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 chillis wrote:
I thought that for it to be a squadron that it had to include multiple vehicles not models? RAI I don't believe that IC's should be allowed but RAW is giving me a head ache

A squadron is any unit of vehicles that can be made up of 1 or more of said vehicles.

RAW is incredibly easy on this, if it is a vehicle the IC cannot join it.

And chronus , while the tank is alive, is not a model.

 DeathReaper wrote:

 Happyjew wrote:
The rule is that ICs cannot join units that always consist of a single model. Hive Tyrant (the unit) is a unit that always consists of a single model. Therefore, an IC can never join the (unit) Hive Tyrant. Besides the only reason an IC can join another IC is because the rules for IC specifically allow it, otherwise (except for Iyanden Spiritseer) IC's would never be able to join another IC as they are units that always consist of a single model.

No, the Hive Tyrant is not a unit that always consists of a single model, unless the Tyrant guard are somehow the same model as the Hive Tyrant itself, which of course is silly.

Please explain exactly when the Hive Tyrant unit consists of more than one model. Ever.
I'll wait.

rigeld2 wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:

 Happyjew wrote:
The rule is that ICs cannot join units that always consist of a single model. Hive Tyrant (the unit) is a unit that always consists of a single model. Therefore, an IC can never join the (unit) Hive Tyrant. Besides the only reason an IC can join another IC is because the rules for IC specifically allow it, otherwise (except for Iyanden Spiritseer) IC's would never be able to join another IC as they are units that always consist of a single model.

No, the Hive Tyrant is not a unit that always consists of a single model, unless the Tyrant guard are somehow the same model as the Hive Tyrant itself, which of course is silly.

Please explain exactly when the Hive Tyrant unit consists of more than one model. Ever.
I'll wait.

Hive Tyrant +1-3 Guard = more than one model...

rigeld2 wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:

 Happyjew wrote:
The rule is that ICs cannot join units that always consist of a single model. Hive Tyrant (the unit) is a unit that always consists of a single model. Therefore, an IC can never join the (unit) Hive Tyrant. Besides the only reason an IC can join another IC is because the rules for IC specifically allow it, otherwise (except for Iyanden Spiritseer) IC's would never be able to join another IC as they are units that always consist of a single model.

No, the Hive Tyrant is not a unit that always consists of a single model, unless the Tyrant guard are somehow the same model as the Hive Tyrant itself, which of course is silly.

Please explain exactly when the Hive Tyrant unit consists of more than one model. Ever.
I'll wait.

Its the problem that the BRB never states that an IC can be automatically separated from a unit.
The Tyranid Codex allows a Hive Tyrant to join a Tyrant Guard unit. Since the Tyrant Guard are a multi-model unit, an IC can join them (and the Hive Tyrant) as well. The problem arises when all the Tyrant Guard die, but leave the IC and the Hive Tyrant alive

Are they forced to unattached and what is forcing them to separate?

Please correct me if I have anything wrong.

 DeathReaper wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:

 Happyjew wrote:
The rule is that ICs cannot join units that always consist of a single model. Hive Tyrant (the unit) is a unit that always consists of a single model. Therefore, an IC can never join the (unit) Hive Tyrant. Besides the only reason an IC can join another IC is because the rules for IC specifically allow it, otherwise (except for Iyanden Spiritseer) IC's would never be able to join another IC as they are units that always consist of a single model.

No, the Hive Tyrant is not a unit that always consists of a single model, unless the Tyrant guard are somehow the same model as the Hive Tyrant itself, which of course is silly.

Please explain exactly when the Hive Tyrant unit consists of more than one model. Ever.
I'll wait.

Hive Tyrant +1-3 Guard = more than one model...

That would be a Guard unit, of which the Tyrant is a member.
The Tyrant can join the Guard, the Guard can't join the Tyrant.
So at no point is the Tyrant unit ever more than one model.

I voted no because the post and the poll are asking the exact opposite question. The answer to the post is no, the answer to the poll is yes.

 grendel083 wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:

 Happyjew wrote:
The rule is that ICs cannot join units that always consist of a single model. Hive Tyrant (the unit) is a unit that always consists of a single model. Therefore, an IC can never join the (unit) Hive Tyrant. Besides the only reason an IC can join another IC is because the rules for IC specifically allow it, otherwise (except for Iyanden Spiritseer) IC's would never be able to join another IC as they are units that always consist of a single model.

