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2013/10/21 10:31:24
Subject: Warning to the Community: Defiance Games rip off
Breotan wrote: All I can say is that the KS thread had warnings posted very early on from people in the community. Those of you who pledged did so after ignoring them. I was initially going to make a comment about caveat emptor but since fraud is an exception to that, I think instead I'll stick with the old saying about fools and their money.
What an incredibly insensitive thing to say. I mean, this is this guy's livelihood, and you see fit to come and point and laugh? Wow. Well, I guess it's not Dakka without Blame The Victim.
I hope Ken gets made whole. Maybe some community pressure will help.
Excuse me, but are we reading the same comment? He was referring to the people who pledged to the kickstarter despite the warnings, and I don't see any laughing anywhere.
Also, what he is saying is true, how unfortunate as it may be. It would be similar to still ordering stuff from Maelstrom after it became clear the poo had hit the fan.
2013/10/21 11:54:21
Subject: Re:Warning to the Community: Defiance Games rip off
Final update. I am going to post this on the 3 forums this is being talked about on.
I have e-mailed Gary. I want to apologize to him for attacking him so vocally. He has convinced me that every thing was Tony's fault. Tony seems to have used him as a human shield and he has gotten a machine gun blast of my crude attacks. I need to check my targets before going full auto.
I know a lot of inside info regarding Defiance that would make it obvious that he is attempting the impossible. He is bailing the Titanic with a tea spoon.
I am writing off this debt. Defiance has to pay me nothing. Live and learn as they say. I want this to be over with.
I am doing this because it may interfere with the kick starter delivery and I do not want 600 people blaming me because they did not get their prizes.
So that's it then. Over, all cleared up. I am dropping all amounts due me. Not paid, but not owed. If they want to be nice maybe they can send me a box of female marines.
Have a nice day.
2013/10/21 12:13:12
Subject: Warning to the Community: Defiance Games rip off
Eilif wrote: To be fair to DG, they have delivered their products, just very late, and, IMO, with subpar results for the last 3 spincast miniatures products.
They delivered all the little jeep/MATV things folks ordered?
Somehow I suspect not.
Every time a terrorist dies a Paratrooper gets his wings.
2013/10/21 14:17:29
Subject: Re:Warning to the Community: Defiance Games rip off
Well that's an odd turn of events, especially given what was posted before. I wouldn't be accepting excuses so easily. They took over the business, they shouldn't shirk responsibility in the dubious way they tried to. I wonder what they told him exactly to make him do a complete u-turn?
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/10/21 14:17:52
You're a stand-up guy Ken. It's not many people who'd do what you've done. I'm heading right over to your website to see what you've got that interests me
I just bought a giant box of the 28mm sci fi buildings and barricades and I couldn't be more happier (I plan on building a Judge Dredd Mega City Block and placed an initial test order)
it is cheap, dual sided (infinity/star trek smooth on one side, mercs/industrial on the other) and is completely modular so you can build larger or multistory buildings.
Go buy some now!
"...and special thanks to Judgedoug!" - Alessio Cavatore "Now you've gone too far Doug! ... Too far... " - Rick Priestley "I've decided that I'd rather not have you as a member of TMP." - Editor, The Miniatures Page "I'd rather put my testicles through a mangle than spend any time gaming with you." - Richard, TooFatLardies "We need a Doug Craig in every store." - Warlord Games "Thank you for being here, Judge Doug!" - Adam Troke
2013/10/21 15:25:48
Subject: Warning to the Community: Defiance Games rip off
Maybe head over to Rust Forge and buy a shipping container or two as well? I know that mike and I would appreciate it AND every sale of a shipping container helps Ken as well since he is the one who manufactures them for me.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/10/21 15:29:10
The Orks are the pinnacle of creation. For them, the great struggle is won. They have evolved a society which knows no stress or angst. Who are we to judge them? We Eldar who have failed, or the Humans, on the road to ruin in their turn? And why? Because we sought answers to questions that an Ork wouldn't even bother to ask! We see a culture that is strong and despise it as crude.
2013/10/21 15:50:48
Subject: Re:Warning to the Community: Defiance Games rip off
kenofyork wrote: I am doing this because it may interfere with the kick starter delivery and I do not want 600 people blaming me because they did not get their prizes
No problem, Defiance will find another excuse to not deliver
YES! That's why we need some orders as well! Hook some brothers up, please.
The Orks are the pinnacle of creation. For them, the great struggle is won. They have evolved a society which knows no stress or angst. Who are we to judge them? We Eldar who have failed, or the Humans, on the road to ruin in their turn? And why? Because we sought answers to questions that an Ork wouldn't even bother to ask! We see a culture that is strong and despise it as crude.
2013/10/21 16:44:12
Subject: Warning to the Community: Defiance Games rip off
Yes, definitely pick up those barriers from Proxie (or the tons of awesome bases he offers!). I have both the barriers and the TONS of his bases, and they're amazing... and so cheap!
