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Drider wrote:
Typo, meant rerollable 3+ armour save.

Oh, gotcha.

Edit: for a second, I thought I had missed something significant and awesome about Seraphim.

Nah. I was just trying to find a way to min/max the VTF and the best thing i could come up with was a slight sruviveability boost to celestine and a squad of seraphim to help them get through a combat.

Declare Army of Faith giving re-roll 1s to save until the start of your next turn.
move, shoot, charge, re-reroll 1s to save on your assault phase
re-roll 1s to save on the opponents assault phase. hit and run out.
start of your next turn.


yeah. i did say re-roll to save...pfft if it was that it would be much better but re-roll 1s i suppose is better than nothing.


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i keep looking at C:IA, going away having a think, playing with battlescribe, going away having another think and going back to C:IA.

I think a 25 point priest as an HQ choice has broken double CAD MSU. I mean you can play 2 pirests, 4 bss, 6 dominions in rhinos, 3 exorcists and still be over 100 points off of 1850. ...I think i need more rhinos or even drop the exorcists and play 6 penitent engines.... I think i need more of them too.

Double CAD
2x Priests
4x BSS(5) 2x F, Rhino
6x Dominions(5) 4x Melta, rhino
3x Exorcist
Total 1735

----

Double CAD
2x Priests
4x BSS(5) 2x F, Rhino
6x Dominions(5) 4x Melta, rhino
6x Penitent engines
Total 1840 points

-----

Single CAD
1x priest
6x BSS(5) 2x melta, immo TL-MM
3x Dominions(5) 4x Melta, immo TL-MM
3x Retributors(5) 4x HF, immo TL-MM
Total 1840 points
12 immos in a single cad at 1850! Could even set up 2 or 3 of the BSS as flamer squads and save enough to chuck in a couple of combi weapons

Seraphim actually benefit from the 'end of turn' update. Shred in cc if they use it to shoot.

 pretre wrote:
Seraphim actually benefit from the 'end of turn' update. Shred in cc if they use it to shoot.

Amusingly so do Retributors if they have to fight in CC, rending Heavy Flamers and then Rending CC weapons could be amusing.

Re-rolling 1's would actually have been quite handy for St C

Interesting thought, even though the verbiage of the AoFs has been changed to 'until the end of the turn' the AoF rules remain the unchanged. "A unit cannot attempt to use more than one act of faith in the same phase." so that now begs the question, can a unit use their AoF to gain PE/rending/shred in the shooting phase which will then roll onto the end of the turn and then have a canoness use her AoF in the assault phase meaning that the unit would be under the effects of both AoF?

RAW I'd say yes.
RAI, no obviously not. the spirit of the rules intends that a unit would only be under the effects of one AoF at a time.

Drider wrote:
Interesting thought, even though the verbiage of the AoFs has been changed to 'until the end of the turn' the AoF rules remain the unchanged. "A unit cannot attempt to use more than one act of faith in the same phase." so that now begs the question, can a unit use their AoF to gain PE/rending/shred in the shooting phase which will then roll onto the end of the turn and then have a canoness use her AoF in the assault phase meaning that the unit would be under the effects of both AoF?

RAW I'd say yes.
RAI, no obviously not. the spirit of the rules intends that a unit would only be under the effects of one AoF at a time.

I think thats fine - A single unit can only attempt one each PHASE but there is no reason that can not be affected by more than one each turn as long as they were triggered in different phases.

Drider wrote:
Interesting thought, even though the verbiage of the AoFs has been changed to 'until the end of the turn' the AoF rules remain the unchanged. "A unit cannot attempt to use more than one act of faith in the same phase." so that now begs the question, can a unit use their AoF to gain PE/rending/shred in the shooting phase which will then roll onto the end of the turn and then have a canoness use her AoF in the assault phase meaning that the unit would be under the effects of both AoF?

RAW I'd say yes.
RAI, no obviously not. the spirit of the rules intends that a unit would only be under the effects of one AoF at a time.

This is probably not intended, but who knows... talk to your TO. If so, then sisters are in the same boat as ork... not enough HQ slots.

yes and no,

Hatred from the canoness is for all intents and purposes the same as zealot from priests which are a cheaper and more effective way to get the same effect. Even if your playing ITC style 3 sauce max with 1 duplicate then you're still talking 5 priests, CAD(2)+CAD(2)+Ministorum Delegation(1), if you're playing mono, which was the same 5 priest max as C:AS 6E. if your not playing with a source limit then there no issue, have as many priests as you want.

