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 chris_valera wrote:

 Steve steveson wrote:
No, but if you read out whole sections of the book she/her publishing company would. It is a question of where the line is.

There is no line, it is clearly a free speech issue.

If GW cares that much, they should clamp down on rumors.

--Chris
www.chrisvalera.com

It has nothing at all to do with free speech.

GW ARE trying to do something about rumours. This. Wether or not they are doing the right thing is a different matter.

Unfortunately it is very difficult to stop books getting out. Note how we almost never see images of minis from the studio. We always see books. I would hazard a guess this is because GW staff are not the problem. It is wherever they get the books printed in India/China.

They are not the only company that dose not release things until they are ready. And I don't blame them TBH. People are STILL complaining about there being sisters models ready because some sculpts were seen 2-3 years ago.

I do think they could be more open, but people would still complain just as much.

Would they?

I don't remember people complaining so much 5 years ago, before GW went crazy ape control freak on their new release information.

Well, I wasn't planning on having my inaugural Dakka post be a rant, but here it comes.

First, my perspective is that I am 26 and am getting back into the game now after abandoning it 10-odd years ago when I wanted to spend money on other things and cared what others thought of me (now I'm a married working man and don't give a gak). I didn't come to this decision all at once, and I spent a lot of time on a lot of sites to gauge my level of passion for it and basically see if I wanted to spend oodles of money and time on 40k again. In the end I decided to take the plunge, but as a financial journalist, I am constantly amazed at how bad GW's business plan is and this is a great example of it.

I listen to 40k Radio, and podcasts like that were instrumental in getting me interested in the hobby again. Also, in the podcast in question, the hosts were repeatedly stopping themselves to say that they were trying to not give everything away and they encouraged everyone to buy the codices, etc. When points costs were mentioned it was generally in the context of, "This relic is awesome, but it costs 50 points. You could go with X instead of that, is it really worth it?" This is the realm of tactica where I really don't think you can have a discussion without points costs, and in the end it seems like the real question here is "Could you just listen to the podcast rather than buy the codex?" and the answer is definitely no.

But this gets to a much more fundamental problem about GW's products. I've literally spent just a month inundating myself with all of this again and it's clear how much negativity there is out there towards GW. Some of this is petty griping, but a lot of it is a product of just awful strategy by management overall -- crap PR, no(?) growth strategy, and a reactionary view towards the internet and global commerce.

I could speak reams about these problems, but I'll limit it to codices and the rulebook -- they should be free in the first place.

Or maybe not free, but GW should at least not be trying to make money on codices, which it is evidently doing. This is just plain stupid from a business perspective.

The rulebook and a codex are the most basic things you need to play the game. Therefore, anyone in my position is going to have to spend $100+ just to buy the latest edition of books (that I already bought years ago) in order for me to get going so I can give GW more of my money. With the new allies system, which is obviously designed to get gamers to buy more from other armies, I also have to spend $30-$50 just to have the tools necessary to DECIDE if I might want a detachment of them.

Essentially, what GW is doing is putting up barriers to consumers who want to buy their core product -- miniatures. I guarantee you that if the codices were free or cheap (you could even do a digital demo sort of thing where everything is up on the site for a limited time) then more people would be buying some of the new miniatures or thinking about using an Imperial Fists detachment because they have cool rules, no matter what army they play. Instead, they make people fork over a bunch of money before that person can decide whether to make a much larger investment in miniatures, and any third party drumming up excitement about the new stuff gets slapped with a C&D for revealing too much.

In my mind, the basic guts of the codex and rules should just be free or very cheap for everyone to check out and allow everyone to dabble in a bit of every army. If you want all the fluff, artwork and frills, then you can buy a hardcopy version of it, but at a much lower price than what they have right now. Plain and simply, GW needs to understand that they are a gaming and miniature manufacturing company, not a publishing house, and they aren't going to make their margins in books (no one is these days). They should look at it like video game companies do. The Xbox 360 loses Microsoft at least $100 per unit, but they know they will make that back with their huge margins on the games. It's the same with cell phones and apps. Smart companies don't try to make money on the product that serves as the gateway to other products, otherwise you're keeping a lot of potential customers at the door.

Also, as many others have mentioned, their strategy of going after bloggers and forums discussing rumors and stuff is similarly stupid. Most companies are spending millions to try and get people to talk about their product on the internet, because once they get that conversation going then it is free marketing the rest of the way. Does GW think it is the only smart company in the world and the rest are fools by engaging their fans and consumers? Their retail strategy is just as bad but that is a rant for a different time.

Anyone still reading? Anyone still here? Thanks for putting up with my rant, probably the first of many.

