Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

I'm really curious myself how everything will be released at retail. Surely not as chopped up as it is in the KS, right?

 cincydooley wrote:
I'm really curious myself how everything will be released at retail. Surely not as chopped up as it is in the KS, right?

Good question!

The more I think about it, the more dropping down to "OUTLAW" level makes sense.

Outlaw is where I'm at with a few extra add ons. LOVE the Lost Army idea.

weeble1000 wrote:
You release a product, if it sells well, you release an expansion.

KS is not a store, but it looks, walks, and sounds like a pre-order. And, since KS tells the creator how many expansions (or in this case add-ons) backers want, the creator knows how "well" the game is going to "sell". If KS backers don't indicate demand for the add-ons, that tells the creator -- and tells him better than the "trickle up" three-tier system -- how well the expansion's selling. And, of course, if the KS doesn't even reach funding, that tells the creator, well, that's that. On top of this, KS allows the creator to have the lump sum they can use to negotiate with manufacturers and printers. Supplies *like* customers with big wads of cash, and you can't get them with the relative trickle conventional retail sales provides. FFG's (not FFP's!) DOOM boardgame only sold enough base game copies to support one expansion set. A second one was ready for the printers but cancelled because the line -- at the time -- did not "sell well". Except now, DOOM and it's expansion go for $180 on eBay, showing demand for this OOP game. If FFG went the KS route and produced both expansion sets at the same time, DOOM fans would have two expansions, not one.

The whole point of KS is to lower risk. By lowering risk, KS lowers the barrier to entry for new products -- including more games by companies who could, in armchair business theory, use the current three-tier system. Without KS, these companies would not take the risk of manufacturing a game. Is there a good reason *not* take a lower risk route when one is available? Do you really want fewer games on the market? If you don't like this newfangled way of selling stuff, don't back the project.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 cincydooley wrote:
I'm really curious myself how everything will be released at retail. Surely not as chopped up as it is in the KS, right?

Maybe: http://stores.homestead.com/FlyingFrogProductions/Categories.bok?category=Fortune+and+Glory


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Phobos wrote:
It is pretty clear that this is just a pre order Kickstarter.

Why is this a problem?

Dark Darker Darkest was accused of being a pre-order and look what happened -- an incredibly short three month delivery time.

You might not be happy with this, but guess who was.

There was going to be a second Doom expansion? Damn.

Did they ever show off any prototype figures/ any information released? I'd assume on Board Game Geek, but I can't access it at work.

With the game now over half a million the town tiles are in, so you all can defend it from zombies, go rob the banks, or shoot each other to pieces in the town square.

Just don't aim for the mules and horses!

 highlord tamburlaine wrote:
There was going to be a second Doom expansion? Damn.

Did they ever show off any prototype figures/ any information released? I'd assume on Board Game Geek, but I can't access it at work.

With the game now over half a million the town tiles are in, so you all can defend it from zombies, go rob the banks, or shoot each other to pieces in the town square.

Just don't aim for the mules and horses!

A little OT (: but here's a little more about the send DOOM expansion: http://community.fantasyflightgames.com/index.php?/topic/34119-second-expansion/

IIRC, FFG released some card you could print out to allow handicaps (eg. "I'm too young to die"): http://www.fantasyflightgames.com/ffg_content/Doom/doommod1.pdf


Back to SoB (: Any info about the town board? Is it large enough to support a Savage Worlds Doomtown game? Between that pack mule (useful for FRPG games!) and a town square I may actually jump into this KS...

Thanks for the (slightly off topic) info.

All we know about the town is it expands gameplay in between missions.

There will be locations to visit, banks to rob, shootouts to hold... the usual western stuff. They haven't said much else about it.

There was also confirmation that we will have dog companion allies at some point further down the line. No word on what breeds.

eager to see the mini for the void sorcerer. If it's as cool as the concept, it will make a great chaos cult leader

Ugh. The KS comments on this one are obnoxious. Sure, there are some people who seem impossible to please, but it's becoming a very cult-like setting where anything but gushing praise is met with overwhelmingly cloying enthusiasm and shouting down.

