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Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:Well, Khorne don't feed on hatred too ?

That's why I've been saying they would essentially "pray it away". You could say they are too busy with looking up to the Emperor, perfecting their martial training, caring for one another, and doing penance for their sins (real or imagined) for such emotion to dominate their minds for prolonged duration.

I imagine their zeal to work like an on/off switch due to the heavy focus on meditation and the devotion to their holy work.

I'm not saying it could never happen - that would be hypocritical of my earlier statement in that I don't believe in such absolutes. What I am saying is that I just don't see the chance being as big as with Slaanesh .. which is already very, very small.

My own, personal "risk rating" in regards to the Sisters is basically:
Slaanesh -> Khorne/Tzeentch -> Nurgle

With the span between Khorne and Tzeentch smaller than between Tzeentch to Nurgle, as the latter is so far away from what they stand for, yet I can think of a few risks involving Khorne or Tzeentch. The latter, for example, could perhaps try some uberconvoluted plan to shatter a Canoness'es resolve - ironically, the leaders of the Sisterhood are less innocent than the Sisters they command, simply because due to the very position they hold they have been exposed to the dirty truth behind the white veil that is Imperial propaganda. Their long service means their heart is steeled, but I could still see a slim possibility of becoming disillusioned when some complicated scheme results in several supposedly allied Imperial institutions betraying her Order and she'd have to decide between following orders or saving her Sisters. And that'd be the start of a very dangerous road...
Just off the top of my head, mind you.

Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:Remember how Mortarion was resistant to it's natal world diseases. If even that guy can fall sick because of Nurgle, Sisters can too.

The difference is that the plague which raced through the Death Guard's fleet was of a supernatural origin, not a natural one. And to protect against this, you need faith, which you cannot instill just with a bunch of vat-bred organs.

From the Index Astartes article of White Dwarf #265:

"Transcripts of the Council of Charon, convened after the Heresy to ascribe responsibility, suggest that, unlike some of the other Primarchs, Horus did not need to resort to ritual possession to win the Death Guard to his side. Horus promised that under his rule the old order would fall, and a new age would dawn, a just age with right ensured by the mighty."

And later on:

"Whether he perceived, in those terrible hours, the loss of what he had once stood for, and the damnation he had wrought upon himself and his Legion, only Mortarion will ever know. Unable to endure the suffering any longer, Mortarion offered into the Immaterium himself, his Legion and his very soul in exchange for deliverance. A presence in the Immaterium answered, as though it had been waiting all along. In the depths of the warp, the Great God Nurgle, Lord of Decay and Father of Disease, called that debt and accepted Mortarion and the Death Guard Legion as his own."

So, in short, Mortarion suffered from the usual instability that had befallen most of the non-indoctrinated Primarchs, and later on he preferred betraying everyone in a moment where a Sister, as Psienesis said, would have simply killed herself - or would be executed by others.

As I said earlier, the indoctrination has its advantages - the Primarchs did not enjoy it, and due to their role acted as conduit for the corruption of their entire Legion.

And really, this sort of psychological resistance is the Sisters' chief hallmark, just like the Marines have a bonus in physical resistance from their implants. From GW's website:

"As the Chamber Militant of the galaxy-spanning Ecclesiarchy, the Sisters of Battle are fierce warriors that are equals to their brother Space Marines. What the Sisters lack in genetic enhancement they make up for in faith and devotion. No one is more devoted to the cause and cult of the Emperor than they."

Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:Well, it's precisely because they are surrounded by it that they can become obsessed with it !

That ... no, this I cannot quite follow. When they are surrounded by such intricate decoration 24/7, I'd think it becomes normal and vanishes into the background. I'm sure there are moments where they would still focus on some beautiful pieces in the convent in quiet contemplation, but I can't see how they could become obsessed with it when they use it merely as a conduit to focus their thoughts, which revolve around much more important things.

Mostly the Emperor.

Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:The bobcut is AFAIK not official canon, just what the models have. Celestine don't have it.

"Official canon"?

... anyways, I would argue that:
1- Celestine has a bobcut, too, her hairs are merely subject to a strong wind
2- Celestine isn't a Battle Sister anymore, so regulations no longer apply
3- Celestine is only a model as well .. and only one, compared to the many SoB minis
4- There's also the artworks

Of course one could still debate it - I'm just surprised. I thought this was pretty much an accepted thing.

Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:Let me think of any GW-canon slaaneshi marine who is explicitly linked to sex in any way. Oh, can't think of one.

I'd say the Emperor's Children would qualify, given the descriptions of their conduct on Terra.
Now, I don't believe that GW ever directly used the word "rape" (think of the kids!), but to deny this is, I think, on the same level as not noticing that the Codex fluff about the Scholas during the Age of Apostasy clearly implied child prostitution, or what the "exotic skills" are that the Brides of the Emperor had to employ to entertain Vandire.

"Denouncing the teachings of their former idol, they turned wholeheartedly to Slaanesh, giving the Prince of Chaos the same measure of devotion they had once shown to the Emperor. Slaanesh, in turn, bestowed visions of paradise on the Emperor's Children, a galaxy of ultimate freedom, where no evil was possible because every experience was a source of pleasure. The Legion's Chaplains exhorted their brothers to pursue this dream, to savour every sensation. The perfection of the Emperor's Children became perfect hedonism, limitless in its scope, unstoppable in its fury. [...]

