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Ah, that's totally different. That's not the Sisters being corrupted, that's some priest somewhere, whom the Sisters work with/for, being members of the Ecclesiarchy as they are, not knowing that he's corrupted/possessed/whatever and following what seem to be normal orders. In this event, it is not the Sisters being corrupted, but a non-Sister NPC.

Don't forget, it is the job of the Sisters to purge heretical Space Marine Chapters. Im sure there's been issues in the past where some Successor (or even Founding) Chapter has gotten pissed at the Sisters for putting their ancestor/decendent Chapter to the torch and come looking for payback.

 Troike wrote:

 da001 wrote:

 Troike wrote:

 da001 wrote:
However, if the new codex makes it that clear that Sisters are like they are because of their training... then I am with TiamatRoar: it makes no sense. They should fall to chaos (and other things) left and right.

Not at all. Magic is not the only way to reject Chaos. Look at how adamantium will works, the influence of the warp can be resisted with willpower alone.

Only for a few seconds, only if it is raw power (a blast of energy instead of a lie you hear from your best friend), only if you are lucky

Nope, it can work for an extended period. Here, look at this:

web.archive.org/web/20071218114030/http://es.games-workshop.com/especialista/inquisitor/bestiario/repentia.html

The Sisters in it are simply immune to a Nurglite plague, which would be constant presence and threat rather than a solitary attack. In a similar vein, Anastasia herself suffers the plague for days before finally fighting it off.

Now, I know that your response will likely be that it could have been the power of faith that protected them, but I think that this ties in nicely with what the SoB codexes say and the idea behind Adamantium will. Stong willpower alone acting as a bulwark against Chaos.

My response (thanks for the copy-paste): it could have been he power of faith that protected them.

Not the willpower. They are Sisters of Battle, they are immune to a plague sent by the Plague God himself. This cannot be explained by willpower alone. Show me an unfaithful doing the same. However,

 Medium of Death wrote:
The concept of Chaos SoB doesn't dilute the faction.

Just like coward Space Marines, Chaos Grey Knights, a Sister of Battle having a relationship with a tau ethereal, or (shudders) a necron with human feelings who gets along with Astartes.
I am OK with someone doing Chaos Sisters for fun. I like the concept. But if GW decides to go there... that´s another completely different thing.

 Troike wrote:

 Medium of Death wrote:
Orders that have fallen

Whole Orders? Nope. If not a single Sister falls to Chaos in the studio fluff, then a whole Order is certainly not going to fall.

For me that would be like talking about a full chapter of coward Space Marines, a full brotherhood of Grey Knights secretly corrupted by Chaos which leader is called brother captain Alpharius, a relationship between a Sister of Battle and a tau ethereal being blessed by the Ecclessiarchy with a new codex allowing you to field their offspring in the table, or whatever abomination is He Who Can Not Be Mentioned pondering for his next Codex.
Fun if it is fanfiction. But if it is a faction you really like... it is not fun.
action you really like... it is not fun.

Fair enough, if you want to through a relatively reasonable suggestion against ridiculous examples that's fine.

SoB are just Humans in Power Armour. They don't have anything other than blind faith to protect them. With all the power of the Chaos Gods it is not completely unlikely for it to happen.

Lorgar and the Word Bearers, were the most devout and yet one catastrophic act shattered his faith in the Emperor and sought him to find new Gods.

 Medium of Death wrote:
SoB are just Humans in Power Armour.

They are humans, but they have gone through an entire lifetime of heavy indoctrination, and live lives utterly devoted to their belief. They're not ordinary humans.

One thing that you have to remember about the Sisters is that they are not just IG in power armour, not just zealots with fancy equipment. These are people who, even in a Imperium known for running on relgious fervor, are noted for their extreme faith.

 Medium of Death wrote:
They don't have anything other than blind faith to protect them.

Which is exactly what protects against Chaos. See the examples posted ITT, the sheer belief of the Sisters does protect them.