Mention the words "mine" and "cart" together and you risk being lynched unless they're followed by "are the best thing since *insert sexual practice here*."

I get it that raw negativity can be unwelcome, but acting like FFP can just dust off its hands and say "yup, perfect solution, haters gonna hate" and walk off seems short sighted. A lot of people gave a lot of thorough and eloquently stated critique, and their response has basically been "you know what you guys need? The ones already getting duplicates of pretty much everything? MORE DUPLICATES!"

Ugh.

However, I will also preface my own hypocrisy and admit that the will of my group is weak and may get in on at least an outlaw tier. If they keep throwing what should be full expansions onto that thing, it might actually work out to save some cash compared to buying it all at retail.

I gotta be honest: the price of all those products from ceds link are pretty disconcerting.

On their website, 8 character miniatures will run you $15. Here, you get two for that.....

Hmmm....

To be fair, those are 28mm scale.

I believe these are 35mm scale.

Those extra 7mm are huge. HUGE. Like, three quarters of a centimeter HUUUUUGE!

So, looking into this a bit late... am I reading it right that you get almost all of the stretch goals with an Outlaw pledge?

 cincydooley wrote:
I gotta be honest: the price of all those products from ceds link are pretty disconcerting.

On their website, 8 character miniatures will run you $15. Here, you get two for that.....

Hmmm....

Those are just duplicate copies of the miniatures that come in the base game. Where as the character packs are new sculpts and also come with new rules and cards. They are also a larger scale as already pointed out.

Mantic have been charging $8 per unique 28mm sculpt in the Mars Attacks kickstarter but they only charge $15 for a duplicate copy of a Martian or us marine squad.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 spiralingcadaver wrote:
So, looking into this a bit late... am I reading it right that you get almost all of the stretch goals with an Outlaw pledge?

You get all the stretch goals with an outlaw pledge. The only thing you don't get are the addons which you can raise your pledge for if you see any you must have or purchase from the FFG store post release.

I suspect many of the smaller sets/expansions will be sold via the FFP website only.

Update #9

Oct 31, 2013
New Avatars! The Harginber's Den!
10 comments
7 likes

Hi Guys!

Thanks so much for the support on this project! Not just by backing it, but also sharing the project on Facebook and spreading the word! It is a big part of the reason that we are able to get more backers and unlock all of these Stretch Goals to enhance the game with new Hero Classes, Creatures, Variant Figures, Card Sets, and even new Worlds to explore!

We were excited to see that a few of you even created your own Shadows of Brimstone avatars! This is awesome! But, we also recognize that not everyone can make their own avatars. So, we've put together some cool Shadows of Brimstone Avatars to let backers show their support and help spread the word on Kickstarter and various social networks.












To use any of these, just right click on the image and "Save As" somewhere on your computer. Then set your Avatars on Kickstarter, Facebook, Twitter, etc. For Kickstarter, you can change your avatar by clicking on "Me" in the upper right corner of the page. Then select "Edit Settings" and Picture "Upload" to choose the new avatar art you saved to your computer.

Lastly, I'd like to show off another really cool illustration from the game. It's called "The Harbinger's Den" and it was done by Seattle artist, Brandon Gillam.



If you were paying close attention, you may have noticed that one of those avatars has art that we haven't shown yet. It's an incredible new illustration that I'll show off in the next update. Have a great Halloween, everyone!

Thanks,

Scott

Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Phobos wrote:
It is pretty clear that this is just a pre order Kickstarter.

Why is this a problem?

Dark Darker Darkest was accused of being a pre-order and look what happened -- an incredibly short three month delivery time.

You might not be happy with this, but guess who was.

Its a problem for a bunch of different reasons to a bunch of different people. First off there is the whole philosophical argument; Kickstarter should be used to kick start projects could not otherwise obtain traditional funding and using it as a pre order store flies in the face of that spirit.