No, the Hive Tyrant is not a unit that always consists of a single model, unless the Tyrant guard are somehow the same model as the Hive Tyrant itself, which of course is silly.

Please explain exactly when the Hive Tyrant unit consists of more than one model. Ever.
I'll wait.

Hive Tyrant +1-3 Guard = more than one model...

That would be a Guard unit, of which the Tyrant is a member.
The Tyrant can join the Guard, the Guard can't join the Tyrant.
So at no point is the Tyrant unit ever more than one model.

Except for when he is with his guard.

Unless you are sauing that the Hive tyrant and up to 3 guard are a single model, but it does not seem like you are saying that so I have no Idea what you are talking about.

 DeathReaper wrote:

 grendel083 wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:

 Happyjew wrote:
The rule is that ICs cannot join units that always consist of a single model. Hive Tyrant (the unit) is a unit that always consists of a single model. Therefore, an IC can never join the (unit) Hive Tyrant. Besides the only reason an IC can join another IC is because the rules for IC specifically allow it, otherwise (except for Iyanden Spiritseer) IC's would never be able to join another IC as they are units that always consist of a single model.

No, the Hive Tyrant is not a unit that always consists of a single model, unless the Tyrant guard are somehow the same model as the Hive Tyrant itself, which of course is silly.

Please explain exactly when the Hive Tyrant unit consists of more than one model. Ever.
I'll wait.

Hive Tyrant +1-3 Guard = more than one model...

That would be a Guard unit, of which the Tyrant is a member.
The Tyrant can join the Guard, the Guard can't join the Tyrant.
So at no point is the Tyrant unit ever more than one model.

Except for when he is with his guard.

Unless you are sauing that the Hive tyrant and up to 3 guard are a single model, but it does not seem like you are saying that so I have no Idea what you are talking about.

What he is saying is that the hive tyrant unit is always a single model. There is no option to add the guard to his unit in his codex entry ergo he is a unit that only ever consist of a single model.

Having a hive tyrant allows you to take a separate unit of hive guard. Because they are a separate unit they do not increase the size of the hive tyrants unit past 1 model.

The guard unit has a special rule that allows a one ore more hive tyrants to join them as if the hive tyrant was an interdependent character. This special rule only works for the guard unit. The act of joining the guard unit does not increase the number of models in the hive tyrants unit, it only increases the number of models in the guard unit.

Deathreaper - what's being said here, is that the moment the Hive Tyrant joins the Tyrant Guard he becomes a member of the Tyrant Guard unit instead. I can't comment on whether this is true - I don't have the Codex - but it sounds kind of like the old retinue rules. In other words, the Hive Tyrant unit itself only ever consists of one model and the Tyrant Guard gets around that by changing the individual model's unit.

I don't suppose anyone could actually post up the rule for clarity?

Normally I wouldn't, but since it is in the FAQ:

Page 35 – Tyrant Guard, Shieldwall.
Change the first sentence of the second paragraph to read “A
single Hive Tyrant (including the Swarmlord) may join a unit
of Tyrant Guard exactly as if it had the Independent Character
special rule and, while part of the unit, is treated as such for
the purposes of Look Out Sir! rolls, Challenges, Precision
Shots and Precision Strikes”.

DeathReaper wrote:
Unless you are sauing that the Hive tyrant and up to 3 guard are a single model, but it does not seem like you are saying that so I have no Idea what you are talking about.

DR - what you are missing is that, as soon as the HT joins the Tyrant Guard, the Hive Tyrant unit ceases to exist. It is no more. It is an ex-unit. He *joins*, and becomes a normal member of, the Tyrant Guard. Therefore the IC joins the Tyrant Guard unit

At no point during its existence does the HT unit EVER consist of more than one model; the Tyrant Guard unit is the one that does.

nosferatu1001 wrote:


DR - what you are missing is that, as soon as the HT joins the Tyrant Guard, the Hive Tyrant unit ceases to exist. It is no more. It is an ex-unit. He *joins*, and becomes a normal member of, the Tyrant Guard. Therefore the IC joins the Tyrant Guard unit

At no point during its existence does the HT unit EVER consist of more than one model; the Tyrant Guard unit is the one that does.

