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 the shrouded lord wrote:
I attempted to ask her to explain her religion and he/she slapped me, twice, in my face, painfully, twice.

I dunno, that seems like a fairly accurate summation of Catholicism to me...

::slaps insaniak::

Noooooobody expects the Dakka moderation!

 insaniak wrote:

 the shrouded lord wrote:
I attempted to ask her to explain her religion and he/she slapped me, twice, in my face, painfully, twice.

I dunno, that seems like a fairly accurate summation of Catholicism to me...

3 years of boarding school summarized in one sentence. It's the modern equivalent of the Agoge.

 hotsauceman1 wrote:
Im cathloc and I do too.
There are some good life lessons though if you get past the stoning of non-virgins

This reminds me of a joke. Perhaps you have noticed that in some eastern countries women get stoned for committing adultery, of course here in the U.S. women get stoned and then commit adultery.
#Look ma' no hands

- Okay, I'll stop.

- J

Conversation (quoted directly)

Me: so with being catholic, what made you a believer in the first place, and can you explain

Some of what you believe?
Him/her: no, I cant tell you because you don't believe.
Me: don't catholics and christains constantly try to convert people into your people. Willingly or not.
Slap slap

Here's the part where I don't believe you.

 the shrouded lord wrote:
Conversation (quoted directly)

Me: so with being catholic, what made you a believer in the first place, and can you explain

Some of what you believe?
Him/her: no, I cant tell you because you don't believe.
Me: don't catholics and christains constantly try to convert people into your people. Willingly or not.
Slap slap

Well then, since you were actively shopping for a bitchslap...

 the shrouded lord wrote:
Conversation (quoted directly)

Me: so with being catholic, what made you a believer in the first place, and can you explain

Some of what you believe?
Him/her: no, I cant tell you because you don't believe.
Me: don't catholics and christains constantly try to convert people into your people. Willingly or not.
Slap slap

Oh. So you're stupid or willingly ignorant to begin with, then?

Don't know that I'd expect much more from some high school troll, but you should at least know what you're talking about if you're going to be purposefully antagonistic. Seems to me you don't actually know gak about Catholicism at all. Go read a book, or hell a Wikipedia article, and you can come sit at the adult table and have a conversation.

 scarletsquig wrote:
Higher power = definite yes.

No.

The odds of the correct sequence of amino acids necessary for life to form at random (as a result of a non-alive universe bashing rocks together) is so small as to be effectively impossible.

Sorry, that is a classic argument from ignorance. That assumes abiogenesis was random, which in fact it was not because it relied on chemistry and natural selection. On top of that, as someone else pointed out, trials were occurring almost everywhere simultaneously in Earth's amino acid-rich primordial oceans. Given the massive amounts of trials that were taking place before life arose and that the simplest precursors to life isn't as complex as life is today, the probably of it happening is far greater than what creationist (or intelligent design promoters, which are one and the same) try to claim.

Here are some numbers for you:
Amount of water on primordial earth: 10²⁴ liters
Amino acid concentration: 10^-6M (which is very dilute)
Under those conditions, the number of self-repeating peptides (the simplest theorized as being only 32 amino acids long) forming in under a year: 10³¹
That seems like a lot still, but it is nowhere near the odds often quoted by ID/creationists, which is usually in the ballpark of 10³⁹⁰.

There's a certain elegance to the laws of physics that implies design, too.

Elegance is not indicative of designed. Not to mention there are plenty of things in the laws of physics that aren't elegant and there are design flaws in every living creature on Earth, including humans.

That's just my take on it.

That's fine, you're still wrong though.

 Some_Call_Me_Tim? wrote:
I think the OP was either trolled by his friend or was trolling US. Either way, it worked.

Quality trolling is so rare these days, I don't consider it 'successful' until the mods have to start handing out yellow or red cards (or that particular forum's equivalent).

If anything, I feel kind of sad for the OP. I'm not a particularly religious man, but as long as one's beliefs and efforts don't lead to harm coming to others, I'm fine with 'live and let live' as a policy.

Of course, go far enough down the rabbit hole...

 the shrouded lord wrote:
Conversation (quoted directly)

Me: so with being catholic, what made you a believer in the first place, and can you explain

Some of what you believe?
Him/her: no, I cant tell you because you don't believe.
Me: don't catholics and christains constantly try to convert people into your people. Willingly or not.
Slap slap

Well... "Trying to convert people, willingly or not" is a pretty insulting attitude, that is not what most christian groups believe or practice. You probably will get slapped for that because it is pointlessly antagonistic and confrontational.

Like if you don't even have a remote clue about what their religion is, there is no point in trying to debate it. At least be well-read so you can debate actual topics with them.