It's also a problem for the customers in that they are going to be extremely demanding and expect tons of free stuff because it's pretty clear to see it for what it is. I am almost certain that this is a big part of the reason why there is such an outrage over the minecart stuff. Everyone is expecting a big haul at a killer price because at some level we all know it's there anyways. And it creates a problem for the customers because it changes your way of thinking about Kickstarters, but more on that later.

It's a problem for retailers who other wise be selling these games to the customers that are now buying them from a Kickstarter preorder store. There is already some under current of dislike of Kickstarters by retailers and distributors and this just pours fuel on the fire. And that leads us to

Its a problem for the company as well. If distributors snd retailers don't carry your product then your only market is going to be the people who got it from Kickstarter anyone that happens across your web store. It also creates a vicious cycle where your next Kickstarter has to top your last. And don't forget about all the customers that you're going to lose when they find out that they're not getting as good a deal as the people who were in the Kickstarter did and refuse to buy on that basis.

And lastly its a problem for all the small startup companies and games that truly do need Kickstarter to be funded. They can not afford to give away tons of free crap ( that has already been produced) as stretch goals and such. Here is where the other part of the customer
problem comes in. If people get used to these big mega preorder Kickstarters like bones 2 and this one it will color their perception towards what should be included in the Kickstarter. Look at all the trouble that Shadowsea and Rise of the Occulites are having because they aren't giving away everything and the kitchen sink.

Everyone is on a wild Kickstarter binge right now. I worry that we are going to overdo it and wake up with a bad hangover.

 Phobos wrote:

It's also a problem for the customers in that they are going to be extremely demanding and expect tons of free stuff because it's pretty clear to see it for what it is. I am almost certain that this is a big part of the reason why there is such an outrage over the minecart stuff. Everyone is expecting a big haul at a killer price because at some level we all know it's there anyways. It's also a problem for the customers because it changes your way of thinking about Kickstarters, but more on that later.

The expectation of free stuff isn't always the case though. Mierce's 2nd KS had very little free stuff, and still did over $250k USD. I know that's "paltry" compared to what some of the other companies have done, but it isn't a requirement for a successful KS.

It's also a problem for retailers who other wise be selling these games to the customers that are now buying them from a Kickstarter preorder store. There is already some under current of dislike of Kickstarters by retailers and distributors and this just pours fuel on the fire. And that leads us to

Its a problem for the company as well. If distributors snd retailers don't carry your product then your only market is going to be the people who got it from Kickstarter anyone that happens across your web store. It also creates a vicious cycle where your next Kickstarter has to top your last. And don't forget about all the customers that you're going to lose when they find out that they're not getting as good a deal as the people who were in the Kickstarter dId and refuse to buy on that basis.

Well that isn't true, really. There are plenty of examples of successful board game KS projects that have done plenty well at the retail level, Zombicide being the pinnacle example

And lastly its a problem for all the small startup companies and games that truly do need Kickstarter to be funded. They can not afford to give away tons of free cra p ( that has already been produced) as stretch goals and such. Here is where the other part of the customer
problem comes in. If people get used to these big mega preorder Kickstarters like bones 2 and this one it will color their perception towards what should be included in the Kickstarter. Look at all the trouble that Shadowsea and Rise of the Occulites are having because they aren't giving away everything and the kitchen sink.

Everyone is on a wild Kickstarter binge right now. I worry that we are going to overdo it and wake up with a bad hangover.

I'm not sure you can attribute their trouble at success with the lack of free stuff. Shadowsea is relatively expensive and in metal, with a limited market. It was still successful, though.

Rise of the Occulites, again, has a limited market due to the content. It isn't the big 3. There's no Zombies. There's no Cthulu. There's no Steampunk. It also has no applicablity to 40k, which can clearly help drive sales of a miniature game. Further, there's no large name attached to it. With all that being said, it's still at $200% funding, so I'd hardly call it "struggling."

