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In The Death of Antagonis Mortisian guardsmen use lasrifles as well as a weapon called a bolter rifle. Is 'bolter rifle' just a synonym for boltgun? Other characters use bolter weaponry but in those cases it is always referred to as boltguns or bolt pistols.

From this passage: The Death of Antagonis, page 95
"All the lasrifles and bolter rifles but Setheno's suddenly fell silent..."

Just another name for the boltgun. Or bolter. Or boltergun. Or... actually, can't remember any other variations of the name that I've seen pop up in BL and other sources but, yeah, just another name for a boltgun.

Maybe they meant bolt rifles, I've never heard of a bolter rifle before. But I may be wrong.

Or maybe that novel author just invented a new weapon that you'll only see in his books. Kind of like the "bolt carbine" in Dark Heresy.
(and yes, that term was referring to a bolt weapon .. bolter-type weapon .. you know what I mean )

 Lynata wrote:
Or maybe that novel author just invented a new weapon that you'll only see in his books. Kind of like the "bolt carbine" in Dark Heresy.
(and yes, that term was referring to a bolt weapon .. bolter-type weapon .. you know what I mean )

Probably this. A bolt rifle as a specific thing makes no sense because the spin on the bolt round is supposedly imparted by angled vents on the rocket motor. Unless they are guns designed to fire more simple rocket rounds that require barrel rifling to work properly. Is a bolt carbine not just a bolt pistol with a bigger mag?

I had forgotten that the bolter-carbine thing even existed and, as far as I can dimly remember, it is basically a boltpistol with a magazine exceeding 8 rounds.

 Psienesis wrote:
Just another name for the boltgun. Or bolter. Or boltergun. Or... actually, can't remember any other variations of the name that I've seen pop up in BL and other sources but, yeah, just another name for a boltgun.

multilasers

A Bolt Rifle is an oxymoron, given that they are Gyrojet weapons. However, to most people, a rifle is synonymous with any weapon with a long stock and barrel.

Technically, in GW's background, bolters have a rifled barrel...

What exactly was the source for those "angled vents", Flinty? I vaguely recall having seen something like this in the promo material for the Ultramarines movie, yet the rounds on this picture from the 3rd Edition Rulebook look a lot smaller than the one from that movie.
Perhaps it is the rifling that gives the bolt the spin, and the bolt itself has a more primitive rocket motor? Perhaps it might even be more reliable if you impart the spin motion in the barrel, or at least more efficient, if you only need to care for forward momentum, directing the propulsion stream into a single direction.

Psienesis wrote:I had forgotten that the bolter-carbine thing even existed and, as far as I can dimly remember, it is basically a boltpistol with a magazine exceeding 8 rounds.

Hmm, the one I remember, the "Angelus bolt carbine" from the Inquisitor's Handbook is a short rifle that carries a whopping 3 rounds. It's special because it uses "Astartes calibre bolt shells", which are of course oh-so-much better than the "civilian weapons" that everybody else uses. Never mind the fact that both Dark Heresy and Deathwatch name the very same calibre for both "classes" of weapons (.75).

It gets even funnier if you consider that the damage profile of the Angelus is "just" 2d10 damage compared to the 1d10+4 of "civilian" bolters (you know, used by civilians such as Inquisitors or Battle Sisters) because this is what was said in the Space Marine stats of DH's first adventure, yet when Deathwatch came around they suddenly upped Marine bolters to 2d10+9, of course leaving the Angelus unchanged. Yay consistency.

Sorry for the rant. One of the few axes I have to keep grinding when talking about that RPG.

Lets sit back a moment and remember that bolters make no sense. They are a caseless gyrojet projectile with a delayed explosive charge.

This would match best with the 20 mm grenade launchers that the US army uses. They are smoothbore because the jets would be angled to cause the munition to spin in the air. Yet we are told bolters are rifled, in most pictures you have spent casings coming from the guns, and the rounds don't explode.

I have to say, in this case I don't see where it doesn't "make sense".

To me, the best equivalent to a boltgun is an AA-12 automatic shotgun with HEAP ammunition. "Just" add the rocket motor (and maybe rifling; the AA-12 is probably smoothbore) to the slug and you're there.
It even almost looks the part and has almost the right calibre (12G = ~0.73 in, whereas a bolter has cal 0.75).

Why "must" bolt rounds have angled jets when the alternative (spin by rifled barrel) is just as plausible?
And what's wrong with spent casings from the gun when they are mentioned to be fired like a conventional rifle, with the rocket motor only kicking in once the projectile cleared the barrel?
And why should bolter rounds not explode?