Short timeline:
*God put Man on Earth in paradise, They disobeyed god and sinned.
*God put Man on Earth in a crappy environment, They disobeyed god and sinned.
*God tried to meddle directly in Man's ongoings, They disobeyed god and sinned.
*God tried to punish Man a bunch, They disobeyed god and sinned.
*God tried to talk to ONE man (moses) and try to get him to convince everyone to be good and follow God's commands and they will have a good life, They disobeyed god and sinned.
*God tried to give his select group of people power, wealth, nations, everything they asked for, if only they did EXACTLY what he said. They disobeyed god and sinned.
*God tried to kinda butt out and told the people and said 'listen to this King guy on earth, he ain't so bad... You can have a good life and worship freely under him.' They disobeyed god and sinned.
*God Sent his only son to earth to help man out directly. They killed the crap out of him basically because he was too nice and shaking up the establishment.
*Jesus basically throws off the 'requirements' for getting into heaven, goes into hell, lets everyone out and says 'Man is gonna do what they do, they can't help themselves.'

Now if you believe in Jesus and follow his teachings, you can have a good life on earth and a happy afterlife.

And the difference between Judaism, Christianity and Islam is basically which 'guy' was the last true word of god. Jews believe Moses was the last 'true' word of God and Jesus was a really nice guy, but not the son of god. Christians believe Moses was good, and Jesus was the son of god. Muslims believe Moses and Jesus were both Divine prophets, but Muhammad was the most recent 'True word of god' around 600AD. All 3 are based around the same God, but there are some differences in bloodlines and paths through the old testaments. Basically Ishmael, Abraham's first Son (the Arab Peoples) and Issac, the first son of his actual wife (Israelites)

Regardless if you believe in the religions, a lot of this is basic middle-east history and a basic foundation of how all this went down is required for understanding what is going on there right now.

 scarletsquig wrote:
There's a certain elegance to the laws of physics that implies design, too.

It appears that way because of the intentionnal stance of the human mind. It's a very natural and insanely useful fallacy (without it, the entirety of human knowledge would have been impossible), but it's a fallacy nonetheless. Designed objects have an ''about-ness''. The chair is ''about sitting''. The table is ''about laying objects on it's surface''. A great deal of our understanding of things comes from assigning properties to objects that they do not have based on those that they do have. And in the case of the human mind, what is useful, what is healthy, what is complex is considered to have an aesthetical value.

The elements on the periodic table aren't ''about'' anything. The complexity of the body of physical laws isn't evidence that it was designed, but simply a result of the insane amount of entities whose interactions this body of law try to describe. The elegance you refer to is interest-based : "because this universe has laws that led to my existence, I find it cool, because my existence is pretty damn cool to me'' basically. To someone who could entertain it, a universe that would end up being nothing but a huge ball of iron could just as well be elegant.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

nkelsch wrote:

*Jesus basically throws off the 'requirements' for getting into heaven, goes into hell, lets everyone out and says 'Man is gonna do what they do, they can't help themselves.'

If I'm not mistaken, that's only those that could not be allowed in Heaven because they were born before the New Testament. Also, I'm not sure if it's Catholic dogma or just something Dante wrote up when he was drunk.

 Kovnik Obama wrote:
Also, I'm not sure if it's Catholic dogma or just something Dante wrote up when he was drunk.

Dakkanaut, educate thyself:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harrowing_of_Hell

nkelsch wrote:

 the shrouded lord wrote:
Conversation (quoted directly)

Me: so with being catholic, what made you a believer in the first place, and can you explain

Some of what you believe?
Him/her: no, I cant tell you because you don't believe.
Me: don't catholics and christains constantly try to convert people into your people. Willingly or not.
Slap slap

Well... "Trying to convert people, willingly or not" is a pretty insulting attitude, that is not what most christian groups believe or practice. You probably will get slapped for that because it is pointlessly antagonistic and confrontational.

Like if you don't even have a remote clue about what their religion is, there is no point in trying to debate it. At least be well-read so you can debate actual topics with them.

Short timeline:
*God put Man on Earth in paradise, They disobeyed god and sinned.
*God put Man on Earth in a crappy environment, They disobeyed god and sinned.
*God tried to meddle directly in Man's ongoings, They disobeyed god and sinned.
*God tried to punish Man a bunch, They disobeyed god and sinned.
*God tried to talk to ONE man (moses) and try to get him to convince everyone to be good and follow God's commands and they will have a good life, They disobeyed god and sinned.
*God tried to give his select group of people power, wealth, nations, everything they asked for, if only they did EXACTLY what he said. They disobeyed god and sinned.
*God tried to kinda butt out and told the people and said 'listen to this King guy on earth, he ain't so bad... You can have a good life and worship freely under him.' They disobeyed god and sinned.
*God Sent his only son to earth to help man out directly. They killed the crap out of him basically because he was too nice and shaking up the establishment.
*Jesus basically throws off the 'requirements' for getting into heaven, goes into hell, lets everyone out and says 'Man is gonna do what they do, they can't help themselves.'