 TheNightWillEnd wrote:
In my mind, the basic guts of the codex and rules should just be free or very cheap for everyone to check out and allow everyone to dabble in a bit of every army. If you want all the fluff, artwork and frills, then you can buy a hardcopy version of it, but at a much lower price than what they have right now.

Quite a few of GWs competitors are doing this (I know I have been reading rules for all the factions mine can ally with in Dystopian Wars while trying to decide how best to expand my collection), but GW seems to be getting WORSE at this rather than better. Not only did the move to hardback reinforce the barriers but the supplements don't help. Ideally in GWs world you'll have a $120 core rulebook, an $84 codex, an $84 supplement and a $84 allied codex (aussie prices suck).

Guess which company is in the process of expanding it's existing ranges, adding new factions and working on whole new systems and which is bleeding sales.

 TheNightWillEnd wrote:
Well, I wasn't planning on having my inaugural Dakka post be a rant, but here it comes.

Oh, don't worry, it's a time-honored first post tradition. Welcome to Dakka!

Also, the bulk of your post basically just describes the business model of mantic games. See this link: http://www.manticgames.com/free-rules.html

A lot of other companies do this as well because they want to drive mini sales rather than book sales and reduce the overall "get started with our stuff" cost.

 scarletsquig wrote:
Also, the bulk of your post basically just describes the business model of mantic games.

Yeah, GW tries to sell their miniatures by showing them only one week in advance. Mantic tries to sell their miniatures by showing them only months after they got the cash (kickstarter, preorder), for obvious reasons

 Kroothawk wrote:

Yeah, GW tries to sell their miniatures by showing them only one week in advance. Mantic tries to sell their miniatures by showing them only months after they got the cash (kickstarter, preorder), for obvious reasons

Though they both boil down to much the same logic.

Miniatures sell best in a brief time-window when they are "hot" and the hype is up.

"Regular sales" of just their "regular assortment" that isn't currently getting the limited-time blockbuster treatment (whether through Kickstarter or "home-made") is increasingly irrelevant to both companies (and most others too).

I suppose the logical next step is for mini companies to both cut out the Kickstarter-fees and to stop with non-limited back-logs of "old" miniatures in the inventory, and simply do continuous sequential "limited-time-only" splash-releases on a "Kickstarter-like" website of their own.

 Zweischneid wrote:

"Regular sales" of just their "regular assortment" that isn't currently getting the limited-time blockbuster treatment (whether through Kickstarter or "home-made") is increasingly irrelevant to both companies (and most others too).

And then there's PP, who tells you three months in advance everything they're releasing.

How far in advance do FFG reveal what's in each X Wing wave? Doesn't seem to be harming their sales, whatever it is.

 Riquende wrote:
How far in advance do FFG reveal what's in each X Wing wave? Doesn't seem to be harming their sales, whatever it is.

We know the Imperial Aces expansion is coming as well as the blockade runner and rebel transport. We have known about all three for what, 4-6x the length of GWs window from announcement to release already and I don't think they will hit any time soon since the last wave hit like a month or two ago.

 Kilkrazy wrote:
I don't remember people complaining so much 5 years ago, before GW went crazy ape control freak on their new release information.

Those some spiffy rose-tinted glasses you've got on there, Kilkrazy. People have been complaining unceasingly about GW since the early 90s. I bought the first edition of Talisman for $12 when it was circulating then GW upped the price to $20 and I was like, "Wut?" (I needed to replace a bunch of cards). Other complaint generators include, moving from two Rhinos to one in the box, the plastic Land Raider disappearing, and constant price inflation as well as being priced waaaay above competitors at the time. Yes, there was as much complaining back in the day as there is now. The only real difference is that GW had actual content in the WD and they weren't doing all this secrecy trash. Other than that, it's always been the same company.

 Zweischneid wrote:

 Kroothawk wrote:

Yeah, GW tries to sell their miniatures by showing them only one week in advance. Mantic tries to sell their miniatures by showing them only months after they got the cash (kickstarter, preorder), for obvious reasons

Though they both boil down to much the same logic.

Miniatures sell best in a brief time-window when they are "hot" and the hype is up.

I'm sorry, I don't buy that (both literally and figuratively)

I've been suggesting for a while now that GWs behaviour is very similar to a film or game studio when they know, or suspect, they have a bit of a turkey on their hands ie they release with a degree of fanfare, but with little or no opportunity for critical exposure. If I'm right, then this would suggest they have little confidence in the product they're manufacturing.