 Psienesis wrote:
I had forgotten that the bolter-carbine thing even existed and, as far as I can dimly remember, it is basically a boltpistol with a magazine exceeding 8 rounds.

The assault weapon laws of the 41st millennium are a strange and labyrinthine creation...any pistol with more than 8 rounds becomes classified as a "carbine" for no apparent reason. Good thing they don't have bayonet lugs or they'd be illegal to own without Inquisitorial permission

 Lynata wrote:
I have to say, in this case I don't see where it doesn't "make sense".

To me, the best equivalent to a boltgun is an AA-12 automatic shotgun with HEAP ammunition. "Just" add the rocket motor (and maybe rifling; the AA-12 is probably smoothbore) to the slug and you're there.
It even almost looks the part and has almost the right calibre (12G = ~0.73 in, whereas a bolter has cal 0.75).

Why "must" bolt rounds have angled jets when the alternative (spin by rifled barrel) is just as plausible?
And what's wrong with spent casings from the gun when they are mentioned to be fired like a conventional rifle, with the rocket motor only kicking in once the projectile cleared the barrel?
And why should bolter rounds not explode?

"Caseless" means that the projectile does not have a metal jacket holding the powder and shot for the gun to eject.
The rounds should explode, but in Space Marine,Dawn of War and much of the artwork it isn't shown to do so.
Jet propelled rounds can't expand the cartridge in order to engage the rifling and add the needed spin. Odds are tight enough rifling would cause the round to stick in the barrel and vent propellant through the grooves. There is a reason all the Sheridan and Soviet Gun/Launchers are smoothbore.

I know what caseless is; bolters have not been caseless in GW's material for about 20 years.

Apart from artwork not necessarily being an accurate depiction of the background, I've actually played Space Marine and thought that it portrayed the explosions nicely by evidently causing a lot of bloodshed (the amount of which would not be explainable by a normal round) whilst not being over the top. You should not expect people to explode into little giblets just because they're hit with a small charge. The bolt was specifically mentioned to explode after penetration (microsecond fuse trigger), so most of the effect would be localised within the body. Thick skin or armour would "trap" the shockwave inside the body rather than allowing it to hurl organic material all over the place.

The rocket motor of a bolt kicks in after the projectile has left the barrel. The round is first fired like a conventional bullet, hence the casing, so it passes through the rifled barrel like a conventional bullet. It will pick up speed after clearing the barrel when the rocket ignites.

Durandal wrote:

 Lynata wrote:
I have to say, in this case I don't see where it doesn't "make sense".

To me, the best equivalent to a boltgun is an AA-12 automatic shotgun with HEAP ammunition. "Just" add the rocket motor (and maybe rifling; the AA-12 is probably smoothbore) to the slug and you're there.
It even almost looks the part and has almost the right calibre (12G = ~0.73 in, whereas a bolter has cal 0.75).

Why "must" bolt rounds have angled jets when the alternative (spin by rifled barrel) is just as plausible?
And what's wrong with spent casings from the gun when they are mentioned to be fired like a conventional rifle, with the rocket motor only kicking in once the projectile cleared the barrel?
And why should bolter rounds not explode?

"Caseless" means that the projectile does not have a metal jacket holding the powder and shot for the gun to eject.
The rounds should explode, but in Space Marine,Dawn of War and much of the artwork it isn't shown to do so.
Jet propelled rounds can't expand the cartridge in order to engage the rifling and add the needed spin. Odds are tight enough rifling would cause the round to stick in the barrel and vent propellant through the grooves. There is a reason all the Sheridan and Soviet Gun/Launchers are smoothbore.

They don't so much "explode", like a bomb, but "shatter", like a fragmenting round. It's a very small explosion within the target, intended to greatly increase the size of the wound cavity or, if firing at a target in cover, blow the cover apart in small chunks. The bolter round, itself, is a two-stage munition, using a conventional charge to push it down the barrel, thus achieving lethal velocity as it leaves the muzzle, the gyro-rocket kicking in some few meters away.

The rounds should explode, but in Space Marine,Dawn of War and much of the artwork it isn't shown to do so.

Actually in space marine they DO explode, you can see them give a light explosion a second after they hit the target. (And it's really satisfying )

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CTOxAMCOG_s

"Bolt weapons launch a projectile with a mass reactive warhead. Each bolt is jet propelled and explodes inside the target, causing considerable damage and with a distinctive cracking detonation." - Inquisitor rule book.

You will find similar verbage in the Rogue Trader and Deathwatch rule books.

The shot should fire like the Gyrojet rounds designed by Art Biehl in the '60s. The launch makes a pop and then a hissing noise, not the report you get from conventional firearms. Then, a split second after impact you should get the crack. The whole shell is fired, there is no casing needed since the propellant is not completely exhausted in the launch.