With the concentration of Chaos around Terra, the Apothecaries and Sorcerers of the Emperor's Children drew on the power of Slaanesh to enhance their pleasures, wantonly desecrating not only their minds and bodies, but now their immortal souls as well. Daemons were summoned and set loose among prisoners, feasting on their flesh as they died, while the Space Marines themselves sought even greater excesses of carnage and carnality.[...]

While other Legions still maintain some semblance of the command structure they once possessed, the Emperor's Children who survived the inter-Legion wars now exist as cult-like bodies, their leaders ruling by force of will alone. The only focus of admiration for devotees of Slaanesh is senseless indulgence in physical pleasure, and so the leaders of warbands are the most violent, sadistic and debauched creatures imaginable."
- WD #255

If you really cannot read between the lines here ...

Then again, as with many things in 40k, these are matters of interpretation. If you don't want to adopt my beliefs here, you could easily disregard them by thinking that perhaps sex is the one sensation that the EC are somehow unable to taste. I've been a fan of the "genderless Marines" theory, anyways, and nobody says that Slaanesh made them grow their sets back.

C'Tan don't "corrupt" things in the sense that Chaos does.

C'Tan, in fact, are completely physical-reality bound. They do not function in, exist in, or interact with the Immaterium in any way, or even really understand it... this is suspected to be the reason why they had such a hate-on for the Old Ones, though we're not given any concrete details (as the war between them and the Old Ones, prior to their meeting the Necrontyr, was a tale related by the Deceiver, it may have been fabricated).

So this escalated quickly....

Anyway I've decided upon a way to do this, rather than have a squad of fallen Soritas I'm going to convert up a Cannoness into a Fallen Female Inquisitor, skirting the whole fallen sisters thing. She'll be leading my Slaneesh or Khorne forces since I have a Nurgle and Tzeetnch Lord already, thinking of giving her the Burning Brand, sort of as a nod to the Sisters (they play with fire)

2x210 wrote:
So this escalated quickly....

Anyway I've decided upon a way to do this, rather than have a squad of fallen Soritas I'm going to convert up a Cannoness into a Fallen Female Inquisitor, skirting the whole fallen sisters thing. She'll be leading my Slaneesh or Khorne forces since I have a Nurgle and Tzeetnch Lord already, thinking of giving her the Burning Brand, sort of as a nod to the Sisters (they play with fire)

Sounds cool to me. If people have an issue with Chaos Sisters, just call them female cultists. There are more to cultists than just meat shields - the Blood Pact are a professional body of soldiers. I can't think of any reason why there would not be a sisterhood of warriors dedicated to one of the chaos powers, or a particular daemon even, equipped and trained well, who just happen to have a passing resemblance to SoB

 Psienesis wrote:
Go back to the Realms of Chaos books, where it is stated that the Slaaneshiite's lusts lead their forces into committing acts of "lewd depravity" as they form up for battle, which were apparently so perverse, so filled with "prancing fopperies" as to actually offend the Blood God and cause hatred between Khornate units and Slaaneshi units...

So that's your explicit mention of sex ? Seems not so much more explicit than the current one. Also, I mentioned Doom Rider, and I don't think this character is very recent or anything.

 Psienesis wrote:
Sex definitely figures quite heavily into Slaaneshi worship services

Yet no slaaneshi marine character that I ever heard of never seemed to do anything explicitly sex-related…
Not saying it's logical or anything, but it's the way slaaneshi marine characters are treated by GW. So if you did otherwise with Sisters, it would stand out.

 Lynata wrote:
That's why I've been saying they would essentially "pray it away". You could say they are too busy with looking up to the Emperor, perfecting their martial training, caring for one another, and doing penance for their sins (real or imagined) for such emotion to dominate their minds for prolonged duration.

In normal circumstance, for the average sister, hey, no doubt. But in normal circumstance, the average sister won't fall to Slaanesh either. It takes a very special circumstance to make one specific sister fall to chaos. And I'm pretty sure having your whole convent slaughtered without being able to prevent it, and being tormented by voices or vision afterward, can make stopping your hate quite harder .
It would take similarly extreme circumstance for the Sister not becoming a repentia after enjoying the first glance of any kind of forbidden pleasure.

 Lynata wrote:
4- There's also the artworks

I do have an artwork with a seraphim without bobcut. The black one. I'm pretty sure it is from GW.
http://images1.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20110824024324/warhammer40k/images/8/8c/Argent_Shroud_Sisters_in_Combat.jpg
I'm pretty familiar with this artwork, because my own Sisters are black, and some people said it wasn't going with the fluff…

 Lynata wrote:
Now, I don't believe that GW ever directly used the word "rape" (think of the kids!)

Or sex, or anything directly related to sex. There IS a lot of subtext to be found, but nothing explicit. In keeping in tone with the rest of the fluff, just do the same with the Slaaneshi sisters.

Sisters are immune to Chaos because they soak their armor in the blood of Gray Knights.

They don't have explicit "The Emperor's Child thrust his purple-headed boltgun, the one he fondly referred to as 'The Big E', into the Eldar Farseer's quivering mound of love-pudding" type stuff because it's a wargame, not a creepy-trashy romance novel. Is that what you're looking for to prove that Slaanesh is, amongst other things, a god(dess) of way-kinky sex? You're flat-out not going to find that in almost any game that is not, explicitly, an 18+ game and titled something like "FATAL" or "The Book of Erotic Adventures" or "Exalted, First Edition".