Now if you believe in Jesus and follow his teachings, you can have a good life on earth and a happy afterlife.

And the difference between Judaism, Christianity and Islam is basically which 'guy' was the last true word of god. Jews believe Moses was the last 'true' word of God and Jesus was a really nice guy, but not the son of god. Christians believe Moses was good, and Jesus was the son of god. Muslims believe Moses and Jesus were both Divine prophets, but Muhammad was the most recent 'True word of god' around 600AD. All 3 are based around the same God, but there are some differences in bloodlines and paths through the old testaments. Basically Ishmael, Abraham's first Son (the Arab Peoples) and Issac, the first son of his actual wife (Israelites)

Regardless if you believe in the religions, a lot of this is basic middle-east history and a basic foundation of how all this went down is required for understanding what is going on there right now.

Short timeline:
*God put Man on Earth in paradise, They disobeyed god and sinned.
*God put Man on Earth in a crappy environment, They disobeyed god and sinned.
*God tried to meddle directly in Man's ongoings, They disobeyed god and sinned.
*God tried to punish Man a bunch, They disobeyed god and sinned.
*God tried to talk to ONE man (moses) and try to get him to convince everyone to be good and follow God's commands and they will have a good life, They disobeyed god and sinned.
*God tried to give his select group of people power, wealth, nations, everything they asked for, if only they did EXACTLY what he said. They disobeyed god and sinned.
*God tried to kinda butt out and told the people and said 'listen to this King guy on earth, he ain't so bad... You can have a good life and worship freely under him.' They disobeyed god and sinned.
i knew all of this, didnt know the last thing (about jesus and hell. , thanks for the knowledge

Clearly you didn't.

As a religious person, I should try and avoid such topics as this, but the title didn't quite imply religion when I read it... oh well.

I believe in Dinosaurs... don't believe the Earth is 'young' and also believe in evolution... as it's continually proven to be true, most commonly with diseases.

The Bible.. well, don't want to jump down that vipers nest, but I can see where cyncydooley may be coming from, some of the stuff posted is offensive.. but this is 'Off Topic' forum, you can't fault people for opinions.

As for the slapping, yes, saying that we 'force our religion onto you' probably wouldn't make me too happy either. I wouldn't slap you, but I probably wouldn't play against you either... just a side note.

 Frazzled wrote:
Here's the part where I don't believe you.

Yeah. People don't go around slapping other people for no reason, unless the other person was being a complete donkeycave. So either the OP is making stuff up or he's not being truthful about what he said or possibly the lady was just crazy.

~Tim?

 Some_Call_Me_Tim? wrote:

 Frazzled wrote:
Here's the part where I don't believe you.

Yeah. People don't go around slapping other people for no reason, unless the other person was being a complete donkeycave. So either the OP is making stuff up or he's not being truthful about what he said or possibly the lady was just crazy.

~Tim?

I can 100% believe the OP was/is an donkey-cave. And ignorant one at that.

As much as I want to smack down the ignorant teenage troll, I think we may just want to lock the thread. He's already gotten enough reaction to his trolling. And in the even that he isn't trolling and he's actually that uneducated and misinformed, well then he's not worth the time in the first place.

 Forar wrote:

 scarletsquig wrote:
Higher power = definite yes.

The odds of the correct sequence of amino acids necessary for life to form at random (as a result of a non-alive universe bashing rocks together) is so small as to be effectively impossible.

A million monkeys on a million typewriters on hundreds of thousands of millions of stars for billions of years...

Technically, the odds of the amino acid chains forming and all subsequent events happened to be 100%, as we currently exist.

 Some_Call_Me_Tim? wrote:

 Frazzled wrote:
Here's the part where I don't believe you.

Yeah. People don't go around slapping other people for no reason, unless the other person was being a complete donkeycave. So either the OP is making stuff up or he's not being truthful about what he said or possibly the lady was just crazy.

~Tim?

I would say being extremely confrontational and rude about something that a person clearly has a deep belief for is not "No reason".

It's a shame that she didn't slap some sense into the OP at the same time. Though that looks to be a futile endeavor.

man... I was so disappointed... I thought this thread was going to be about them cloning dinosaurs or something to that effect.

come on biologists get on it!

 Manchu wrote:

 Kovnik Obama wrote:
Also, I'm not sure if it's Catholic dogma or just something Dante wrote up when he was drunk.