Instead, in Space Marine, you get the crack when you fire the shot, and the blood spatter is minimal and smaller then a .75 cal round should cause strictly by impact.

A wound cavity caused by a .50 caliber rifle round is larger then the human body. A person hit by one can be torn in half.

Orks shot by Captain Titus don't even lose a limb.

Also, MK5 bolters, and even some variants illustrated in the latest marine codex, like the ancient Salamander one, don't have exit ports for the cap on the end of the bolt round. The exit ports themselves are often too small compared to the barrel of the gun and not lined up correctly with the breech.

I love the fluff for bolters, but the artwork, concept and portrayal in fiction don't line up at all with one another. It is just another endearing quirk of the 40k universe.

As always there is a ton of variation, but I've always seen bolters depicted as firing weapons with shell casings. It is easy to explain that a bolt is a multi-stage propellant ammunition. The casing charge is for the initial boost, while the gyrojets trigger just after and allow for extended range/accuracy.

A'ight, let's approach this slowly.

Durandal wrote:"Bolt weapons launch a projectile with a mass reactive warhead. Each bolt is jet propelled and explodes inside the target, causing considerable damage and with a distinctive cracking detonation." - Inquisitor rule book.

Which is not at all contradictory to the other fluff. The bolt is propelled by its own rocket motor. It is also still launched like a conventional bullet.

"The bolt contains an armour piercing tip, an explosive, and a mass reactive detonator. It is shot from the barrel under low velocity, its own propellant igniting once the missile is clear of the barrel."
- 2E Wargear Book

Durandal wrote:Instead, in Space Marine, you get the crack when you fire the shot, and the blood spatter is minimal and smaller then a .75 cal round should cause strictly by impact.

I remember it differently - and thought this was fine. Keep in mind you are shooting at Orks. Those guys are tough, see above for how this would affect the internal detonation.

Durandal wrote:A wound cavity caused by a .50 caliber rifle round is larger then the human body. A person hit by one can be torn in half.

Size is not everything. Or rather, size does not matter at all here. Kinetic energy of the impact depends on the velocity and mass of the projectile - and wound cavity can be further influenced by the shape and making of the tip (from all I've read, an armour piercing round is not going to make as big a hole as, say, a hollow point).
For a practical example .. muskets fired balls with a larger calibre than .75 and they did not rip people apart. So just pointing at calibres really does not mean anything.

Durandal wrote:Also, MK5 bolters, and even some variants illustrated in the latest marine codex, like the ancient Salamander one, don't have exit ports for the cap on the end of the bolt round. The exit ports themselves are often too small compared to the barrel of the gun and not lined up correctly with the breech.

1. The actual barrel is very small. The big muzzle seems to function more like a "blast condensator" catching the ignition of the missile once it has cleared the true barrel? That's my interpretation anyways - either way, cal .75 means a diameter of 1.9 cm, which is comparable to a shotgun slug in size, See the cross section I posted earlier for a visual comparison between bolt and "outer barrel".
2. Technically, exit ports do not have to be lined up with the barrel. The casing could be moved around within the gun before ejection. Given how small the actual barrel is compared to the weapon, this is most certainly the case, even if the port would be horizontally lined up.
3. and most importantly, artist impressions may not always accurately reflect the fluff; this has been pointed out before. Doesn't change anything about the descriptions, though, and in fairness most of the art seems fairly accurate.

Joker card: contrary to common belief, 40k does not actually have a "true" canon where such details would be solid fact. If you don't like the two-stage firing mode, disregard it and go with your gyrojet opinion. I'm just here to point out what it says in the original material - the rest is up to you.

Well, it is true that given the fluff, you could have the X pattern bolter work one way, and the Y pattern bolter work another. My point was that the fluff and art is all over the place and doesn't match up.

It's not intended to.

 Psienesis wrote:
It's not intended to.

Read: They don't bother. xD I really don't care that all the little details don't match, but "Remember that all texts are biased" is such an obvious handwave.

Could the author just mean "bolt-action rifle"?

Considering this is 40k, it would seem an odd "typo" to make.

Of course, it could also be a bolt-action bolter?

 Lynata wrote:


Of course, it could also be a bolt-action bolter?

... mind blown.

they do talk about bolters made specifically for non astartes in the books,

so likely just a IG version of the normal bolter

but we have las rifles, carbines, PDW's, and then the various Mk's of each of those, as well as all the various auto/stubber guns with various marks as well.

lots of patterns of all the weapons abound really,

functionally it would just be a bolter that is better fitted to be used by a normal human