At best (worst), it's been written for a PG-13 audience, and the nudity in its older art was reserved for non-sexual situations (being then defined as "artistic"... technically still defined as such, but that does not stop people from freaking out) but has fallen out of favor as the social mores have changed.

Though, doesn't one of the EC novels have them nailing a dude's dick to a board, and he gets off on it?

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

 Lynata wrote:
Now, I don't believe that GW ever directly used the word "rape" (think of the kids!)

Or sex, or anything directly related to sex. There IS a lot of subtext to be found, but nothing explicit. In keeping in tone with the rest of the fluff, just do the same with the Slaaneshi sisters.

Well, there is the old background of Fimir propagation
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fimir

A couple of quotes from ROC re the Emperors Children re their pleasures..........:

"...and yet in Slaanesh's boundless and pleasing mercy, I have only asked for your daughters. Surely you would not deny me my small enjoyments?"

"Whilst thier allies fought and died, the Emperor's Children salughtered more than a million people and rendered them down to create endless varieties of drugs and stimulants.. Countless thousands more died to give the Legionaires more direct, if cruder entertainment."

However, If you want lots of sex and violence with a great plot and dialogue - watch the Sparticus series - indeed the final series pretty graphically shows you what happens to the inhabitants of a sacked town........mutiple that by a million times and thats the Emperors Children rampaging on Earth - really unpleasent stuff.

 Psienesis wrote:
You're flat-out not going to find that in almost any game that is not, explicitly, an 18+ game and titled something like "FATAL" or "The Book of Erotic Adventures" or "Exalted, First Edition".
...

Though, doesn't one of the EC novels have them nailing a dude's dick to a board, and he gets off on it?

Ugh, read FATAL once, not as bad as everyone said but that might have just been my brain slowly melting and denying the reality of the situation.

Also I am almost certain that the EC novels have all kinds of messed up stuff in them, that particular situation could very well have been there.

 Psienesis wrote:
They don't have explicit "The Emperor's Child thrust his purple-headed boltgun, the one he fondly referred to as 'The Big E', into the Eldar Farseer's quivering mound of love-pudding" type stuff because it's a wargame, not a creepy-trashy romance novel.

They don't even have words like “rape” or “sex”, which are AFAIK also found outside of creepy-trashy romance novels !


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 dementedwombat wrote:
Ugh, read FATAL once, not as bad as everyone said

I found it pretty bad, sometime hilariously. Like that part :

Although hill trolls crave the cortex and the surrounding cerebrospinal fluid, they savor the taste of the limbic system, most specifically the amygdala, basal ganglia, and hippocampus. Oddly, they always reject the thalamus, but devour the hypothalamus.

Really odd indeed, don't they know the wathevercampus is the best part ?
Also note I just stopped my quotation before the worse detail.

"The Emperor's Child thrust his purple-headed boltgun, the one he fondly referred to as 'The Big E', into the Eldar Farseer's quivering mound of love-pudding"

Surely someone is going to use that as a Sig

Not me. Ever.

 Mr Morden wrote:

"The Emperor's Child thrust his purple-headed boltgun, the one he fondly referred to as 'The Big E', into the Eldar Farseer's quivering mound of love-pudding"

Surely someone is going to use that as a Sig

They are welcome to it! I had considered making the EC's reference "The Big D" but that did not pun enough... too direct.

 Sarouan wrote:
To be honest, only the Grey Knights are truly immune to Chaos corruption. Because they were made that way.

Sisters of Battle, though most having a strong will and blind faith, are still humans at heart. Humans can be corrupted by the Chaos Gods.

So, yeah, it's not that common, but a sister's mind can still have doubts or desires, and succumbs to chaotic temptations.

Besides, in codex: Grey Knights, the story about the Blood Tide says that only a part of the sisters managed to stay pure. It implies not all of them were able to do so.

Not really the same about Chaos Grey Knights, to be fair. About Chaos Tau...well...the Greater Good mainly comes from the Ethereal's influence. If they're not around anymore (or worse, one being corrupted), it's not so stupid sounding than it is. Remember Farsight?

Keep an open mind, that's from where Chaos will come in.

Actually GK aren't 100% safe. Read the changeling short story.

Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:In normal circumstance, for the average sister, hey, no doubt. But in normal circumstance, the average sister won't fall to Slaanesh either. It takes a very special circumstance to make one specific sister fall to chaos. And I'm pretty sure having your whole convent slaughtered without being able to prevent it, and being tormented by voices or vision afterward, can make stopping your hate quite harder .
It would take similarly extreme circumstance for the Sister not becoming a repentia after enjoying the first glance of any kind of forbidden pleasure.

All I'm saying the latter can happen more easily than the former - in your example, because Sisters tend to die together.

And don't get hung up on that "more easily" now. I have said before that I am advocating the possibility of one-off exceptions, not something routine.

Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:I do have an artwork with a seraphim without bobcut. The black one. I'm pretty sure it is from GW.
I'm pretty familiar with this artwork, because my own Sisters are black, and some people said it wasn't going with the fluff…

Then those people should question their common sense.
And yes, as far as I know that is a GW artwork - it also shows up in the Dark Millennium card game (where Ephrael is from), but I believe its first appearance is in the 3E Codex Witch Hunters.

