Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

 Ryan_A wrote:

 Paradigm wrote:
The only problem with relying on non-medusa arty for tank busting is that it's not AP1 or 2, so you're fishing for 6s with low-ROF weapons, or just stripping HP. While I won't deny the advantage that a good immobilise or weapon destroy will bring, it's not the best return on investment. For tank-busting, I tend to go for kitted out Vanquishers, melta veterans or DS stormies, as arty is just better at anti-infantry 9/10 times.

Hmm, I dont know, I know a lot of people use the Vanquisher as AT, but its Str 8 Ap2. I would rather have Str 10 and have a regular roll on the damage table, then have str 8 and a roll +1 on the damage table. Of course you could also give the vanquisher a lascannon, but still, I think the manticore is better, since it has 1-3 str 10 shots that will end up hitting something. The lascannon Vanquisher on average will have 1 hit, which is about the same as the manticore, except the manticore has 10str and the vanquisher has Ap2, the big difference is the manticore can decimate infantry as well. I think they have about the same chance to destroy a tank, but the manticore can really hurt infantry as well as shoot from cover.

EDIT: But I do agree abut the melta vets and DS stormies.

The thing to remember is that the Vanquisher not only has AP2 but also 2d6 for armour pen, giving at an average roll of S8+7, for a total of 15. In other words, you'll pen AV 14 more often than not, and then have twice the chance of rolling an 'explodes' result than the Manticore. Add in a Lascannon and either MM or PC sponsons and this tank can put serious hurt on any tank or MC, and also do a number on MEQ/TEQ and other small squads.

Manticores are superb anto-horde weapons, as you say, so really, using them to shoot a tank is actually a poor decision unless you have no other targets or get a perfect shot (and by that I mean you're hitting at least 2 vehicles multiple times). Hence, it's actually a better choice to bring some dedicated AT as then the manticore can focus on doing what is does best, pasting anything not in power armour.

@Silverthorne: I see your point about the power weapons, but I tend to prefer them in more mobile squads that will be advancing with melta or flamer, rather than static LC squads. I'd generally rather take the melta than a PW in this type of setup as you then have a great deterrent against anything relying on vehicles or a high armour save to reach assault. The melta will shoot once, and the PW will hit swing once, the difference is that the melta can do damage before the assault, potentially saving a few more guardsmen, whereas by the time the PW is swinging, the enemy have already done the damage they are going to.

 Barksdale wrote:

 BlkTom wrote:


Totally disagree. Scatter alone makes it to unreliable for the points your spending. The only way to make up for scatter it to mass arty, and when you spend 500pts on arty to kill one 150pt vehicle, your wasting your time and resources.

It's not as bad as you think. Even if you scatter, any part of the template can hit a hull for a full strength hit. Plus with ordnance barrage you are auto hitting side armour, plus you get 2d6 pick the highest for armour penetration, so you get almost always get a pen. The only downsides are that the Manticore and Bassy are ap4/ap3 and can't target fliers, but they are still solid choices to support your other anti vehicle weapons, and can target infantry as well. Run the numbers, the probabilities make them solid choices.

@Ryan_A
No problems, it is your choice. As long as you understand the risks involved, I am doing my job by giving you advice that is making you aware of that risk.

@Barksdale and Ryan_A
Actually I was discussing it with a friend of mine who feels the same way you do about artillery. He didn't know about the blast weapon rule on page 73 BRB, I didn't realize how much IG artillery had Barrage (Barrage auto hits side armor) because I just don't use it. His little trick is to put one Griffin in each unit of Artillery with Barrage and fire the Griffin first because it can re-roll scatter. Then because all weapons in the unit are Barrage, he uses the big guns to go off of the Griffin's marker so the scatter distance doesn't matter. He also sets up his artillery so the Griffin is up front to die first because of how cheap it is. I am not sure if all Barrage weapons link like that, but I have heard of similar tactics involving a mortar in a CCS with a Master of Ordnance and firing the Mortar first and linking the MMO pie plate off of it... so he is probably doing it right. Good luck on finding a Griffin model though.

As for it's effectiveness, I feel to make it effective your building your list around Artillery. That is a valid tactic in 40k is to spam a aspect of your list and overwhelm your opponent. It would be like building a IG list but having ONE Basilisk and then depending on that Basilisk to be effective and kill it's points. One might not be effective, but the more you have, the more effective they will be.

Edit: Oh, forgot to add in that no template or marker weapon can effect flyers that are zooming anyways.

 BlkTom wrote:

 Barksdale wrote:

 BlkTom wrote:


Totally disagree. Scatter alone makes it to unreliable for the points your spending. The only way to make up for scatter it to mass arty, and when you spend 500pts on arty to kill one 150pt vehicle, your wasting your time and resources.

It's not as bad as you think. Even if you scatter, any part of the template can hit a hull for a full strength hit. Plus with ordnance barrage you are auto hitting side armour, plus you get 2d6 pick the highest for armour penetration, so you get almost always get a pen. The only downsides are that the Manticore and Bassy are ap4/ap3 and can't target fliers, but they are still solid choices to support your other anti vehicle weapons, and can target infantry as well. Run the numbers, the probabilities make them solid choices.

@Ryan_A
No problems, it is your choice. As long as you understand the risks involved, I am doing my job by giving you advice that is making you aware of that risk.