 Medium of Death wrote:
Lorgar and the Word Bearers, were the most devout and yet one catastrophic act shattered his faith in the Emperor and sought him to find new Gods.

Not a valid comparison. This came up earlier actually, and as Lynata pointed out, it's hardly likely that the Emperor is able to tell the Sisters to stop worshiping him. And depending on your interpretation of Celestine, one could even say that he might just approve of their faith.

 Medium of Death wrote:
It was a WD article to justify why the Grey Knights would be fighting another army. The situation I remember was a Tau ethereal being transformed into a Greater Daemon of Tzeentch after coming into contact with an artifact. It was more scenario based. Its an example of the incorruptable being corrupted and while not directly SoB, it's certainly out there. I'm not sure if Witch Hunters were included in the article.

The concept of the SoB start off with them being fooled by a despotic man, I'm sure their sucessors aren't completely immune to the trickery of the Chaos Gods. I still think the possibility of expunging records or excommunication is valid.

I am not sure if this is what you are talking about. There is a section in the Daemonhunters Codex (really cool book) giving the players reasons to fight other armies. Because Daemonhunters fought demons, and that was their full-time job. They did not patrol the full galaxy fighting xenos until 5th edition. I am translating the Tau entry:

Tau:
1) The Emperor´s Tarot says a Tau leader is corrupted.
2) The Tau are attacking a sacred place and demons are taking advantage of this.
3) A psyker or a possessed has been taken prisoner by the Tau
4) The Tau have found a demonic contraption are they are turning it on to see what happen. They do not know what it is.
5) The Tau are attacking a relic (an altar world?)

Unless you are talking about something else, it clearly hints that Tau do not get corrupted too. And I am not sure about comparing Tau with Sisters of Battle or Grey Knights regarding the warp.

Also... both Daemonhunters and Witch-hunters Codexes lack a DH Vs WH section, which is telling. However you may be talking about a White Dwarf report... sounds interesting.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Medium of Death wrote:
Fair enough, if you want to through a relatively reasonable suggestion against ridiculous examples that's fine.

I apologize if I sounded aggressive. But a full order of SoB turning chaos is ridiculous to me. They are described as being incorruptible. What´s the point of the Sisters of Battle then? They would be just Humans in Power Armour.

SoB are just Humans in Power Armour.

See?
The next sentence is usually "I don´t get why they are a separate faction, they could be rolled with the Inquisition or the Imperial Guard".
Grey Knights are also described as being incorruptible. It also stretches belief. But what would happen if you take this out? What would be the point of the Grey Knights?

They don't have anything other than blind faith to protect them. With all the power of the Chaos Gods it is not completely unlikely for it to happen.

But all the power of the Emperor protects them. Or this is the way many see the army. Living Saints are Greater Demons, and Sisters are the equivalent of marked troops. They follow a god and this god actively protects them. That´s the key point here.

Lorgar and the Word Bearers, were the most devout and yet one catastrophic act shattered his faith in the Emperor and sought him to find new Gods.

Not relevant, but I really think the Emperor did this on purpose.
And primarchs behave like teenagers.

Troike wrote:They are humans, but they have gone through an entire lifetime of heavy indoctrination, and live lives utterly devoted to their belief. They're not ordinary humans.
One thing that you have to remember about the Sisters is that they are not just IG in power armour, not just zealots with fancy equipment. These are people who, even in a Imperium known for running on relgious fervor, are noted for their extreme faith.

Which, in GW's own words, makes them "equals to their brother Space Marines."