Still: Here is a collection of every single piece of Codex art from both the 2E and the 3E book. Don't tell me you do not see a pattern!


There'll always be some level of artistic licence involved in such pictures (armour and weapons tend to differ in details as well), but I do believe there is a certain level of consistency when comparing all of them.

That being said, it'd be easy to make the black buzzhead Seraphim fit in - she could have shaved her head as a sign of penance, or even is a former Repentia who was allowed to return to the fold.
Shaving heads is done in the Sororitas. It's part of the Vow of Repentance, and I think it could be used as an independent penance for smaller sins, too. Just a thought, however. I like to look for ways to make things "fit".

Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:Or sex, or anything directly related to sex. There IS a lot of subtext to be found, but nothing explicit.

Carnality is commonly associated with sex.
But more importantly, when the Emperor's Children strive to savour every sensation, what makes you think sex is the one exception, and why? Because sex is "icky"?
I'm sorry, but I just don't think that is a realistic perspective in regards to the EC's activities, and to me it appears weirdly out of place in a setting that thrives on brutality, pain and base motives.
I am not advocating focusing on Slaanesh = sex; I believe I've said as much multiple times. But to just dismiss and disregard it entirely, as if it wasn't one of the best "gateway drugs" imaginable? That just sounds strange to me. As if we had US censors breathing down our necks (no offense to our American readers).

StarTrotter wrote:Actually GK aren't 100% safe.

If they would be, they wouldn't need blood paraphernalia.

I admit, at first I was confused as I read that, but then I considered that this is merely an extension of the GK's earlier fluff, rather than an outright contradiction.
"Yes, they are incorruptible ..... because they have special rituals and forbidden magicks that can enable them to shield themselves."

2x210 wrote:
I'm thinking of modeling some Sisters into Chaos Chosen for a squad in my army, but I'm not sure if this would be fluffy or not any examples of sisters serving with chaos forces?

So not fluffy... purge the heretic!

Lynata wrote:
What would they have done if there would've been no Sisters on that world to sacrifice? It would mean not having access to this component you are speaking of, and thus ... corruption?

Oh, but they knew most certainly. Because of Matt Ward.

That's an old joke, sorry. In fact, Grey Knights have badass diviners able to know in advance where and when they can send their cruisers so that they can stop in time the demonic tide. So, it is most certainly "thanks to" them that they came at the right time...and with the "right knowledge" about what they had to do.

That doesn't make Matt Ward a good writer, anyway. He's still crap when it is about writing a consistent background.

Absolutely. Just saying that Tau, at least in GW's version of 40k, are somewhat protected by essentially "being missed" by the daemonic forces.
Can't whisper into their dreams (provided they do dream) if you can't locate their "soul-light".

Of course, it would be difficult for demons to take over something the Tau don't seem to have. Unfortunately, being from the Warp have other means...after all, Tau are known for welcoming a lot of "allied races" in their Empire. What would happen if one of them was too close to the Immaterium, and thus able to create a door for demons to come in the material plane? When a demon has a host, it can do many other things to corrupt those puny mortals...

The fluff of 40k isn't always so absolute, after all. It has room for creativity from the very beginning, and that's why it's so popular. Maybe that will change with the years (like Kirby...erm I mean GW deciding no one would be able to play other marines than Ultrasmurfs), but for now we still are able to give our own names for such and such character. It's not a hazard if all the captains in a Marine Chapter aren't named, even though they are in quite a few numbers enough so that it would have been possible.

That's because unlike the Space Marines, whose recruits have a perfectly normal life until being recruited at the age of ~10, and whose Chapters are afflicted by local culture, and whose genetic purity is at best questionable in a worryingly high number of Chapters, the Sisters of Battle are raised in the Schola Progenium from infancy, deeply indoctrinated by the Ecclesiarchy's Drill-Abbots...

I'm stopping you right there. Schola Progenium isn't just for sisters. It's for all the children who have lost their parents while they were in service (mostly from Imperial Guard and Navy, but the Administratum as well). Commissars come as well from there; it's just something like an "Elite Private School".

Beside, orphans are not made when they were all in infancy. Some lose their parents at an older age than others. That means they still have their roots (even if they don't always remember them). They don't lose them instantly just because they join the Schola Progenium.

By the way, corruption can still be seeded here. It doesn't have to come from the students, just some teachers...In the "Dark Heresy" RPG, there was something called "Dark Schola Progenium", an establishment that was in the hands of corrupted guys so that they could send their "tainted seeds" in the very core of the Imperial "high standing society". When the Inquisition managed to stop them, damage was already done and was quite horrendous. What happened once can always be renewed in the future...

In short, whereas the Space Marines remember their roots, where they have pride and arrogance, where they focus entirely on war and heritage, what shields the Sororitas is their fanatical religious conviction that there is a higher power protecting them, and that they serve a greater, a divine purpose, by doing a god's work rather than just some great man's.
In the case of the Sisters of Battle, ignorance really is a blessing.
I usually refrain from pointing to Black Library, but I found this excerpt from Ben Counter's short story "Daemonblood" to be a perfect illustration of where I think the difference lies, and how it affects them

Ignorance is a blessing for all people in the Imperium. That doesn't mean they will never be curious...even Sisters of Battle. In Faith and Fire (yeah, I know, it's not really the best book...but it's still one of the few talking about Adepta Sororitas), the characters ask themselves some disturbing questions (if they were just blindly following orders, they would have been killed and the story would end sooner by the way). It was here for their sake, but it could have been their doom in another situation...