I've actually been floating around the concept that the IC rules allow a model to be a member of two units simultaneously. I haven't thought of anything that proves it can't work this way. In this case the unit [Hive Tyrant] still only consists of a single model but the model is also a member of the unit [Hive Guard].

I don't recall anything that says they actually stop being their own unit. It seems to make some more complex issues go away. This means a Dark Angels Chaplain that has joined a Space Marine Assault Squad would not be allowed to board a Storm Raven because while he is a member of a Space Marine unit he is also a member of a Dark Angels unit. It also matches up to the way victory points and reserve unit counts add up. Other than being an usual concept to grasp for some it actually makes things very clean.

 DeathReaper wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:

 Happyjew wrote:
The rule is that ICs cannot join units that always consist of a single model. Hive Tyrant (the unit) is a unit that always consists of a single model. Therefore, an IC can never join the (unit) Hive Tyrant. Besides the only reason an IC can join another IC is because the rules for IC specifically allow it, otherwise (except for Iyanden Spiritseer) IC's would never be able to join another IC as they are units that always consist of a single model.

No, the Hive Tyrant is not a unit that always consists of a single model, unless the Tyrant guard are somehow the same model as the Hive Tyrant itself, which of course is silly.

Please explain exactly when the Hive Tyrant unit consists of more than one model. Ever.
I'll wait.

Hive Tyrant +1-3 Guard = more than one model...

More than one model in which unit? The Hive Tyrant unit never has more than one model. Ever. The Tyrant Guard unit does.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Nilok wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:

 Happyjew wrote:
The rule is that ICs cannot join units that always consist of a single model. Hive Tyrant (the unit) is a unit that always consists of a single model. Therefore, an IC can never join the (unit) Hive Tyrant. Besides the only reason an IC can join another IC is because the rules for IC specifically allow it, otherwise (except for Iyanden Spiritseer) IC's would never be able to join another IC as they are units that always consist of a single model.

No, the Hive Tyrant is not a unit that always consists of a single model, unless the Tyrant guard are somehow the same model as the Hive Tyrant itself, which of course is silly.

Please explain exactly when the Hive Tyrant unit consists of more than one model. Ever.
I'll wait.

Its the problem that the BRB never states that an IC can be automatically separated from a unit.
The Tyranid Codex allows a Hive Tyrant to join a Tyrant Guard unit. Since the Tyrant Guard are a multi-model unit, an IC can join them (and the Hive Tyrant) as well. The problem arises when all the Tyrant Guard die, but leave the IC and the Hive Tyrant alive

Are they forced to unattached and what is forcing them to separate?

Please correct me if I have anything wrong.

That has absolutely nothing to do with my question. The rules don't directly address that situation.

DJGietzen wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:


DR - what you are missing is that, as soon as the HT joins the Tyrant Guard, the Hive Tyrant unit ceases to exist. It is no more. It is an ex-unit. He *joins*, and becomes a normal member of, the Tyrant Guard. Therefore the IC joins the Tyrant Guard unit

At no point during its existence does the HT unit EVER consist of more than one model; the Tyrant Guard unit is the one that does.

I've actually been floating around the concept that the IC rules allow a model to be a member of two units simultaneously. I haven't thought of anything that proves it can't work this way. In this case the unit [Hive Tyrant] still only consists of a single model but the model is also a member of the unit [Hive Guard].

I don't recall anything that says they actually stop being their own unit. It seems to make some more complex issues go away. This means a Dark Angels Chaplain that has joined a Space Marine Assault Squad would not be allowed to board a Storm Raven because while he is a member of a Space Marine unit he is also a member of a Dark Angels unit. It also matches up to the way victory points and reserve unit counts add up. Other than being an usual concept to grasp for some it actually makes things very clean.

It's still a separate unit? Cool, I'll target the IC when I shoot instead of the free wounds.

right, but the IC is also a member of the other unit, so by targeting one unit you actually target both. But shooting/charging is a weakness in my theory I had not thought of.

 DJGietzen wrote:
right, but the IC is also a member of the other unit, so by targeting one unit you actually target both. But shooting/charging is a weakness in my theory I had not thought of.

Since you're questioning unit composition this might be a good thread to read and can make a difference on this subject as well.
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/547451.page

 DJGietzen wrote:
right, but the IC is also a member of the other unit, so by targeting one unit you actually target both. But shooting/charging is a weakness in my theory I had not thought of.