This could also explain their rather heavy handed legal approach, it is often those that feel they are in a weak or undermined position who are the most aggressive (ask anyone who works in retail and deals with customer complaints)

I'd suggest that if the models were truly amazing, something which FW proves GW have access to the talent to achieve, then people would buy things because they had to have them, and that wouldn't change regardless of how long those models had been available (assuming said person didn't already own them)

I know I'm not alone in having a mental shopping list of awesome stuff I want that far exceeds my buying power, but while some items drop off that list after a day or a week, others stay because they really speak to me and still get me excited about owning them, potentially even years after release.

I've often accused Kirby of milking GW as his retirement fund, but as time goes by, I'm beginning to feel that more and more of their behaviour is more appropriately explained by them knowing that their market position is under pressure, and their response to this is to both become more insular on one hand, while coming out swinging with the other.

Not the way I'd do it, but it does seem to fit.

 Riquende wrote:
How far in advance do FFG reveal what's in each X Wing wave? Doesn't seem to be harming their sales, whatever it is.

Well, that game only is a year old (e.g. similar time-frame to DreadBall, DZC, etc..), and we don't even know if FFG will want to (or can) turn that game into a sustained 5, 10 or even 20 year business.

 Breotan wrote:

 Kilkrazy wrote:
I don't remember people complaining so much 5 years ago, before GW went crazy ape control freak on their new release information.

Those some spiffy rose-tinted glasses you've got on there, Kilkrazy. People have been complaining unceasingly about GW since the early 90s. I bought the first edition of Talisman for $12 when it was circulating then GW upped the price to $20 and I was like, "Wut?" (I needed to replace a bunch of cards). Other complaint generators include, moving from two Rhinos to one in the box, the plastic Land Raider disappearing, and constant price inflation as well as being priced waaaay above competitors at the time. Yes, there was as much complaining back in the day as there is now. The only real difference is that GW had actual content in the WD and they weren't doing all this secrecy trash. Other than that, it's always been the same company.

People may have been complaining unceasingly but in the past GW was growing as a company. They aren't any more but their competition is.

Saying that people have always been complaining might sound like a good reason to dismiss this complaining but the numbers tell a very different tale.

 Zweischneid wrote:

 Riquende wrote:
How far in advance do FFG reveal what's in each X Wing wave? Doesn't seem to be harming their sales, whatever it is.

Well, that game only is a year old (e.g. similar time-frame to DreadBall, DZC, etc..), and we don't even know if FFG will want to (or can) turn that game into a sustained 5, 10 or even 20 year business.

The facts of that statement are incontrovertible, but the statement itself is entirely irrelevant.

Firstly, FFG has already taken a number of titles into multiple year lifespans, so they clearly know enough about their business to repeat that, secondly because I fail to see how players of one game getting excited over new releases for the game they enjoy doesn't translate to another, purely because one game has been out for a longer period of time?

The life span of X-wing is dictated by a licence agreement, which I would guess ranges from 3-5 years.

I would expect new unit releases to reduce as the end of the licence nears and pick up when they agree to increase the licence next period - Mickey needs some new ear warmers!

But none of this is relevant to the thread?

 Breotan wrote:

 Kilkrazy wrote:
I don't remember people complaining so much 5 years ago, before GW went crazy ape control freak on their new release information.

Those some spiffy rose-tinted glasses you've got on there, Kilkrazy. People have been complaining unceasingly about GW since the early 90s. I bought the first edition of Talisman for $12 when it was circulating then GW upped the price to $20 and I was like, "Wut?" (I needed to replace a bunch of cards). Other complaint generators include, moving from two Rhinos to one in the box, the plastic Land Raider disappearing, and constant price inflation as well as being priced waaaay above competitors at the time. Yes, there was as much complaining back in the day as there is now. The only real difference is that GW had actual content in the WD and they weren't doing all this secrecy trash. Other than that, it's always been the same company.

Yes, people have always complained about price increases, the decline of White Dwarf and the lack of squats. They didn't use to complain about C&Ds to blogs, copyright cases, lack of new release info, tournaments being cancelled and the like, because those things weren't happening.

The complaints about White Dwarf seem to have stopped, probably because no-one on DakkaDakka bothers to read it any more.

 scarletsquig wrote:

 TheNightWillEnd wrote:
Well, I wasn't planning on having my inaugural Dakka post be a rant, but here it comes.

Oh, don't worry, it's a time-honored first post tradition. Welcome to Dakka!

Also, the bulk of your post basically just describes the business model of mantic games. See this link: http://www.manticgames.com/free-rules.html

A lot of other companies do this as well because they want to drive mini sales rather than book sales and reduce the overall "get started with our stuff" cost.