And yeah, it can be dangerous to take informations from Black Library. Especially Ben Counters and his monolithic characters (orks are dumb, sisters are fanatic, demons are bad, marines are awesome... .

In a way, due to their cloistered life (even more cloistered than the already monastic warrior monks of the Adeptus Astartes, by way of their childhoods), they are even more brainwashed - and perhaps this is why they have "the blood of innocents", as the GK Codex puts it.

Honestly, when you see the "daily life" of a Space Marine (who is quite close to a monastery life), it's not so different from a sister's one. The two in fact share a lot in common - just that these women are still humans while the others are genetically modified monsters.

Unless Matt Ward writes the next codex for Adepta Sororitas and change their background into Magical Angel Girls coming right from the Emperor's Hand.

You have some Inquisitors that are recruited out of the Black Ships, but that is neither all of them, nor does this mean they didn't have a normal childhood (until they were found out anyways).

Then you have others that grew up in the Schola Progenium - which happens to be the same place that potential novices for the Adepta Sororitas grow up in, just that Sisters have to add a 5-year novitiate in the "tender" care of the Orders Famulous on top of that, and that unlike with Inquisitors, we were told that a progena would have to grow up in the Schola "from birth" to be eligible for the Sisterhood.

Most Inquisitors, though, seem to be made out of the ranks of Acolytes that senior Inquisitors recruit into their cadre, and those can come from any vocation - as long as they have useful talents and display suitable loyalty to the cause. The 3E Witch Hunter Codex had some fluff about that.

But the tests to become an Inquisitor are even harsher and more careful, because they only take the best of the best with an iron will. Only the ones able to do what it takes to protect the Emperor's masterwork are chosen, and even those will have to prove their worth many times before having the right to call themselves true Inquisitors (most of them die before that happens, anyway).

I think you are overestimating sisters. Most of them are troops...elite ones, sure, but it's not like all of them are the stuff Inquisitors are made of - or even Space Marines. In Dark Heresy, you can play sisters as handwomen - they are useful to the Inquisition (especially the Ordo Hereticus), but that doesn't mean they are invincible or flawless. They aren't immune to corruption (just a few have ways to avoid this through their highest faith, but that's something only the purest have - and only under specific situations). Mostly are described as fanatic and unforgiving; they're very extreme characters, not really subtle most of the time.

And you know what? Chaos feeds from extreme feelings...

Agreed. Which is why I much prefer the idea of them being one-offs rather than groups.

Absolutely! This would be quite a rare event, mostly one or a few of them who managed somehow to escape the wrath of their former sisters. A whole convent falling to Chaos should have very specific reasons and would be quite a major event (and disastrous for the Ecclesiarchy!). If something would be able to cause that, it should be a cataclysmic one on a big scale, that would be able to affect a whole planet (or even a solar system!). In the 40k universe, such things aren't unheard of, unfortunately for the Imperium.

And Goge Vandire was no priest, he was a High Lord of the Administratum who ursurped the title after he killed the real Ecclesiarch.

He weared a Rosarius, meaning he was considered part of the Ecclesiarchy. And that's all that mattered; true corruption comes from inside. When you follow a corrupted one, you can't say you are free of that corruption you helped to spread.

May I talk about the true villain in Faith and Fire? Ah, but that would be a spoiler.

But I don't have to do that. In codex: Chaos Space Marine, it is the Ecclesiarch himself that led many marine chapters to their doom in the Eye of Terror.

Also the Space Wolves had to deal with a high priest having too much ambition before he was teared to pieces by Leman Russ's angry sons.

There are plenty of stories about corrupted priests of the Ecclesiarchy. Sometimes, the sisters stopped them (in a very unpleasant way involving fire and bolters, most of the time). The Ordo Hereticus also knows this very well.

da001 wrote:
Vandire didn´t rebel against the Imperium. He was the Imperium. Heretics and rebels rebelled against him.
I was concerned about GW retconning this and changing Vandire into a Chaos puppet. But they didn´t. He was a High Lord of Terra. A tyrant, but not corrupted by Chaos. That´s good. It adds depth and diversity to the background.

Hell is made with good intentions. Corrupted ones always believe they have a good reason to being corrupted. And when you made a step on that way, you can't go back.

Of course, Vandire wasn't a chaos worshipper (at least, officially until now). But what he made means that he would certainly have been more opened to its temptations. In the very end, what he did endangered the Emperor's masterwork...and he clearly went against His divine will.

Corruption does not equal failure. Punishment for the slightest mistake does not mean worshipping the Dark Gods.

True. But failure means that the strength of your will is weakened. It plants seeds of doubt in your mind. Doubt can lead to questions. And questions can open your mind to heresy. Chaos is then not so far away for those who went to that step.

But then again, they are (at best) extremely hard to corrupt. Thousands of Space Marines (and countless millions of imperial citizens) will fall before a single Sister or Grey Knight does. (off-topic note: what about the Forces of Order, the Adeptus Arbites?).