So I somehow have permission to target two units with my shooting/charging?
Could you cite that permission?

rigeld2 wrote:

 DJGietzen wrote:
right, but the IC is also a member of the other unit, so by targeting one unit you actually target both. But shooting/charging is a weakness in my theory I had not thought of.

So I somehow have permission to target two units with my shooting/charging?
Could you cite that permission?

Nope. Because this situation, like almost any situation where an IC has joined a unit, is not covered by the rules. I'm just suggesting a theory and in theory by targeting a unit that contains one or more models that are also members of a second unit you will have targeted the second unit as well.

Can you cite a rule that when an IC joins a unit, the IC stops being a member of his own unit?

 DJGietzen wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

 DJGietzen wrote:
right, but the IC is also a member of the other unit, so by targeting one unit you actually target both. But shooting/charging is a weakness in my theory I had not thought of.

So I somehow have permission to target two units with my shooting/charging?
Could you cite that permission?

Nope. Because this situation, like almost any situation where an IC has joined a unit, is not covered by the rules. I'm just suggesting a theory and in theory by targeting a unit that contains one or more models that are also members of a second unit you will have targeted the second unit as well.

Can you cite a rule that when an IC joins a unit, the IC stops being a member of his own unit?

No, the ic becomes a member of the unit joined for all rules purposes.
A unit is 1 or more models that operate together on the battlefield.

An IC joined to a unit is no longer a unit on his own(to ay otherwise would allow for the targeting of just the IC "Unit")

 Kommissar Kel wrote:


An IC joined to a unit is no longer a unit on his own(to ay otherwise would allow for the targeting of just the IC "Unit")

This is an assumption, a perfectly reasonable assumption but an assumption none the less. That is what I'm focusing on.

Strictly speaking something being a member of group A does not necessarily preclude it from being a member of group B. All GW has done is make him a member of the unit he has joined. Strictly speaking he is now a member of two units.

The targeting problem is a real problem, sure but RAW you would be correct, you should be able to target the IC even after he has joined a unit, I don't think any one will say that RAI this was what GW was going for but is an unfortunate accident because they did not tell us he stops being his own unit. If a unit containing an IC is destroyed then two units are destroyed, if a unit containing an IC is put in reserves is two units put in reserves. These are contradictory to the assumption that the IC is no longer a unit on his own.

The IC does not stop being a unit when joined to another, however you cannot target him because that is redirected at whichever unit he joined. Being a member for all purposes includes shooting at.

 DJGietzen wrote:

 Kommissar Kel wrote:


An IC joined to a unit is no longer a unit on his own(to ay otherwise would allow for the targeting of just the IC "Unit")

This is an assumption, a perfectly reasonable assumption but an assumption none the less. That is what I'm focusing on.

Strictly speaking something being a member of group A does not necessarily preclude it from being a member of group B. All GW has done is make him a member of the unit he has joined. Strictly speaking he is now a member of two units.

The targeting problem is a real problem, sure but RAW you would be correct, you should be able to target the IC even after he has joined a unit, I don't think any one will say that RAI this was what GW was going for but is an unfortunate accident because they did not tell us he stops being his own unit. If a unit containing an IC is destroyed then two units are destroyed, if a unit containing an IC is put in reserves is two units put in reserves. These are contradictory to the assumption that the IC is no longer a unit on his own.

Strictly speaking, and RAW; the whole is 1 unit. The IC becomes a member of the joined unit and the definition of a unit does not allow him to be a unit on his own any longer.

BRB Page 3; Units: "A unit usually consists of several models that have banded together, but a single, powerful model, such as a lone character, a tank, a war engine or a rampaging monster, is also considered to be a unit in its own right."

An IC joined to a unit is no longer a single, powerful model; in fact he has banded together with the unit he has joined, forming 1 unit.

As unit B within Unit A you must allow just unit B to be targeted, because while he is a part of Unit A, Unit A is not a part of unit B.

 DJGietzen wrote:

 Kommissar Kel wrote:


An IC joined to a unit is no longer a unit on his own(to ay otherwise would allow for the targeting of just the IC "Unit")

This is an assumption, a perfectly reasonable assumption but an assumption none the less. That is what I'm focusing on.

Your assumption is that it's possible for there to be two units. You're making that assumption with literally zero rules support and introducing a "real problem" when doing so.
He's a member of the unit for all rules purposes - that means when you're asked what unit he's a member of, you have to say "That one." not "That one and that other one."