Personally, I have no problem with larger, private companies using KS as a means for risk mitigation. I'd rather a company take risks with fringe projects on KS and fundraise there so that the failure of said fringe project didn't adversely affect their primary lines too much. And it's not like there's no risk for a larger company running a KS. There are HUGE reputational risks they can take for a poorly run KS (see: Wyrd's Through the Breach or CMON/Stuidio McVey w/ Sedition Wars).

The only burnout I see myself having with the projects is from my wallet. I really enjoy following and backing KS projects.

Without really getting into the weeds of it, Shadowsea barely funded and the Occulites might be at 200% but two of their big pledge levels were dependent upon reaching at least 45K.

At any rate it's too early to tell which one of us is going to be correct. Kickstarter is just beginning its heyday with miniatures and games and we're really about 5 years out from seeing how it affects the marketplace.

But I do completely agree with you that the only burn out I'm feeling right now is in my pocket! I'm more than happy to grab what I can now because ultimately I don't think it will be sustainable.

Back on topic, minecart gate notwithstanding the outlaw pledge looks very good. I may have to eat my words about not pledging for this campaign.

Yeah, I think I might have a problem.

Sure, Dwarven Forge should deliver next week (but that was only a couple hundred bucks for 3 sets) and most of my other backerage has been in the $1-50 range, which is generally 'fire and forget' for me.

But then there's big ticket stuff like the Robotech miniature game, which my friends and I got a little swept up in (mistakes were made), and as hard as I'm trying to put the reigns in on having more and more (not quite) disposable income just floating around for months or even years with little or nothing to show for it, at the same time new campaigns keep popping up and there's always a shiny song and dance and "ooooh, if I buy in now I could save like 30-60% off retail!"

It's not an easy balance to achieve. I swore after the Robotech one that I was done on big campaigns, all the moreso now that I'm watching Wyrd's RPG campaign continue to slide on past its due date without even an update to append in its place, and then a big name with what looks like an incredible product comes along and suddenly I'm fighting between resisting the urge to join in hardcore, at a reasonable level, or finding that cutoff point.

I think it'll take a really big flop or a big company bankrupting themselves or a simply massive bit of fraud to really shake things up, and I agree that it may be years in the making before we see this happen, and in the meantime things are going to keep growing and getting crazier.

First post updated with all the new stretch goals.

Pack Mule and expanded Frontier Town have been reached and we have just made it to the Female Law man variant (Sheriff), coming up next is the Dead Mans Bounty gear pack, followed by a new Bandido variant figure and a Void Sorcerer enemy.

Given the large number of variant figures and the new frontier town map tiles there has been a few hints towards using the variant figures to represent bandits / lawmen / bounty hunters defending or attacking the town. Some requests for a train heist / defending tile set were made but whilst they think it's a great idea, it doesn't look like it would be included in the Kickstarter.

ced1106 wrote:

You might not be happy with this, but guess who was.

Kickstarter is not supposed to be a pre-order system. Kickstarter is not supposed to approve projects that do not require the funding. But hey, if people want to do it, that's on them. I just think it is a terrible way to spend one's money, and bad for the hobby in the sense that Kickstarters like these draw attention away from 'legitimate' kickstarters for gaming projects that will never exist without the funding.

I also think the conditioning of expectations is the really big problem with these kickstarter projects. Kickstarter is on track to change the way the market behaves, which can hurt small existing miniatures companies that can't run a mega Kickstarter project and have trouble sustaining themselves when so many people are plowing funds into kickstarter projects designed to encourage impulsive purchasing. These kickstarters really jerk your chain. They are designed to, and this is one reason why we are seeing "minecartgate." The projects are designed to build temporary enthusiasm and encourage impulsivity. I think people pretty much understand this one some level, and so when a project seems to not give you what you believe you "deserve," it provokes a sharply negative reaction.

weeble1000 wrote:
Kickstarter is not supposed to be a pre-order system. Kickstarter is not supposed to approve projects that do not require the funding.