The business model of Mantic is to do everything they wished GW would have allowed them to do, and surprise surprise, it has been a pretty significant success. It just astounds me that GW shoved those people out of the door only to see them set up shop across the street and chew into the company's market share. And for all intents and purposes, Mantic is immune to legal hassling from Games Workshop. Not only does Mantic have money, but it is a practical impossibility to take a spurious suit against a man who used to run the design studio where the allegedly infringed artwork was created.

"Well, let me tell you my first hand experience about Games Workshop, its policies, its contracts with artists, and describe for you what is in fact protected expression in artistic works of my own creation, tell you precisely what sources I did in fact consult to create those works, and provide my expert opinion about why my products do not infringe."

weeble1000 wrote:


The business model of Mantic is to do everything they wished GW would have allowed them to do, and surprise surprise, it has been a pretty significant success. It just astounds me that GW shoved those people out of the door only to see them set up shop across the street and chew into the company's market share. And for all intents and purposes, Mantic is immune to legal hassling from Games Workshop. Not only does Mantic have money, but it is a practical impossibility to take a spurious suit against a man who used to run the design studio where the allegedly infringed artwork was created.

"Well, let me tell you my first hand experience about Games Workshop, its policies, its contracts with artists, and describe for you what is in fact protected expression in artistic works of my own creation, tell you precisely what sources I did in fact consult to create those works, and provide my expert opinion about why my products do not infringe."

You call selling products sight-unseen at a super deep discount which is equally reliant on 'removing critical thought' from the purchase and then producing substandard sculpts out of shoddy material in a poorly casted way 'different' from GW?

Both companies don't have a product which withstands critical thought and suffers from having more time to investigate and reason decisions. GW suffers from previews because they don't want you to put off buying this months release in favor for next months release. Mantic suffers from having terrible consistency and art direction and hiding models months after they are finished being sculpted because they don't want people to see how bad they are and are afraid people will change their minds. I have yet to find people in real life who play mantic games or were happy with the models they got from any kickstarter from them. I am sure they exist, but they just don't seem to be real life people and the internet is an echo chamber of fanbois and shills.

PP is the respectable company. They make products, they share greens and WIPs, they let people know months in advanced and make models which customers can choose to buy or not buy with all the information available to them, and they *STILL* sell products. They support the models with a good game. This is the 'make a product people want and you will sell it.'

Mantic and GW both rely on tricking customers and removing critical thought to increase sales and it works for them so they keep doing it. People get mad but obviously not enough to impact their sales so why change? Dumb people's money is equally as good as smart people's money so if someone is going to buy an army they don't want due to the 'hype' and then buy a second army 4 months later because it is 'what they really wanted' why change to a model which allows someone to compare and buy less product?

I'm not sure if keeping future releases under wraps to try and keep people interested in the stuff you're releasing today really qualifies as "tricking people". Not compared to, say, getting people to pour their money into kickstarters for unseen products.

I liked the 40k radio podcasts preview episodes and now I'm sad if they stop.

I buy all of the 40k codecies anyway, so it's not like they're stopping a sale in my book.

GW can be lame sometimes.

weeble1000 wrote:
The business model of Mantic is to do everything they wished GW would have allowed them to do, and surprise surprise, it has been a pretty significant success.

I wouldn't call a company that is jumping from kickstarter to kickstarter with barely money to finish the job properly "a pretty significant success". There is a reason why noone in Germany wants to distribute Mantic anymore, with one distributor for Dreadball boxes left.

yeah,
Like Beasts and CrapterHouse... these guys say they love 40K yet they ignore the rules set down by GW.

So basically more people doing what they know they shouldn't do.
Then complaining when GW tells them to stop.

Panic...

 Bull0 wrote:
I'm not sure if keeping future releases under wraps to try and keep people interested in the stuff you're releasing today really qualifies as "tricking people". Not compared to, say, getting people to pour their money into kickstarters for unseen products.

Of course it is.

Ask anyone who bought a codex a couple of weeks before an update, or bought the 5th edition rulebook the month prior (there is a specific example on my local GW FB page of this, the managers response was "hey, all the pictures and fluff are still great!")

Ok, totally new products probably get a bye in this case, but keeping schtum about updates and still selling the soon to be outdated stuff, while simultaneously shrugging your shoulders when people look for some sort of concession for it, is what if it isn't deceptive?

At least with KS, you're aware you're taking a risk with your cash, and are making an informed decision on whether the project is worth the risk based in the creators track record, renders, greens, concept art etc. Applying the rule of caveat emptor, when that rule is integral to how KS functions, is far from dishonest, and just providing you with all the relevant information.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Panic wrote:
yeah,
Like Beasts and CrapterHouse... these guys say they love 40K yet they ignore the rules set down by GW.