I've went through a few of my books, just in case anyone wants to read what has been written and repeated in studio ever since this army existed:

"Before a battle, members of the Ecclesiarchy perform various ceremonies for the soldiers, asking for the Emperor's guidance and protection. They lead the faithful in prayer, dedicating their souls to the undying Emperor. By means of these special ceremonies they can instil their followers with an unshakeable faith in the Emperor, driving them on to even higher acts of bravery or determination and strengthening people's minds against the perils of enemy psykers."
- 2E C:SoB, Sacred Rites

"One of the Adepta Sororitas' greatest weapons is faith, and their zeal is a potent force, manifesting as divine inspiration that drives the Sororitas to unprecedented levels of performance."
- 3E C:CA

"The training regimes practiced by the Battle Sisters of the Orders Militant are derived from the martial values of the original Daughters of the Emperor, and were initially laid down by the Daughters' mistresses at their San Leor shrinehold. For millennia, the Sisters have practiced their unique method of war, combining combat doctrine and prayer which enables them to accomplish feats upon the battlefield that appear miraculous to the unschooled."
- 3E C:WH

"The Sisters of Battle can draw upon the wellspring of their faith to guide their actions. Absolute belief in the Imperial Creed allows Sisters of Battle to perform the seemingly impossible."
- 5E C:SoB

"The Sisters of Battle are taught that faith is a shield stronger than any armour. Such is the power of their belief that the Emperor will protect them that the Adepta Sororitas can shrug off the most severe of wounds and resist the witchcraft of enemy sorcerers."
- 6E C:SoB

... and since I'm already at it ...

"The Battle Sisters are utterly dedicated to the Emperor. Their one purpose is to strive for his honour and glory and to protect the Imperium from all threats. The faith of the Adepta Sororitas is unswerving, they are raised from birth to believe the Emperor is the only hope for humanity. Their pious, rigid way of life allows the Battle Sisters no room for pleasure, there is only prayer and war. There is nothing an enemy could offer them, they are impossible to bribe and totally incorruptible."
- WD #211

"The Sisters of Battle are trained to the highest levels with an unshakeable faith in the divinity of the Emperor. Their fanatical devotion and unwavering purity is a bastion against corruption, heresy and alien attack. [...] The Sisters are incorruptible warriors, each dedicating her life to penitent worship and the rigorous training of mind, body and spirit."
- 3E C:CA

"When combined with their unquenchable faith, they are a force to be reckoned with, forming an army of totally incorruptible and highly motivated warriors who enforce the will of the Emperor, as interpreted by the Ecclesiarchy, with precise volleys of bolter fire."
- 6E C:SoB


Of course all of this is just one side of the medal. Maybe this is all just propaganda, exaggerated like the exploits of the (not so mighty?) Space Marines. In the end, I just wanted to point at the books as a way of defending this perspective as at least equally valid against what one may have read in some novel or wherever. The rest is up to interpretation and personal preferences.

For the record, science is currently studying the effects of belief on our bodies. Hypnosis - the act of making you believe that you'll feel no pain - is already being used as an alternative to anaesthetics in surgery rooms of modern clinics. And I'm sure you know of the placebo effect.
More examples:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/science/science-news/3340410/Self-belief-in-sport-as-good-as-performance-enhancing-drugs.html
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/russ-gerber/mind-body_b_1156359.html

The human body seems capable of much more than we permit it to do - it just seems to require a specific mindset, perhaps even a specific situation, to unlock its full potential. It could at least explain stuff like a 22 year old girl lifting a 2.5 ton car off her dad.

 da001 wrote:
The next sentence is usually "I don´t get why they are a separate faction, they could be rolled with the Inquisition or the Imperial Guard".

I don't get why they are a separate faction, all color space marines should be rolled into the Sisters dex. Let's put all the marines in the Elite section, because they are so Elite. And then forget about them, and find new Sisters unit to fill the rest of the book .

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

 da001 wrote:
The next sentence is usually "I don´t get why they are a separate faction, they could be rolled with the Inquisition or the Imperial Guard".

I don't get why they are a separate faction, all color space marines should be rolled into the Sisters dex. Let's put all the marines in the Elite section, because they are so Elite. And then forget about them, and find new Sisters unit to fill the rest of the book .