@Barksdale and Ryan_A
Actually I was discussing it with a friend of mine who feels the same way you do about artillery. He didn't know about the blast weapon rule on page 73 BRB, I didn't realize how much IG artillery had Barrage (Barrage auto hits side armor) because I just don't use it. His little trick is to put one Griffin in each unit of Artillery with Barrage and fire the Griffin first because it can re-roll scatter. Then because all weapons in the unit are Barrage, he uses the big guns to go off of the Griffin's marker so the scatter distance doesn't matter. He also sets up his artillery so the Griffin is up front to die first because of how cheap it is. I am not sure if all Barrage weapons link like that, but I have heard of similar tactics involving a mortar in a CCS with a Master of Ordnance and firing the Mortar first and linking the MMO pie plate off of it... so he is probably doing it right. Good luck on finding a Griffin model though.

As for it's effectiveness, I feel to make it effective your building your list around Artillery. That is a valid tactic in 40k is to spam a aspect of your list and overwhelm your opponent. It would be like building a IG list but having ONE Basilisk and then depending on that Basilisk to be effective and kill it's points. One might not be effective, but the more you have, the more effective they will be.

Edit: Oh, forgot to add in that no template or marker weapon can effect flyers that are zooming anyways.

Thanks for the info and the strategy. I actually purchased another Basilisk to go along with my two manticores. I am not sure if I am going to get another Basi, since with an average of 6 pie plates a turn, 2 on 3 separate targets should be enough. IF I am using the AP 3 on the basi, then chances are I am attacking MeQ, which means they wont have too many guys anyway, no need to shoot em with 3 large blast instead of just 2, would rather spend those 125 points on something else.

Well since Manticores and Basilisks can't be in the same squad (1 Manticore per Heavy slot), you can't use that tactic anyways. You would need to be in a squadron to use the tactic described. I feel that one lone Basilisk will not do much for you. At that point you would be better off getting a third Manticore.

 BlkTom wrote:
Well since Manticores and Basilisks can't be in the same squad (1 Manticore per Heavy slot), you can't use that tactic anyways. You would need to be in a squadron to use the tactic described. I feel that one lone Basilisk will not do much for you. At that point you would be better off getting a third Manticore.

One of us is not understanding eachother. I bought ANOTHER basilisk, so now I have two. I also have two manticores. My plan was to run two manticores (2 HS slots) and 2 Basilisks (1 HS slot) and I thought I may get a griffon for the 2 basilisks to make 2 Basilisks 1 Griffon (1 HS slot).

Yup, I took it as you had only one. Yeah, the Griffon combo seems pretty good.

Good luck!

watch out for people with baseball bats.

almost every one i know thinks IG players are things that generally cant be mention in G group

@BlkTom:
Q. If you have a Master of Ordnance and a Heavy Weapons Team
with a mortar in the same unit, does the multiple barrage rule take
precedence or does the Master of Ordnance's special scatter rule
over-rule this? (p31)
A. The Master of Ordnance’s special scatter rule takes
precedence and the two fire independently of each other (but
both must still fire at the same target).

from the Guard FAQ, near the top of page 4 left side

He could however order himself to "Bring it Down!" if targeting a vehicle and twin-link himself. Better than the mortar thing and it's legal.

Another thing to remember is that vehicles can move and shoot ordnance in 6th, only infantry have to stand still. So keep them moving in case of assaults!

Don't the Marine artillery hard-counter chimera based guard artillery?

Side AV10 vs multiple str6 hits; Dead tanks

High str shots vs 2+/3+/3+ cover? Not so dead Thunderfires?

Marine TFCs can be a pain, which is why they should be prioritised as targets. Also remember that the techmarine manning the cannon has one wound, so if you can get the right angle with an AP2 shot, he's going down. This is where plasma stormies would be amazingly helpful as they could drop in behind and take him out. Barrage sniping could also work here. You'd need luck (or a deathstrike ) to get past the 2+ save, but if you did the cannon is useless.

Sounds like a job for Marbo!

 portugus wrote:
@BlkTom:
Q. If you have a Master of Ordnance and a Heavy Weapons Team
with a mortar in the same unit, does the multiple barrage rule take
precedence or does the Master of Ordnance's special scatter rule
over-rule this? (p31)
A. The Master of Ordnance’s special scatter rule takes
precedence and the two fire independently of each other (but
both must still fire at the same target).

from the Guard FAQ, near the top of page 4 left side

He could however order himself to "Bring it Down!" if targeting a vehicle and twin-link himself. Better than the mortar thing and it's legal.

Another thing to remember is that vehicles can move and shoot ordnance in 6th, only infantry have to stand still. So keep them moving in case of assaults!

Thanks Portugus! I don't run the combo so I am not real familiar with it. I am a Lascannon CCS type guy.

Infantry are the scoring models anyways, so if at the end of the game your opponent has 3 tanks left but no inf he looses. You kill tanks so they don't kill you. what if you had your arty only go after infantry and put las cannons in all your infantry units you had points for.

Watch out for multi level ruins. If your opponent puts objectives on the ground floor he can safely ignore your barrages which can only hit the top floor (that the center of the hole is over)

Apparently you are safer on the ground floor of a flimsy ruin than in firestorm redoubt when your opponent has a Deathstrike Vortex Missile