Dakkanaut, educate thyself:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harrowing_of_Hell

Basically you had a majority of the Euro/Middle east Religions basically believing everyone went to 'Hades' or basically a form of 'Hell' which had a place for 'good people' but it was still basically hell. Gods for the most part before that lived 'above' mortals in both life and death. If you were going to have people join your religion to go to an awesome afterlife hanging with God, it would be a hard sell to know your ancestors are all basically stuck in 'Old Hell' while you enjoy eternal life in a new paradise.

So either you believe Jesus died and then marched into 'Old Hell', wrecked up the joint and the dead basically marched out of holes in the ground and flew nekkid and reborn to Heaven, Or it was a neat story to tell people to get them to adopt a new 'religion' because 'Be nice = Eternal Life with God' was better than 'All your gods hate you, and will punish you in stupid ways if you do things wrong and regardless you get sent to Hades'

That is not all that unheard of hear in the states, never heard it among Catholics nor was it ever taught when I was in Catechism.

There was a girl in my English class who believed dinosaur bones were placed on earth by the devil to confuse humans and drive them further away from God.

Yup.

 scarletsquig wrote:

Higher power = definite yes.

The odds of the correct sequence of amino acids necessary for life to form at random (as a result of a non-alive universe bashing rocks together) is so small as to be effectively impossible.

Export Problem; this explains how life originated on earth. Does not explain how "creator" originated, so leaves the "how did it all start?" question unanswered.

Besides, such molecules can assemble given nothing but the right (actually quite simple) conditions and sufficient energy. While admittedly none of our experiments have crossed the "God threshold" and created full life, we have reached the point where random chance plus time could quite honestly be a perfectly reasonable explanation.

nkelsch wrote:
So either you believe Jesus died and then marched into 'Old Hell', wrecked up the joint and the dead basically marched out of holes in the ground and flew nekkid and reborn to Heaven, Or it was a neat story to tell people to get them to adopt a new 'religion' because 'Be nice = Eternal Life with God' was better than 'All your gods hate you, and will punish you in stupid ways if you do things wrong and regardless you get sent to Hades'

I think the real point of the Harrowing is that Jesus really died and therefore really overcame death, that is he is totally sovereign. Hell or, as you say, Hades in this account is more about the older, more widespread ideas of the afterlife than the developing Christian sense of Hell as final death (i.e., the lack of eternal life). To be honest, the Harrowing is the subject of ongoing theological debate. See here for more.

 Crazy_Carnifex wrote:
so leaves the "how did it all start?" question unanswered

And Catholics are okay with that because what we call faith is not a collection of fact claims or even opinions but rather an orientation toward human experience.

Given what you've now told us of your conversation, I don't consider your friend as nuts (for hitting you, that is). You kinda walked into it-you asked an insulting question and she hit you for your insulting attitude, rather than "asking about religion". I change my view. She's still odd for not believing in dinosaurs when there is actual physical proof AND written descriptions in the Bible, but she's not a complete psycho for hitting you. That's your own fault, based on what you now told us.

 timetowaste85 wrote:
Given what you've now told us of your conversation, I don't consider your friend as nuts (for hitting you, that is). You kinda walked into it-you asked an insulting question and she hit you for your insulting attitude, rather than "asking about religion". I change my view. She's still odd for not believing in dinosaurs when there is actual physical proof AND written descriptions in the Bible, but she's not a complete psycho for hitting you. That's your own fault, based on what you now told us.

i can accept that. i will admitt that i can be an ass hole sometimes. so, this thread will now go to the original perpose, how commen is the belief that dinosaurs did not exist in catholic society. also, i have since apologized to this person multiple times (and been kicked in the mouth( not because of the beforementioned conversation, but because of a few... rash questions about dinosaurs)) by her/him and we are now friends again.

 the shrouded lord wrote:
how commen is the belief that dinosaurs did not exist in catholic society

Extremely uncommon.

 Manchu wrote:

 Kovnik Obama wrote:
Also, I'm not sure if it's Catholic dogma or just something Dante wrote up when he was drunk.

Dakkanaut, educate thyself:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harrowing_of_Hell

Ah, thanks!


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 the shrouded lord wrote:
how commen is the belief that dinosaurs did not exist in catholic society.

I would think it very rare for Catholics to even entertain the question. The idea that an hermeneutic is necessary to comprehend the true meaning of the religious texts is pretty central to Catholic thought, I mean, you'll rarely see a Catholic trying to defend the idea that yes, the Earth was created in seven days. My religion courses in Primary, in a Catholic private school, started with explaining the origin of that particular myth. That's part of why it's pretty easy to not get our head stuck on the darker parts of the books.

Edited by Manchu