The real question to ask is the canoness even worth taking anymore given that she's the same base points as a Chaos lord, is a lot worse and ends up being well in excess of 100 points once she's tooled up. Out side of a few jobs, tanking for repentia or HB rets, she's a point sink you don't have to take. might as well take a priest instead and free up enough points to take another unit or splash some wargear around your sisters.

Unless you're taking the special canoness, the Priests or Jacobus are totally better.

 pretre wrote:
Unless you're taking the special canoness, the Priests or Jacobus are totally better.

is the 12" bubble of precision better than what priests and Jacobus provide?

In the right situation yes. Veridyan's worth is only measured by the units she's buffing. If you're playing with a strong back line. A couple of Exos and Veridyan in a HB squad behind an ADL with a turret is going to be a firm anchor. Maybe even ally in a couple psykers to buff prescience and then you'll really be talking.

 pretre wrote:
Seraphim actually benefit from the 'end of turn' update. Shred in cc if they use it to shoot.

Not much of a bonus for an S3 I3 unit though.

 pretre wrote:
Unless you're taking the special canoness, the Priests or Jacobus are totally better.

Jacobus is a waste of space, but the Priests are handy. Only problem with the Priests is they save you 40pts, which isn't going to buy you much, so finding another 20pts and bringing Veridyan seems like the way to go.

Not a complete list, just a proof of concept + points. Obviously troops need to be added to make a legal CAD. Veridyan, in with the rets for ablative wounds, buffing the Rets and Exos with cinical precision while she herself takes up the Quad-gun to merc flyers with some bs5 TL Skyfire. The Psykana Division is to flavour with a nice dash of Prescience, the Primaris Psyker will be harnessing on 3+ until one of the Wyrdvane dies.
Veridyan 85
2x Exorcist 125
Retributors(10), 4x HB, Simulacrum 170
Aegis Defense Line, Quad-gun. 100
Total = 605

Psykana Division
Primaris Psyker 50
Wyrdvane Psykers 60
Total = 110

Grand Total 715 points

For the points going into it creating this little monstrosity you'd probably be better off just taking some Guard artillery or a shooty knight. At least that way you'd get to roll on the stomp table when things inevitably go tits up.

The other and probably more cost effective option for Veridyan would be just to put her in a unit of HF rets for the 'gotcha' moment. nope because PS is rolls to hit and templates don't roll to hit. she's almost completely useless.

 BBAP wrote:
Only problem with the Priests is they save you 40pts, which isn't going to buy you much, so finding another 20pts and bringing Veridyan seems like the way to go.

40 points if your taking a naked canoness, which you wouldn't be unless you were just paying HQ tax for a second CAD even then you'd at least be giving her a Rosarius. The real saving is taking a priest VS taking a Cannones with Rosarius and MoO which is 105 points, plus what ever other wargear you'd normally give her, as warlord.

Drider wrote:
40 points if your taking a naked canoness, which you wouldn't be unless you were just paying HQ tax for a second CAD even then you'd at least be giving her a Rosarius.

Why would you ever put wargear on a Canoness?

Why would you ever not give her at least a rosarius? Different strokes for different folks.

 BBAP wrote:

Drider wrote:
40 points if your taking a naked canoness, which you wouldn't be unless you were just paying HQ tax for a second CAD even then you'd at least be giving her a Rosarius.

Why would you ever put wargear on a Canoness?

Because the mantle of Ophelia and a Rosarius make her awesome.

 Jancoran wrote:
Because the mantle of Ophelia and a Rosarius make her awesome.

I don't see how. She's the most useless model in the army most of the time. Wargear makes her expensive and useless.

 BBAP wrote:

 Jancoran wrote:
Because the mantle of Ophelia and a Rosarius make her awesome.

I don't see how. She's the most useless model in the army most of the time. Wargear makes her expensive and useless.

Then...don't take her? I on the other hand, will.

From these preliminary lists it seems like there's a point of diminishing returns at the second CAD, much like the last codex. Did our elites options change enough to stretch a single CAD? Does the Ministorum Delegation provide an option? What about some Inquisition allies to soak up a few hundred points? I've always found my army to punch harder at 1500 than at 2000, and I'm hoping this codex offers a workaround.

As far as the elites go, the only one worth taking is the command squad with a heavy flamer or heavy bolter load out if all your heavy slots are locked and you can't get Rets. The other new elite choices and Ministorum Delegation suffer from the classic sisters lack of assault vehicle issue. The same goes for Repentia and Celestians are still gak. If you really wanted to take some DCAs doing it through Inq would be the best way to get easy access to a LR.

The White Tide or Tide of Faith option people have been talking about is more than likely a dead end. It would probably be about as effective as Tau fielding Kroot.