@Lynata wow thanks that´s very useful

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:
I don't get why they are a separate faction, all color space marines should be rolled into the Sisters dex. Let's put all the marines in the Elite section, because they are so Elite. And then forget about them, and find new Sisters unit to fill the rest of the book .

I chuckled. Here, take this exalt.

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:
Does she kills them all and then sends their progenoid glands on a stick to the Malevolent chapter master, along with a written note which just contains a big feth YOU ? I sure hope she does !

Don't think so. The description made it sound more like she's tending the wounded whilst being all idealistic, and then the Marines Malevolent come along being spankers and she gets upset about it.

 Lynata wrote:
For the record, science is currently studying the effects of belief on our bodies. Hypnosis - the act of making you believe that you'll feel no pain - is already being used as an alternative to anaesthetics in surgery rooms of modern clinics. And I'm sure you know of the placebo effect.
More examples:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/science/science-news/3340410/Self-belief-in-sport-as-good-as-performance-enhancing-drugs.html
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/russ-gerber/mind-body_b_1156359.html

The human body seems capable of much more than we permit it to do - it just seems to require a specific mindset, perhaps even a specific situation, to unlock its full potential. It could at least explain stuff like a 22 year old girl lifting a 2.5 ton car off her dad.

Interesting links. One can make a good case for AoFs not being magical using stuff like this, since I don't think that they're really any less crazy than a lot of the things the Sisters pull off.

I guess this explains the priest getting smash, then.

Yeah, I think this is what the writers were gunning for - taking stories like these, and the many supposed miracles that were documented in real world history, and turning the exception into a rule (figuratively and literally).

It is often said that the Sisters are an army of Jeanne d'Arcs, so it kind of fits to that myth.

Also, another exalt for Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl.

er a sister of battle has fallen to chaos so in my opinion they are not utterly incorruptible. Its very hard to make them fall but they are not immune to corruption hence why they have their current life style.

Oh and that sister in red chaos armor? Looks down right badass we should have more chaos sisters in my opinion if they look that good plus Miriael looks great too in my opinion I think they keep corrupted sisters on the down low considering the short story with Miriael. Lets not forget the codex is like propaganda for the faction IMO.

Now I think a whole army of chaos sisters? erm no that sounds waaay out there but a sister chaos lord like Miriael or a squad of sister chosen? I could see it happening.

As we've pointed out a few times ITT, there are zero studio characters of fallen Sisters. There's one from a third-party licensed product, and a wider variety from miscellaneous Black Library books.

Per their Codices and other GW publications... which BL novels are under no requirement to follow... they are completely incorruptible, just like the Grey Knights.

ETA: One is, of course, free to paint their models however they like and write whatever fluff they want for them. The question, though, was "is it fluffy?", the answer to which is "not really, no". Even taking Miriael into account, that was one Sister who turned under extremely rare circumstances and under some of Chaos' biggest guns for the attempt.

Miriael herself originated from a third-party trading card game.

Personally I think having a group of incorruptible people is not really that interesting and with the grey knights they are constantly worrying about who is going to be the first one to fall they went far enough to use a blood ritual I think that en riches their incorruptible background.

Well thats just my opinion on the subject. In my opinion even if you don't agree we have one corrupted sister and I say if the OP can come up with a good reason I say he goes for it.

I am looking at Miriael wiki page and one of the sources say. Now I don't have these codex's since they are rather old so I won't say anything else. As I said before I could see a chaos force having like one lord or a squad not a whole army. As I said before if OP can make a good reason go for it.

Codex: Chaos Space Marines (3rd Edition, 1st Codex)
Codex: Sisters of Battle (2nd Edition), pp. 18-19, 35

That wiki page's sources are wrong, Miriael never appeared in a codex. And it's highly likely that a lot of the info on her there is made up too.