The shipping containers look great for terrain, too, and it would be great to support Rust Forge as well!
I still hope that Defiance Games pays back both companies, though- Ken of Proxie Model's generosity doesn't make me trust Defiance any further at all, particularly the language posted earlier about needing a written contract to honor their debts.
But, again it's awesome that Ken at Proxie Models is willing to forgive the debt... but the point is that he shouldn't have to!
2013/10/21 17:01:40
Subject: Re:Warning to the Community: Defiance Games rip off
kenofyork wrote: Final update. I am going to post this on the 3 forums this is being talked about on.
I have e-mailed Gary. I want to apologize to him for attacking him so vocally. He has convinced me that every thing was Tony's fault. Tony seems to have used him as a human shield and he has gotten a machine gun blast of my crude attacks. I need to check my targets before going full auto.
I know a lot of inside info regarding Defiance that would make it obvious that he is attempting the impossible. He is bailing the Titanic with a tea spoon.
I am writing off this debt. Defiance has to pay me nothing. Live and learn as they say. I want this to be over with.
I am doing this because it may interfere with the kick starter delivery and I do not want 600 people blaming me because they did not get their prizes.
So that's it then. Over, all cleared up. I am dropping all amounts due me. Not paid, but not owed. If they want to be nice maybe they can send me a box of female marines.
Have a nice day.
I am a backer and I would prefer for you to receive your money than to receive any rewards. I'm sure there are plenty of us who feel the same way. If Gary were to set up a poll and ask us how many of us would be willing to delay our rewards indefinitely (like that's much of a change) so that Defiance can pay you back, I'm sure there would be a large positive response.
When I pledged, I knew I might get screwed over. I had no idea that you were getting screwed over, and I find that unacceptable.
kenofyork wrote: Final update. I am going to post this on the 3 forums this is being talked about on.
I have e-mailed Gary. I want to apologize to him for attacking him so vocally. He has convinced me that every thing was Tony's fault. Tony seems to have used him as a human shield and he has gotten a machine gun blast of my crude attacks. I need to check my targets before going full auto.
I know a lot of inside info regarding Defiance that would make it obvious that he is attempting the impossible. He is bailing the Titanic with a tea spoon.
I am writing off this debt. Defiance has to pay me nothing. Live and learn as they say. I want this to be over with.
I am doing this because it may interfere with the kick starter delivery and I do not want 600 people blaming me because they did not get their prizes.
So that's it then. Over, all cleared up. I am dropping all amounts due me. Not paid, but not owed. If they want to be nice maybe they can send me a box of female marines.
Have a nice day.
I am a backer and I would prefer for you to receive your money than to receive any rewards. I'm sure there are plenty of us who feel the same way. If Gary were to set up a poll and ask us how many of us would be willing to delay our rewards indefinitely (like that's much of a change) so that Defiance can pay you back, I'm sure there would be a large positive response.
When I pledged, I knew I might get screwed over. I had no idea that you were getting screwed over, and I find that unacceptable.
I agree. I'd gladly take a delay or a 25$ hit over Ken not getting paid. In fact, if they could take my money and send it to him instead, I'd be fine with it.
GamesWorkshop wrote: And I would have gotten away with it too, if it weren't for you meddling kids!
2013/10/21 23:03:04
Subject: Warning to the Community: Defiance Games rip off
Shepherd23 wrote: Maybe head over to Rust Forge and buy a shipping container or two as well? I know that mike and I would appreciate it AND every sale of a shipping container helps Ken as well since he is the one who manufactures them for me.
kenofyork wrote: Final update. I am going to post this on the 3 forums this is being talked about on.
I have e-mailed Gary. I want to apologize to him for attacking him so vocally. He has convinced me that every thing was Tony's fault. Tony seems to have used him as a human shield and he has gotten a machine gun blast of my crude attacks. I need to check my targets before going full auto.
I know a lot of inside info regarding Defiance that would make it obvious that he is attempting the impossible. He is bailing the Titanic with a tea spoon.
I am writing off this debt. Defiance has to pay me nothing. Live and learn as they say. I want this to be over with.
I am doing this because it may interfere with the kick starter delivery and I do not want 600 people blaming me because they did not get their prizes.
So that's it then. Over, all cleared up. I am dropping all amounts due me. Not paid, but not owed. If they want to be nice maybe they can send me a box of female marines.
Have a nice day.
Ugh. Sorry, I appreciate that you are handling this in the best way that you can see to at the moment but, ugh.
How long before they do this again (because, it worked! Whoever's 'fault' it was in the rotating clown show of 3-4 employees they aren't paying a debt now) and cause another quality small business to falter or even fail?
