounds like your DA can do this, and BA can do the same. They have access to great AA in the stormraven, and everything can have a transport that the drake can`t touch.

 Carnage43 wrote:

IssacClarkeisBatman99 wrote:
Ally in a couple Vendettas

Right idea, you need some anti-aircraft.

Hyperios Missile Batteries
Contemptor Mortis Dread, dual Kheres and cyclone, or autocannons and a cyclone.....not for BA sadly....for some reason unless they ally in.
Mortis Dread with dual autocannons
ADL + quad-cannon or Icarus
Storm Raven
Vendettas/Sabre Defense platforms with lascannons
Other allies, Tau missile-sides or Ion riptide, stalker/hunter or Storm Talon

Pretty much in that order in my opinion.

everything there exept icarus lascannon.

wont do enough damage to it before it wrecks your army.

what isually do is hide in wave serpents, watch the helldrake do nothing, shen thoots it out of the sky with 44 TL shots at s6-7.

Storm ravens are actually pretty decent at it. The TL/MM shot can be a big problem for them. STR 8 missiles can cause problems as well.

Icarus lascannon on its own is less useful than a quadgun.

Pair it up with contemptor mortises, or lascannon sabres, however, and it synergises better (quad is going for HP kills, las for one-shots or cripplings with pen results) while also saving points.

A quadgun is also not enough firepower alone, although allied codex marines with an AA tank do fairly well with it, averaging at least one kill via HP damage per turn against. Helturkeys, iirc.

It takes more than 8 TL autocannon shots to bring down the helldrake on average.

Isnt the storm raven ungodly-expensive though? =/

Round 200 points? =/

I don't play SM enough to know their point costs.

200pts will get you a TL-MM, TL Assault Cannon, and 4 Blood/Storm Strike Missiles. That is a lot of anti-air firepower for it's points.

The lascannon is better against hellturkeys. The AC no longer gets AP 2 on its pens, and so it actually sucks against the helldrake.

I perfer the AC on the Stormraven though, simply for the flexability.

Hurricane bolters + AC for anti-infantry.
MM + Missiles for anti-armor

I understand, but truly the only reason I even use the thing is a hedge against helldrakes. For any other function, anti-tank, anti-infantry, or transport, I can find another unit that's WAY more efficient.

Aegis with comms, three Stormravens escorted by three Stormtalons.

Hellturkeys will fall.

You cant. This is the reason they are in so many tourney lists to the point people ally for them. They cannot be cost effectively countered while maintaining the ability to combat the rest of the threats you will see.

 zephoid wrote:
You cant. This is the reason they are in so many tourney lists to the point people ally for them. They cannot be cost effectively countered while maintaining the ability to combat the rest of the threats you will see.

Quoted for truth I do believe.

Yeah.. See... That's kinda what I mean.. You take the Heldrake to basically roast inf (TEQ aside) and you can pop Xports and other air vehicles with Vector Strike (str7)

For my opponent to require a Storm Raven in that manner would mean he is either A) Lacking sufficient choices in other aspects of the board (IE Troops or scoring units) or B) Literally tailoring for Helturkeys alone =/

 obsidiankatana wrote:
Aegis with comms, three Stormravens escorted by three Stormtalons.

Hellturkeys will fall.

I'm not sure how good Space Marine aircav really is.

Martel732 wrote:

I'm not sure how good Space Marine aircav really is.

All SpaceMarines aircrafts are either expensive (Storm Raven) or just awful (everything else).

AstraVlad wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

I'm not sure how good Space Marine aircav really is.

All SpaceMarines aircrafts are either expensive (Storm Raven) or just awful (everything else).

The Stormtalon in some ways is more efficient than the Storm Raven. But the DA aircraft suck hard.

Martel732 wrote:

 obsidiankatana wrote:
Aegis with comms, three Stormravens escorted by three Stormtalons.

Hellturkeys will fall.

I'm not sure how good Space Marine aircav really is.

It isn't good at all...

If someone is bringing that in a 3-4k game you can guarantee the chaos player will have anti air and 3 drakes at that value...

I've played a 3k game where I told my opponent I was bringing 3 Drakes and he admitted to bringing 3 Ravens.. That was his only anti air... and he did NOT do well. Simply put, he lost out on roughly 60 points bringing those big things and I managed to save nearly enough for my Quadgun + Dline from the price difference...

Now, I know, I know statistically, numbers say different, but realistically, there was no point for him to waste 600 points of his army on 3 situational flyers... there was however a solid reason for me to bring 510 points worth (3) Heldrakes.

All in all, I actually killed 2 outright with Vector strikes and lost 1 Drake turn 5 when I put in hover mode to deny cap. The point I'm trying to make is that if you want to try and kill Drakes, you need to bring something like the Talon, its waaaay cheaper, and a heck of a lot less situational.

Trading out the TL HB for a TL Lascannon is a better option to couple with the 4 shots from the Auto-Cannon. I find taking 3 can lay the hurt on any drake (or drakes if the luck of the dice favors you) in sufficient amounts, plus, its a heck of a lot cheaper.

GoliothOnline wrote:
The point I'm trying to make is that if you want to try and kill Drakes, you need to bring something like the Talon, its waaaay cheaper, and a heck of a lot less situational.

Talons are a paper-thin crap (AV11, 2HP). I will not recommend them at all.

Effective placement and coherency can be as effective as any aa gun. Spread out in thin line and make him have to either slow down and be vulnerable to regular guns in order to hit anything. Aegis liens with quad guns work well, especially with interceptor.

AstraVlad wrote:

GoliothOnline wrote:
The point I'm trying to make is that if you want to try and kill Drakes, you need to bring something like the Talon, its waaaay cheaper, and a heck of a lot less situational.

Talons are a paper-thin crap (AV11, 2HP). I will not recommend them at all.

They also only cost 140 points, with the upg lascannon that is.

I have had much better luck with them, and my opponents have had MUCH better luck running them against me and my Drakes.. So, to each their own I suppose...

GoliothOnline wrote:

They also only cost 140 points, with the upg lascannon that is.

At the same cost you can have Vendetta with 3 TL LC and 2 HBs. And it is AV12 with 3HP.

GoliothOnline wrote:

I have had much better luck with them, and my opponents have had MUCH better luck running them against me and my Drakes..

Why didn't you just vector striked them to death? With D3+1 S7 hits you almost garanteed to have at least 1 pen.

It's not guaranteed. It's a 1-((.666)^D3+1) chance. Also, talons have a tendency to fly behind the drakes in order to shoot them in AV 10 with assault cannons. Also, clever marine players can put their talons in inconvenient places.