That I agree with you (though I won't go so far as saying a sister is on the same level of a Grey Knight...). It should stay a very rare event, and the Ecclesiarchy would surely try to kill them as soon as possible. Such a thing would a terrible blow to the faith of their followers.

If we are going to talk about sisters falling, I do not see why limit us to Slaanesh.

Khorne: a single Sister who sees her life as a constant war, an endless stream of violence.

Tzeentch: someone from one of the Order Famulous. Seriously... "the Order of the Key", "the Order of the Gate"... even their names sounds tzeentchy.

Nurgle: he is the corrupter by default. A disgusting sickness, unbearable pain, despair... In the background, most souls go to the warp after death. Some souls are valuable to Khorne, others to Slaanesh, others to Tzeentch, but Nurgle loves them all.

Tzeentch would be good as well for a sister who seeks knowledge and has enough to be ignorant. If she wants to change things (not especially just for herself; someone who can't stand the suffering of humanity during the harsh rule of the Imperium can think it would be for the best things change radically), that would be the god she would follow.

Nurgle is also worshipped by the people who just can't stand the idea of dieing. A sister who is afraid of death (even more if it is slow and painful, like a long sickness) may open her mind to Father Nurgle so that she can escape that fate. I can see very interesting backstories behind a Nurgle sister, to be honest - not all of them made of despair. There is nothing more horrifying when someone acts by what she honestly believes as genuine benevolence while causing atrocious deaths - if she thinks that people would be happier that way in the sweet arms of Nurgle, that may be completely true from her point of view.

with this much dedication to he lore and history and possibility of actual existence and discussion about how it could and could not exist...you think GW would go ahead and makes some miniatures for it. Obviously they would sell.

If they release a plastic kit for the sisters, no doubt there will be players who will convert them into chaos girls or something. They don't have to be corrupted sisters; just women worshiping Chaos while wearing power armours and bolters (certainly stolen on the bodies of righteous but still defeated sisters ).

One day, maybe...after they release codex Necron Air Force and their new awesome Flying Destroyer Lords of Rising Orb Doom models for the Warhammer 40k V9, in a few years.

No, have faith. We will have them eventually. Just watch what happened for the Witch Elves in Warhammer Battle. GW CAN make plastic kits of all female troop models, we now have evidence!

Sarouan wrote:[...]

I'm spoilering this because the replies in the discussion keep getting longer.

 Sarouan wrote:
and their new awesome Flying Destroyer Lords of Rising Orb Doom models for the Warhammer 40k V9,

I've so been wanting this one since I read about it in a forum rumor post made 3 years ago by some guy whose never played 40k...... soooo excited its coming soon

 Lynata wrote:
I'm spoilering this because the replies in the discussion keep getting longer.

You're right, I apologize for making that topic even more bigger!

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

 dementedwombat wrote:
Ugh, read FATAL once, not as bad as everyone said

I found it pretty bad, sometime hilariously. Like that part :

Although hill trolls crave the cortex and the surrounding cerebrospinal fluid, they savor the taste of the limbic system, most specifically the amygdala, basal ganglia, and hippocampus. Oddly, they always reject the thalamus, but devour the hypothalamus.

Really odd indeed, don't they know the wathevercampus is the best part ?
Also note I just stopped my quotation before the worse detail.

I never said it wasn't bad...just not as bad as people usually say. That said I did read the second edition which was apparently sanitized a bit from the original (although the explicit disclaimer in the front where the author honestly and legitimately said "people said words a, b, and c were offensive; so we replaced them with words x, y, and z so it wouldn't be as offensive" was kind of headbangingly stupid)

 Lynata wrote:
All I'm saying the latter can happen more easily than the former - in your example, because Sisters tend to die together.

I see both being equally harder, in your example because Sisters tend to be together, and police themselves .

 Lynata wrote:
Then those people should question their common sense.

You don't want to hear what he actually said, in fact. Really. I don't think he realized what he was saying, though. Because else, he's really fethed up.

 Lynata wrote:
Still: Here is a collection of every single piece of Codex art from both the 2E and the 3E book. Don't tell me you do not see a pattern!

Yeah, I know. But since it was never mentioned as being a rule or having a special significance, it's possible it's just some tradition, not an obligation. Maybe some remote minor Order have all their members with ponytails, or very short hairs…
Generally, GW likes to keep it as open as possible .

 Lynata wrote:
But more importantly, when the Emperor's Children strive to savour every sensation, what makes you think sex is the one exception, and why?

We never see them with some holes in their armor so that they can pleasure themselves during battle, do we ? We never hear about them trying to seduce other space marines in the middle of battle by showing off their manly appeal neither, do we ? The only slaaneshi unit we have gets it's pleasure from noise, not sex, right ?
As for why GW did this, just ask them. I do totally agree that sex seems like a more common and easy “gateway drug” than noise. But it seems GW has decided that either marines miss some possibility here, or it gets old very fast to them, while other, way more exotic stuff keeps them entertained. The second possibility seeming more probable, since mutations can make up for the first part.

 Sarouan wrote:
He weared a Rosarius, meaning he was considered part of the Ecclesiarchy.

No. Even dirty inhuman heretics like space marines chaplain own rosarius, and they sure are not part of the Ecclesiarchy !

 rayphoton wrote:
with this much dedication to he lore and history and possibility of actual existence and discussion about how it could and could not exist...you think GW would go ahead and makes some miniatures for it. Obviously they would sell.