Despite Proxies generous stance, if Defiance doesn't pay then they are just as shady as they were two days ago. "Succesfully" fulfilling your kickstarter while reneging on your debts does not mean you are turning your company around. Either start acting like a legitimate company or give it up and stop jeopardizing other businesses with your poisonous irresponsibility.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/10/21 23:38:25
2013/10/21 23:45:50
Subject: Warning to the Community: Defiance Games rip off
Shepherd23 wrote: Maybe head over to Rust Forge and buy a shipping container or two as well? I know that mike and I would appreciate it AND every sale of a shipping container helps Ken as well since he is the one who manufactures them for me.
I went to grab one or 2 and saw you have them on sale.. but they did not retain sale price once they hit the shopping cart..
Can you shed some light on this?
-P
I apologize for the confusion. I will contact Mike and have the issue resolved ASAP. If you could, give me until tomorrow morning and I will make sure it is resolved by them. Again, I am sorry about the confusion. I am betting that when we ran our last sale, the system flubbed the process of returning everything back to normal. I am going to have the sale prices extended from now until mid November. Thanks again for the order once it goes thru.
YES! That's why we need some orders as well! Hook some brothers up, please.
Is Ken actually in any position to "forgive" if thats the right word, said debt then?
TBH as noble as Kens actions seem to be I would question if its the right move. The company have a habit of this kind of deception and I don't like the idea of them continuing it with no consequences. I don't think paying back what one owes is much to ask.
2013/10/21 23:58:26
Subject: Warning to the Community: Defiance Games rip off
YES! That's why we need some orders as well! Hook some brothers up, please.
Is Ken actually in any position to "forgive" if thats the right word, said debt then?
TBH as noble as Kens actions seem to be I would question if its the right move. The company have a habit of this kind of deception and I don't like the idea of them continuing it with no consequences. I don't think paying back what one owes is much to ask.
I think Defiance owes Proxie directly and then also owes Rustforge for product that is produced (and was delivered directly to Defiance) by Proxie.
2013/10/22 00:43:37
Subject: Re:Warning to the Community: Defiance Games rip off
The sob story was horrendous. I am incredulous as to what to believe and what not to believe. Competing realities of various delusions. It is a train wreck of epic proportions. I was not going to get paid ever, as I stated earlier, so I wanted to throw my support for the 600 people about to lose their kick starter money.
My actions were not really noble, I am trying to salvage some kind of positive from a horrible deal I got in to. And maybe a little good public relations will pay off in the future.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/10/22 00:44:10
2013/10/22 00:55:34
Subject: Warning to the Community: Defiance Games rip off
I don't know the details, and there is every chance this isn't relevant to the US, but under British rules a Ltd company (an LLC in Murican) only protects its directors from personal financial liability as long as they are running the company in, iirc "a fair and honest manner" or certainly words to that effect.
Basically, without the details I can't really say for sure, if there is any suggestion that anyone involved with Defiance was drawing an unfairly high salary in relation to turnover, or in any way playing fast and loose with company money, then you can still take their house.
We find comfort among those who agree with us - growth among those who don't. - Frank Howard Clark
The wise man doubts often, and changes his mind; the fool is obstinate, and doubts not; he knows all things but his own ignorance.
The correct statement of individual rights is that everyone has the right to an opinion, but crucially, that opinion can be roundly ignored and even made fun of, particularly if it is demonstrably nonsense!” Professor Brian Cox
kenofyork wrote: I wanted to throw my support for the 600 people about to lose their kick starter money.
Nice gesture but let's face it, that train has left the station. My question is, what the heck are they doing with the money if they're not paying creditors/suppliers/backers?
2013/10/22 09:45:49
Subject: Warning to the Community: Defiance Games rip off
Wrong, as pointed out, Kickstarter puts all the risk on the backers. You select containers for this project? Tough cookies. You will be informed by Defiance they are no longer an option and will be offered something else in exchange. You will either say 'Thank You' like a good boy or complain about it, but Defiance has an out on accepting responsibility.
Every time a terrorist dies a Paratrooper gets his wings.
2013/10/22 20:09:33
Subject: Warning to the Community: Defiance Games rip off
CptJake wrote: Wrong, as pointed out, Kickstarter puts all the risk on the backers. You select containers for this project? Tough cookies. You will be informed by Defiance they are no longer an option and will be offered something else in exchange. You will either say 'Thank You' like a good boy or complain about it, but Defiance has an out on accepting responsibility.
This isn't actually the case... There are several avenues open to backers. One of which is to request a refund.
2013/10/22 20:21:17
Subject: Warning to the Community: Defiance Games rip off
CptJake, I don't know where you got that from. The Kickstarter terms certainly don't say that, and if you backed with a credit card you can almost guarantee that a statement like that will allow you to get your money back.
Unfortunately, in the latter case it's probably Kickstarter who lose the funds, not Defiance, though. Not that KS is going broke anytime soon
Jotenheim 137th - 2500pts
Shadow Angels - 3000pts