 Troike wrote:
That wiki page's sources are wrong, Miriael never appeared in a codex. And it's highly likely that a lot of the info on her there is made up too.

Fair enough. Anyway thats it for me OP just do what you want.

One of the reasons for why I'm always cautioning against fan-edited wikis, and recommend looking at the original sources.

I don't know whether the claim that she was in the Codex was first posted on 40kWiki and was then adopted by Lexicanum, or whether it was the other way around, but I do remember looking it up and not finding what the wikis claimed. Lexicanum has since removed that statement as one of its editors is also posting here and probably saw my posts on the subject.

I still like Miriael and have adopted her into my headcanon, but I remain adamantly opposed against turning an exception into something more, as I feel it makes the event and the character less remarkable. Matter of taste, though. With 40k, what's "fluffy" and what not often depends a lot on interpretation and preferences.

shinros wrote:
Personally I think having a group of incorruptible people is not really that interesting and with the grey knights they are constantly worrying about who is going to be the first one to fall they went far enough to use a blood ritual I think that en riches their incorruptible background.

Well thats just my opinion on the subject. In my opinion even if you don't agree we have one corrupted sister and I say if the OP can come up with a good reason I say he goes for it.

I am looking at Miriael wiki page and one of the sources say. Now I don't have these codex's since they are rather old so I won't say anything else. As I said before I could see a chaos force having like one lord or a squad not a whole army. As I said before if OP can make a good reason go for it.

Codex: Chaos Space Marines (3rd Edition, 1st Codex)
Codex: Sisters of Battle (2nd Edition), pp. 18-19, 35

As others have posted, Miriael appears in no official, GW-produced product. She is from a Dan Abnett short story and a 3rd-party 40K-themed card game.

But, again, like I said earlier, I don't care what someone does with their own models or what fluff they write for them. They can do whatever they want with their money and time. I'm simply providing the background and answers to the question of whether or not it fits into the Codex background for the Army, which it does not.

Shoot, I like the concept of Miriael myself, and the way she's presented, but I wouldn't use her in my DH games or anything, I have a few other characters with more history with my gaming group that can take that role and have a bigger story impact by their presence than someone I would have to explain.

I think everyone likes Miriael... because she is unique.

 da001 wrote:
I think everyone likes Miriael... because she is unique.

Are you sure its not her tongue? Cause its dam awesome.

 Troike wrote:

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:
Does she kills them all and then sends their progenoid glands on a stick to the Malevolent chapter master, along with a written note which just contains a big feth YOU ? I sure hope she does !

Don't think so. The description made it sound more like she's tending the wounded whilst being all idealistic, and then the Marines Malevolent come along being spankers and she gets upset about it.

I sincerely hope this ideal she's idealistically pursuing involves planting scalpels deep into the brain of Malevolent Marines by going through the soft eyeball instead of the though skull, which might damage this holy instrument quite useful to dispense the Emperor's healing.
And progenoid glands brochette !

So far in the fluff I've seen, most sisters seem to actually follow protocol and forward issues up the chain of command as expected of a proper military organization so that a proper investigation may begin. The whole "They torture anything they even remotely suspect of heresy!!!" thing only really showed up in the Dawn of War Soulstorm game.

Well, in the Armageddon global campaign fluff, the Argent Shroud supposedly has a kind of a reputation with Imperial forces, from Space Marines to Imperial Guard.

Most of the IoM's internal problems seem to come from there not being a straight chain of command - or rather, that a lot of organisations have overlapping responsibilities, and like to assume responsibility (read: authority) over others. Everyone (except the Inquisition) is supposed to play ball and do what the High Lords tell them, but as it is a big galaxy, the High Lords are busy people, and interstellar communication is not exactly instantaneous, this creates a lot of opportunity, even necessity, for local commanders to take charge of the situation, and bully their allies into submission. The only exception is when the High Lords nominate a Warmaster, or the factions present in the area hold a vote. Or, of course, when you've got an Inquisitor snooping around, though I imagine most of them have better things to do than playing nannies for the various Imperial Adepta.