Sorry, but creating new Sisters model is against GW's policy.

 Lynata wrote:
Also, how many Commissars do you know that fell to Chaos? How do you know they are not just as resilient?

The guy from the current starter, at least.

One of the reasons the Grey Knights haven't yet had one fall to Chaos is because their memory wipe on induction removes all emotional ties, allowing them to be fully indoctrinated into their task.

I assume sisters, being trained from a very early age, are kind of similar to this. However, I find it difficult to imagine that they didn't develop any emotional ties whatsoever while they were children, at least. It's rather hard to raise someone up from a child without creating some emotional ties no matter how stringent you are. Furthermore, aren't many of them orphans that were inducted into the schola, as opposed to trained from birth?

I find the idea absolutely ludicrous that an organization as large as the sisters managed to find a training and learning regiment that so far, in 4,000 years or so, has prevented even one sister from falling to chaos. The Grey Knights are at least a really REALLY small organization which includes a memory wipe so it'd be easy for the Imperium to contribute the resources towards such stringent indoctrination, but to be able to raise up an organization as large as the sisterhood while still not having one fall to chaos just seems a bit hard to swallow to me, even if they're raised from birth. Sure, you can say "They only let the best become sisters", but again, the sisterhood is LARGE (besides some possible retcons that possibly recently got retconned), so how could they find THAT many super-perfect-ultra-faithful-never-fall-to-chaos girls? That would imply that the Imperium somehow managed to find and create an educational institute which was perfect in itself AND had perfect teachers in itself, and IMMEDIATLEY upon the sisterhood instute's creation (What? No trial and error? You'd think some would fall while the Imperium was at least figuring out HOW to start training and raising up sisters).

(this is all assuming the Emperor or supernatural faith shenanigans aren't involved, of course. Me personally, "The Emperor did it" is the only way I can find this remotely believable, but I heard the wording in the codex wording implies it's their training and discipline and zeal, which again, is absolutely ludicrous that not one would falter in an organization so large in 4,000 years)

Furthermore, aren't many of them orphans that were inducted into the schola, as opposed to trained from birth?

No. While there are many children who go to the Schola later on in their young lives (and go on to become priests, Commissars, Administratum clerks, whatever), the Sisters are singled out as being "raised from infancy" within the Schola.

I find the idea absolutely ludicrous that an organization as large as the sisters managed to find a training and learning regiment that so far, in 4,000 years or so, has prevented even one sister from falling to chaos.

Oh ye of little faith...

Their Codex outright states (and has done so for more than a decade now) "utterly incorruptible". It's that simple. Like it or don't, your choice, but that's the studio's stance on it.

the sisterhood is LARGE (besides some possible retcons that possibly recently got retconned)

Actually, they didn't get large until this most recent e-Codex. Prior to this release, there were fewer Sisters in the galaxy than there were Space Marines.

(What? No trial and error? You'd think some would fall while the Imperium was at least figuring out HOW to start training and raising up sisters).

The Daughters of the Emperor predate their existence as the Adepta Sororitas. They were an all-female sect on San Leor. They probably had the spiritual training thing down pat.

Also, don't forget, the Emperor might have spoken directly to Alicia Dominica.

so how could they find THAT many super-perfect-ultra-faithful-never-fall-to-chaos girls?

They make them.

is absolutely ludicrous that not one would falter in an organization so large in 4,000 years

Many falter. That is why there are the Sisters Repentia and, in other fluff, the Sisters Oblatia. However, none have willingly turned to Chaos because, in all likelihood, anyone that seemed like she was even vaguely considering it got purged on the spot by someone with a multi-melta.

 Psienesis wrote:

Furthermore, aren't many of them orphans that were inducted into the schola, as opposed to trained from birth?

No. While there are many children who go to the Schola later on in their young lives (and go on to become priests, Commissars, Administratum clerks, whatever), the Sisters are singled out as being "raised from infancy" within the Schola.

Ah good, that answers that question.

Their Codex outright states (and has done so for more than a decade now) "utterly incorruptible". It's that simple. Like it or don't, your choice, but that's the studio's stance on it.

Why did you bother saying this is the studio's stance on it? I made it clear in my post that the studio said all those things. Do I need to word things out in a more simplistic fashion? The studio's stance is ludicrous. There. I'm not arguing what's canon and what's not. I'm saying the canon in this case is possibly dumb.

Seems like you've yet to let go of that LAST argument we had, which was regarding what the studio's stance on what's official and what isn't, because this particular argument I'm posting here isn't about that, but rather the believability/quality of canon that's already established. You really need to learn to let things go.

Actually, they didn't get large until this most recent e-Codex. Prior to this release, there were fewer Sisters in the galaxy than there were Space Marines.

I thought there were "dozens" of orders (including minor ones) before the 5th edition codex. Researching into it and doing some math, A convent (1,000 sisters) is supposed to be smaller than an order, far as I know. Probably less than there are Space Marines, but it'd still be around a magnitude of 200,000 - 500,000 sisters, of which around 200 generations have passed (so basically the Imperium's gone through around 4 million to 20 million sister lives in their history). Which is still much harder to swallow that the Imperium got enough teachers and a system capable of that many to never have even ONE fall to Chaos compared to a relatively puny amount of memory wiped 300+ year long lifespan (so not as many generations of Grey Knights throughout history) Marines.