If a unit containing an IC is destroyed then two units are destroyed, if a unit containing an IC is put in reserves is two units put in reserves. These are contradictory to the assumption that the IC is no longer a unit on his own.

Both of these are addressed using actual rules and do not require making something up out of whole cloth.

Its not an assumption on my part. If something is X and then later we know it is Y, it is not necessarily no longer X. it is possible that it is both X and Y. For us to know something cannot be X if it is Y we must know that X and Y are mutually exclusive. The game is a permissive rule set.. We know that an IC is a member of its own unit (X) and if it joins another unit it is a member of that unit (Y). We are not told that a IC that has joined another unit stops being a member of his own unit. We do not know that being a member of one unit is mutually exclusive to being a member of another unit. We do no have permission to remove the IC from his original unit, only to count him as a member of a different unit. I do not think that was GW's intent and the fact that if the character survives the rest of the unit he has joined being destroyed he "again become a unit of a single model".

I found the rule about the reserves. Your right, I thought it was worded in a way that supported my supposition but it did not. Where is the rule that makes it so an IC and a unit he has joined being wiped out simultaneously count as 2 units?

Purge the Alien doesn't count VPs until the end of the game, meaning the IC cannot be part of a unit (other than his own) at that time.

Please find a definition of unit in the rules that allows permission for 2 units in one. If you can't find one you don't have permission to consider him his own unit.

 DJGietzen wrote:
Its not an assumption on my part. If something is X and then later we know it is Y, it is not necessarily no longer X. it is possible that it is both X and Y. For us to know something cannot be X if it is Y we must know that X and Y are mutually exclusive. The game is a permissive rule set.. We know that an IC is a member of its own unit (X) and if it joins another unit it is a member of that unit (Y). We are not told that a IC that has joined another unit stops being a member of his own unit. We do not know that being a member of one unit is mutually exclusive to being a member of another unit. We do no have permission to remove the IC from his original unit, only to count him as a member of a different unit. I do not think that was GW's intent and the fact that if the character survives the rest of the unit he has joined being destroyed he "again become a unit of a single model".

I found the rule about the reserves. Your right, I thought it was worded in a way that supported my supposition but it did not. Where is the rule that makes it so an IC and a unit he has joined being wiped out simultaneously count as 2 units?

By the definition I have quoted it is necessarily no longer X.

In fact that little bit where he "again become a unit of a single model"; should tell you that he is not a unit of a single model while joined(otherwise he would not again become one, since your claim is that he still was one)

rigeld2 wrote:
Purge the Alien doesn't count VPs until the end of the game, meaning the IC cannot be part of a unit (other than his own) at that time.

Please find a definition of unit in the rules that allows permission for 2 units in one. If you can't find one you don't have permission to consider him his own unit.

So would a DE unit that managed to shoot, snipe, etc the IC out of the unit, get a power from pain token for destroying the IC ?

Fragile wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:
Purge the Alien doesn't count VPs until the end of the game, meaning the IC cannot be part of a unit (other than his own) at that time.

Please find a definition of unit in the rules that allows permission for 2 units in one. If you can't find one you don't have permission to consider him his own unit.

So would a DE unit that managed to shoot, snipe, etc the IC out of the unit, get a power from pain token for destroying the IC ?

Yes he would, because the FAQ says so:

Q: Do you gain a pain token for each independent character you kill,
even if he is in a unit? (p25)
A: Yes, as long as he still counts as an independent character.

 Happyjew wrote:

Fragile wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:
Purge the Alien doesn't count VPs until the end of the game, meaning the IC cannot be part of a unit (other than his own) at that time.

Please find a definition of unit in the rules that allows permission for 2 units in one. If you can't find one you don't have permission to consider him his own unit.

So would a DE unit that managed to shoot, snipe, etc the IC out of the unit, get a power from pain token for destroying the IC ?

Yes he would, because the FAQ says so:

Q: Do you gain a pain token for each independent character you kill,
even if he is in a unit? (p25)
A: Yes, as long as he still counts as an independent character.

Interesting, that would tend to sway the argument a bit.

 Kommissar Kel wrote:


By the definition I have quoted it is necessarily no longer X.

I don't see this definition you have quoted. Could you repeat it?

It's in his post just before that one.
Just hit the "Filter Thread" under his user name on the left.