 Lynata wrote:
Well, in the Armageddon global campaign fluff, the Argent Shroud supposedly has a kind of a reputation with Imperial forces, from Space Marines to Imperial Guard.

Hmm, nice. Assuming the Imperial Commander is downplaying things a bit in order to be polite (a reasonable enough assumption), that would be a good fluff case of an SoB order that goes a bit overboard in purging other Imperial Organizations after a while (from the point of view of those other Imperial Organizations). Although I do find it a convenient narrative "coincidence" that their latest leader is more reasonable than prior ones.

It's probably a good representation of what happens when Sisters are "bored" and hang around in a deployment zone without having things to shoot. They suddenly find themselves surrounded by normal people, and start applying their own strict rules to them.
It's a kind of "reverse reality shock" where the Sisters are confronted with life outside the convent walls, and they think that normal people are the aberration because every proper Imperial servant would live as they do.

Just point them into the direction of something even more heretical than a Necromundan ganger or a Savlar Chem-Dog, and they'll leave them be and focus on the actual enemy.

 Lynata wrote:
It's probably a good representation of what happens when Sisters are "bored" and hang around in a deployment zone without having things to shoot. They suddenly find themselves surrounded by normal people, and start applying their own strict rules to them.
It's a kind of "reverse reality shock" where the Sisters are confronted with life outside the convent walls, and they think that normal people are the aberration because every proper Imperial servant would live as they do.

Just point them into the direction of something even more heretical than a Necromundan ganger or a Savlar Chem-Dog, and they'll leave them be and focus on the actual enemy.

Yea, that fluff piece you linked to even explicitly singled out the "regarded each other with suspicion OFF the battlefield". On the battlefield, they seem to operate just fine with other Imperial forces (judging by how the fluff praised their in-battle actions and called them inspirational), which is how I've always thought of them as well.

I suppose the pieces I was thinking of in particular were in regards to the Marines Malevolent and the Flesh Tearers. In those cases, instead of attacking the marine chapter, they wrote to High Command of their "concerns" on the issue rather than give judgement themselves. However, the fluff piece you linked to also makes it clear they take matters into their own hands sometimes since it mentions an attack of the Ardent Shroud on a Space Marine chapter that, going by the tone of the piece, that Imperial Commander and many others believed was a bit harsh. I guess it varies from time to time, and order to order (after all, the fluff piece about the sister's "concerns" regarding the Flesh Tearers instead of just having her order come down on them comes from the same Armegeddon source, even)

A lot depends on who writes a particular piece of fluff (just look at that other thread with the reviews on the Sisters' portrayal in the "Blood of Asaheim" novel), but in-universe there also seems to be a certain range on how their leaders (the Canonesses and Sisters Superior) can differ in personality and avoid the cardboard-cutout cliché, without actually "breaking the mold" that shapes them into what they are. After all, unbreakable faith can express itself both in aggressive zealotry as well as calm determination. According to the Liber Sororitas, the different Orders feature certain tendencies that have its Sisters develop more strongly into one direction or another, depending on which Founding Saint they adore and feel inspired by. Simultaneously, most commanders likely choose and groom their own successors, which would often include a matching outlook on how to handle things. But still, depending on the circumstances, and an individual Sister's capabilities and skill, an Order could experience a slight shift in its "level of aggression" as it changes leadership, even though such changes likely never extend to every single Sororitas in the convent, making it a matter of clarity of orders limiting the interpretation and improvisation of squad leaders in the field.

 Lynata wrote:
(just look at that other thread with the reviews on the Sisters' portrayal in the "Blood of Asaheim" novel)

Where is it ? I'm interested.

There you go. da001 has quoted the opinions of Troike and Furyou Miko on how the Sisters were treated in that novel in the 1st spoiler of the linked post.

Thanks.