The Daughters of the Emperor predate their existence as the Adepta Sororitas. They were an all-female sect on San Leor. They probably had the spiritual training thing down pat.

If that's the case, depending on how large the DoE were in the first place (Were there every any numbers given on that?), it'd still an astonishingly speedy ability of the Imperium to adapt its schola progenum teachings to it. But it's at least more believable of the DoE consisted of a large number already.

Also, don't forget, the Emperor might have spoken directly to Alicia Dominica.

Yes, there's a reason why I said "Assuming no Emperor shenanigans involved". If you involve that, then all bets are off and things are quite clearly justified. However, the wording of the codex says it's "a sign of their strength". Which means it's up to each individual sister to be strong-willed enough to not fall to Chaos rather than the Emperor backing them up.

They make them.

It's a matter of how they can make so many. To make a high quality strong-willed sister, you'd need high quality teachers, and lots of them, because they'd have to be able to personally devote a lot of time to raising a small amount of sisters (you can't have just one teacher mass-teach and raise up a ton).

Of course, if the amount of sisters isn't that large, it becomes much more believable. The main problem is GW keeps on jumping back and forth on how many sisters there are.

Many falter. That is why there are the Sisters Repentia and, in other fluff, the Sisters Oblatia. However, none have willingly turned to Chaos because, in all likelihood, anyone that seemed like she was even vaguely considering it got purged on the spot by someone with a multi-melta.

Chaos is capable of being deceptive and smart enough to keep itself low-key in many cases. So the sisters would have to do a lot of purging in that case and get a LOT of false positives (because with something as sneaky as Chaos can be, purging EVERYONE who could possibly be chaotic would destroy a ton of innocents). At that point I'd wonder why we don't see any fluff stories of sisters contemplating shooting other sisters (or honestly, anyone) from false positives, but admittingly that probably has to do with the fact that there's almost no personally-detailed fluff on sisters in the first place.

Also admittingly, the false positives are usually just relegated to "Hey, grimdark!" footnotes, I suppose, although we've yet to see some involving sisters (again, probably because there's so few non-footnote sister involvement stories in the first place).

Still, if the sisters really purged anyone even vaguely suspected of it, you'd think most would get purged or commit suicide before they could become repentia in the first place.

Why did you bother saying this is the studio's stance on it? I made it clear in my post that the studio said all those things. Do I need to word things out in a more simplistic fashion? The studio's stance is ludicrous. There. I'm not arguing what's canon and what's not. I'm saying the canon in this case is apparently dumb.

Seems like you've yet to let go of that LAST argument we had, which was regarding what the studio's stance on what's official and what isn't, because this particular argument I'm posting here isn't about that, but rather the believability/quality of canon that's already established. You really need to learn to let things go.

o.0

Willis, what the feth are you talkin' 'bout?

You're free to not agree with the studio "canon", but arguing from the opposite side, or trying to argue the validity of it is... pointless, really. It's the information the studio provides, we go with it. There's plenty of stuff from the studio I don't particularly like, but since that's the canon, it's the canon. While I personally think the Space Wolves would have been declared Excommunicatus Traitorus after the First War of Armageddon, they weren't, so there it goes. They're still around.

(because with something as sneaky as Chaos can be, purging EVERYONE who could possibly be chaotic would destroy a ton of innocents)

As they say in the setting: It is better that a thousand innocents should die than to let one guilty walk free.

... they also say that "innocence proves nothing", and that "a plea of innocence is guilty of wasting my time. Guilty!".

The sneakiness of Chaos also *really* depends on who's writing it. Sometimes it's insidious, some times it's just mustache-twirling.

There is also the possibility that, no, there *aren't* a lot of "false positives". There is heresy, and there is not. The Sisters, and the Inquisition, may have a defined line drawn, that if you do something over on this side, you're not a heretic (but we *will* be watching) but if you do anything from this list over on this side of the line, we burn you to ash in a plasma reactor and then shoot your ashes into a star.

The Sisters have the ability to perform Genetic Purity tests and such, and determine if someone is genetically mutated or cross-bred with certain Xenos. It is possible that the effects of Chaos Corruption leave other markers within a subject that can be tested for, such as motes of Warp energy in the bloodstream or runic marks on certain cell-bodies. We're simply not provided with the details.

And, yes, Chaos *can* be low-key... to a point. There comes a point, however, where it can no longer be low-key or it's not doing anything of any value. However, this kind of corruption is best in places where it can remain low-key.

The Sisters live amongst themselves in their priories and convents. They do not move amongst the population of the Imperium on a regular basis in most cases (some variance exists, based on the Order). They live lives of prayer, deprivation, self-inflicted suffering, harsh discipline and training. These tiny foot-holds of Chaos, these seeds keeping a low-key are... pretty quickly stamped out. These seeds find no fertile ground in which to grow.

TiamatRoar wrote:
The main problem is GW keeps on jumping back and forth on how many sisters there are.

They don't. As far as I'm aware, GW has always told us the average numbers of the Major Orders, and said that Minor Orders are an unknown quantity. It's non-studio stuff, like Soulstorm, where we see different numbers. Soulstorm, for example, had "millions" (it might've just been a million) of Sisters coming to a world to pray.