I totally agree with you though, mono Sisters shine at 1500 where other factions have to make cuts to bring the fancy toys to the table. Anything above that and we just seem to lose out.

 MacPhail wrote:
From these preliminary lists it seems like there's a point of diminishing returns at the second CAD, much like the last codex

How do you mean "diminishing returns"?

Did our elites options change enough to stretch a single CAD?

Not really. You can take a Command Squad without a Canoness now, but from where I'm sitting it's still all about the BSS, Dominions and Exorcists/ Retributors.

Does the Ministorum Delegation provide an option?

Why, yes it does! You can put it on the shelf, throw it out of the window, drop it in the bin... it's a very versatile unit.

In all seriousness it's still the same old stuff that was in the last book, except now it's a formation instead of a unit and has Shield of Faith. That means you can add Uriah Jacobus to it, stuff it full of Arco-Flagellants with 5++/FNP, then put it back in your case the first time a Riptide goes John Cena all over it.

What about some Inquisition allies to soak up a few hundred points? I've always found my army to punch harder at 1500 than at 2000, and I'm hoping this codex offers a workaround.

The Inquisition stuff is.... meh. Dreadknights will only cost you a single GKSS as tax now, but the GKSS is still not bringing much to the table that you don't already have. If you want a Monster you're still better off bringing an Eldar CAD with a Wraithknight in it, or possibly an Imperial Knight or three (the FW Bam Margera Knight is kinda neat, and also ITC-legal as a Sisters LoW). C:IA tickles my fluff-bunny sensibilities, but I'm not seeing any combos in there that give the Sisters the kind of boost they need.

EDIT: The Shunty-Jumpy GKs (can't remember what they're called - Interceptors?) might work alongside a teleporting Dreadknight. Then again they might get poofed by a single round of Scatbike shooting.


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 Jancoran wrote:

 BBAP wrote:

 Jancoran wrote:
Because the mantle of Ophelia and a Rosarius make her awesome.

I don't see how. She's the most useless model in the army most of the time. Wargear makes her expensive and useless.

Then...don't take her? I on the other hand, will.

... or don't take the wargear. Why would you bother?

I'm not talking about Veridyan by the way. We were talking about the saving you get by taking a Priest over a vanilla Canoness - I said it was only 40pts, which wasn't enough to buy anything and thus the best option was to find 20pts from somewhere and take Veridyan. Respondent started talking about putting wargear on a vanilla Canoness, which i couldn't understand. Wargear might be worth it for Veridyan, though.

 BBAP wrote:


... or don't take the wargear. Why would you bother?

I'm not talking about Veridyan by the way. We were talking about the saving you get by taking a Priest over a vanilla Canoness - I said it was only 40pts, which wasn't enough to buy anything and thus the best option was to find 20pts from somewhere and take Veridyan. Respondent started talking about putting wargear on a vanilla Canoness, which i couldn't understand. Wargear might be worth it for Veridyan, though.

Here is why I take her with Wargear: http://40kunorthodoxy.blogspot.com/2016/08/unlocking-sisters-repentia.html

Beyond that I don't know what to tell you.

Veridyan looks like she will make me very happy as well. I like her.

 BBAP wrote:

You can take a Command Squad without a Canoness now, but from where I'm sitting it's still all about the BSS, Dominions and Exorcists/ Retributors.

C:IA tickles my fluff-bunny sensibilities, but I'm not seeing any combos in there that give the Sisters the kind of boost they need.

That pretty much sums it all up in a nutshell. Spam the same 3-5 units as many times as possible. The only real change is that HQ tax is now 25 points minimum, so we'll maybe be able to bring 1 additional unit or sink slightly more points into allies.

 BBAP wrote:
Wargear might be worth it for Veridyan, though.

That probably wont be happening as she's a named special character. Although I did raise the question on the 40k FB page on the off chance of an exception and got a bit of flak for it because people can't cope with "someone is wrong on the internet!" Still waiting on an official reply.

 Jancoran wrote:
Here is why I take her with Wargear: http://40kunorthodoxy.blogspot.com/2016/08/unlocking-sisters-repentia.html

Let's not rehash that, eh?

 BBAP wrote:

 pretre wrote:
Seraphim actually benefit from the 'end of turn' update. Shred in cc if they use it to shoot.

Not much of a bonus for an S3 I3 unit though.

A bonus is a bonus.

 pretre wrote:
Unless you're taking the special canoness, the Priests or Jacobus are totally better.

Jacobus is a waste of space, but the Priests are handy. Only problem with the Priests is they save you 40pts, which isn't going to buy you much, so finding another 20pts and bringing Veridyan seems like the way to go.