So basically more people doing what they know they shouldn't do.
Then complaining when GW tells them to stop.

Panic...

Except in both those cases there is substantial doubt in whether either party was actually doing anything wrong.

So, yeah, except that.

Businesses don't have to follow the rules set down by GW. They have to follow the rules set down by the law.

 chris_valera wrote:

 Steve steveson wrote:
No, but if you read out whole sections of the book she/her publishing company would. It is a question of where the line is.

There is no line, it is clearly a free speech issue.

If GW cares that much, they should clamp down on rumors.

--Chris
www.chrisvalera.com

Your right to free speech ends at the point in which you are financially harming a company, like reading off all the points and rules of a codex.

nkelsch wrote:
I have yet to find people in real life who play mantic games or were happy with the models they got from any kickstarter from them. I am sure they exist, but they just don't seem to be real life people and the internet is an echo chamber of fanbois and shills.

PP is the respectable company. They make products, they share greens and WIPs, they let people know months in advanced and make models which customers can choose to buy or not buy with all the information available to them, and they *STILL* sell products. They support the models with a good game. This is the 'make a product people want and you will sell it.'

Dunno, Mantic Games (DreadBall, Kings of War, soon Deadzone) is very popular around here.

Are the models great? No, not really.

But the games are mostly fun and, perhaps even more importantly, Mantic Games did a hell of a job creating tournaments, community, etc.. , at least on the Island.

To mirror your sentiment, I have yet to find a real human that ever played a PP game. I know they are popular, even the 2nd most popular miniatures-game before X-Wing came along, but I don't think I've ever seen a life Warmahorde model outside a hobby-store display.

Regional caveats and all that. (where, to be fair, I would say the most popular Wargame in my neighborhood is actually SAGA atm... hardly a global competitor

 azreal13 wrote:

 Bull0 wrote:
I'm not sure if keeping future releases under wraps to try and keep people interested in the stuff you're releasing today really qualifies as "tricking people". Not compared to, say, getting people to pour their money into kickstarters for unseen products.

Of course it is.

Ask anyone who bought a codex a couple of weeks before an update, or bought the 5th edition rulebook the month prior (there is a specific example on my local GW FB page of this, the managers response was "hey, all the pictures and fluff are still great!")

Ok, totally new products probably get a bye in this case, but keeping schtum about updates and still selling the soon to be outdated stuff, while simultaneously shrugging your shoulders when people look for some sort of concession for it, is what if it isn't deceptive?

*edit* No, I've totally misread what you were saying, I get it. Yeah, it would be suck to buy a codex only to see the update go up for preorder a few weeks later. They probably shouldn't do that gak. It can't happen that frequently though. Be a pretty large coincidence for someone to buy into an army only to get a totally out-of-the-blue codex update weeks later.

 Kroothawk wrote:

weeble1000 wrote:
The business model of Mantic is to do everything they wished GW would have allowed them to do, and surprise surprise, it has been a pretty significant success.

I wouldn't call a company that is jumping from kickstarter to kickstarter with barely money to finish the job properly "a pretty significant success". There is a reason why noone in Germany wants to distribute Mantic anymore, with one distributor for Dreadball boxes left.

Hey now, Mantic was doing just fine before it started this Kickstarter crap. I don't think a company like Mantic, PP, or GW needs to or should be doing a kickstarter. But that does not disguise the fact that Mantic is releasing the types of products GW was not interested in releasing at a price point GW was unwilling to sell at. That's all I'm saying.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Panic wrote:
yeah,
Like Beasts and CrapterHouse... these guys say they love 40K yet they ignore the rules set down by GW.

So basically more people doing what they know they shouldn't do.
Then complaining when GW tells them to stop.

Panic...

Oh my God. I expect this post has been responded to already, and I really shouldn't dignify it. But the "rules set down by GW" are not the same as the rules of the society we and GW live in; rules which GW attempts to use to enforce its own, different set of rules. There is a big problem with that.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 R3con wrote:

 chris_valera wrote:

 Steve steveson wrote:
No, but if you read out whole sections of the book she/her publishing company would. It is a question of where the line is.

There is no line, it is clearly a free speech issue.

If GW cares that much, they should clamp down on rumors.

--Chris
www.chrisvalera.com

Your right to free speech ends at the point in which you are financially harming a company, like reading off all the points and rules of a codex.

Unless the law says that such does not actually infringe any any exclusive right, and thus causes no harm for which one can seek to recover damages.

 R3con wrote:


Your right to free speech ends at the point in which you are financially harming a company, like reading off all the points and rules of a codex.

I don't remember anything in the 1st amendment about "except when it hurts companies financially".