While I'm sure there are limits and controls in place, KS/Amazon also shave ~10% off the top for successful campaigns.

Call me cynical, but when a known company approaches them with the outline of what may very well be a million dollar+ campaign, I doubt they're quick to shoot it down.

That said, I do agree with you that there is a risk the super massive campaigns are going to continue to cause issues for the smaller/more realistic ones. What info we glean from the words of one creator don't necessarily have any bearing on the realities of another, and yet those 'facts' are quoted at each other back and forth constantly.

I think part of that will be managing expectations. If ones project is going to be smaller scale, it may become increasingly important to say that, to clearly indicate "look, we need the help, we are willing to cut you guys a deal, but we simply cannot sell product to backers at 75% off like some of the other campaigns do."

That said, one of the disadvantages of big, established companies running campaigns is that we already know their business model, to a degree. We know what they charge for small expansions, big expansions, where to find their products for significantly below the sticker price, etc. That works to their advantage in that they have a large and motivated fan base, but it also means those fans who are able to look at the numbers objectively will occasionally start tugging at loose threads.

Anyway, we're just up to 550k, so 15 more gear cards have been included. Next up, the Bandido 2 variant figure at 575k.

New addon up -

Rules-wise they've light, fun. Very Ameritrash. Haven't really had any issues with ambiguity, and on the few occasions when we have it's been easy enough to figure out something that everyone is still happy with that seems to fit their meaning.

Saw the above term used to describe FFP's other games in another thread, and have seen it tossed around lately about other games as well, but not being a member of the "board-gaming community" as it were, I have no idea what it means. Anybody out there who can clue me in?

A cursory bit of Google'ing led me to a thread on Boardgamegeek that gave a few responses. Here is one of them;

Ameritrash: games that revolve around a specific theme (usually fantasy or sci fi, and usually involving conflict) and where the game's mechanics are built to illustrate/recreate the 'real world' mechanics of that theme. Rules simplicity, perfect play balance, and short playing times are not necessary, if they get in the way of making the theme 'come to life.' Ameritrash games embrace some randomness and dice.

Euro: games that stress streamlined and clear mechanics. They usually have reasonable playing times, and don't stress conflict. They also don't stress random elements, least of all dice. The term "Eurosnoot" has come about due to some folks perception that fans of Euro games "look down" on other game types.

I've never heard of "eurosnoot", but I have friends who unironically use the term 'eurotrash', and who love some (self described) ameritrash games. Arkham Horror, Battlestar Galactica, several FFP games like Last Night on Earth and Fortune & Glory, etc.

Does The Warstore or Miniature Market carry Flying Frog's stuff?

If so, I think it is a no-brainer for me to drop down to Outlaw and wait and see on all these add-ons.

 Alpharius wrote:
Does The Warstore or Miniature Market carry Flying Frog's stuff?

If so, I think it is a no-brainer for me to drop down to Outlaw and wait and see on all these add-ons.

A cursory search indicates yes, and at a 30% discount.

Ah, thanks!

Looks like a 'wait and see' approach makes a lot more sense than the $475 Minecart!

Whilst some addons will be available elsewhere a lot will be exclusive to the FFP webstore so you won't be able to get them at a discount elsewhere so you should take that into account when calculating discounts (I think the majority will be available elsewhere though).

A look at the FFP web store indicates that yes, they do sell some web exclusive stuff.

But let's be real. What's more likely?

A) They have like 70 different individual miniatures, miniature packs and card packs.

or

2) They package like 80% of that stuff together in figure/card/tile small/medium sized box sets, with the possibility of an outright 3rd Big Box Set if this rabbit hole goes deep enough.

I mean, I agree that it's a bit of a gamble, and possible that some of this stuff will *only* be available from them at full retail MSRP... but it's far more likely that those pieces will be the exception, not the rule. Their FANG expansion, the LNOE expansions, etc, all lean towards "heres some figs, some cards, maybe a tile or upgraded mechanic" rather than "2 figures and 2 cards for $15!".