Umm. Fearless bubble and extra faith act are pretty nice. I've run him quite successfully under the older book.


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 Jancoran wrote:

 BBAP wrote:

Drider wrote:
40 points if your taking a naked canoness, which you wouldn't be unless you were just paying HQ tax for a second CAD even then you'd at least be giving her a Rosarius.

Why would you ever put wargear on a Canoness?

Because the mantle of Ophelia and a Rosarius make her awesome.

You misspelled 'suck less'.

 pretre wrote:
A bonus is a bonus.

Not when it's irrelevant. Shred in melee makes Seraphim better at killing the stuff they were going to kill anyway, but doesn't help them against stuff they couldn't kill prior. Like Space Marine Scouts and Neophyte Hybrids.

Umm. Fearless bubble and extra faith act are pretty nice. I've run him quite successfully under the older book.

The extra AoF is fair enough, but the Fearless bubble I can't see much use for. Less failed Pinning checks from dismounted units maybe, but dude has to be standing on the table for that to work, and he's just a drunk in a sackcloth vest with a Rosarius. I don't think I want people shooting at him.

Specifically, for Jacobus, so I'm not just saying 'l2p'.

- Blob sisters with Jacobus to reinforce their invul, give them fearless and a Hymn is pretty hilarious. Add a couple priests and some combat choppers (allied now since Celestine is out) and you have an annoying to kill squad. I used it as an anchor for a lot of lists.
- In a bunker/bastion with Rets for the third turn of rending, a huge fearless bubble and extra wounds for the squad is pretty okay as well. Unfortunately, he isn't BS5.


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 BBAP wrote:

 pretre wrote:
A bonus is a bonus.

Not when it's irrelevant. Shred in melee doesn't make Seraphim any more capable, it just makes them better at killing stuff they were going to kill anyway. Which isn't a long list, given they're S3 I3 models.

Hey, I didn't say they were good. I just said they got a bonus.

Umm. Fearless bubble and extra faith act are pretty nice. I've run him quite successfully under the older book.

The extra AoF is fair enough, but the Fearless bubble I can't see much use for. Less failed Pinning checks from dismounted units maybe, but dude has to be standing on the table for that to work, and he's just a drunk in a sackcloth vest with a Rosarius. I don't think I want people shooting at him.

See the blob list. Also, did the new faq nerf bubble effects from buildings and transports again? Ugh.


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I used SW and Blobs to great effect. You use the sisters as ablative 3+/5++ wounds and area denial with a WL on TWC attached. WL with reroll everything are hilarious from the priests/jacobus. Fearless doesn't hurt either and counter attack/overwatch makes charging them about the same proposition. Of course, the high amount of fire some of the newer lists (tau and Eldar) can put out make this a lot less of a winning strategy.

I get the point of the Jacobus Blob squad but the idea of it has never sat right with my spam as many special and heavy weapons as possible mind set. It just seems.... sub optimal, but at the end of the day it's another tool in our very limited toolbox.

 pretre wrote:

You misspelled 'suck less'.

This made me laugh.

Yeah the blob worked well in a single cad with plenty of mech pressure. I also used the scout book occasionally with it to take over the middle of the board.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
The sisters blob is also great at tying up deathstars. The save reroll is great on ablativemodels.

 pretre wrote:
Hey, I didn't say they were good. I just said they got a bonus.

:-P

Also, did the new faq nerf bubble effects from buildings and transports again? Ugh.

I dunno - I play GSC primarily these days, all my "bubble" dudes are manly men and don't need no stinkin' rides. I just assumed it was that way because it is for the SoS.

I used SW and Blobs to great effect. You use the sisters as ablative 3+/5++ wounds and area denial with a WL on TWC attached. WL with reroll everything are hilarious from the priests/jacobus. Fearless doesn't hurt either and counter attack/overwatch makes charging them about the same proposition. Of course, the high amount of fire some of the newer lists (tau and Eldar) can put out make this a lot less of a winning strategy.

Sounds neat, but the very idea of footslogging Sisters makes me baulk. Power armour is neat and all, but they're still T3, and they don't get rerolls against shooting.

Still a better unit than the Battle Conclave though.

EDIT: The Father Ted Wolf-blob - the problem is you're now facing down lots of armies with heavy firepower on highly mobile platforms, which makes it less ablative than it used to be. Do we reckon there's a fix in the form of Outflanking Wolves and Dominions or something like that? Maybe bring a Dreadknight too. I have a bunch of metal PAGKs and an artist's mannequin, I could paint Matt Ward's face on it, stick a sword in it's hand and call it good.