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 cincydooley wrote:
I'm not convinced.

This is the first time they've done any tooling for mutli part plastic miniatures.

I'm guessing it cost a lot more than they were expecting.

And a $25-50 margin per package may not even cover the cost of keeping their warehouse open.

There are lots of factors that figure into this. I think there's a lot of oversimplification going on.

*facepalm*

Here is what it says on their webstore:

NOW receive FREE shipping for all orders over $195 domestic OR International!!

And here is where you can get both games for just under $200.

From their webstore.

Which qualifies for 'free shipping'.

Meaning they can do BOTH BOXES for FREE SHIPPING ANYWHERE for $200.

And yet we're supposed to believe that doing it for $175 (which was given a year ago, so add potential interest) is an insurmountable task that is holding up all of the international orders.

Does not compute. Either they can do it for roughly that much, or they can't, but their own webstore is undercutting their shipping concerns. That extra $25 isn't an irrelevant sum, and the two waves of shipping is a big consideration as well, but that was on them to sort out with the business model, not to just blindly take our cash, sit on it for a year, and then say "oh noes, shipping is expensive, whatever will we dooooo?"

Edit 2: Hell, Cool Stuff Inc will do both boxes to Canada for under $180.

I empathize with the concerns they rightly have with Wave 2.

But Wave One should be covered just fine.

Hell, I just entered Australia into there. CSI will do both boxes to there for under $200. Quick, someone tell CSI they're about to lose their shirts shipping these boxes! Warn them!

Well I stand corrected.

I assumed the free shipping on the website was for their already existing product, not this.

My bad!

Still looking to move mine if anyone wants em.

Funnily enough, I'll have a pair of boxes to sell of my own.

Whenever they arrive.

Y'know, next year.

:-/

 Forar wrote:
Does not compute. Either they can do it for roughly that much, or they can't, but their own webstore is undercutting their shipping concerns. That extra $25 isn't an irrelevant sum, and the two waves of shipping is a big consideration as well, but that was on them to sort out with the business model, not to just blindly take our cash, sit on it for a year, and then say "oh noes, shipping is expensive, whatever will we dooooo?"

It's possible that another party is responsible for the web store. I know this is the case for another KS that I'm in. The KS creator ships the KS pledges -- and isn't including tracking -- while the webstore does.

The $175 KS level contains more than the two boxes, so they have more logistics to deal with, more stuff to ship, and a smaller amount of money for it. IMO, $25 is a fair amount of money.

Is anyone who's gone through an overseas KS still backing them? After reading the experiences of international backers, I'm pretty much no longer backing foreign KS, except for RAFM.

@cincy and others: If you're looking to sell your SoB pledge, post on BGG. I'm interested in trading for a pledge, myself.

So no one else has rec'd shipping notices yet?

T

ced1106 wrote:

 Forar wrote:
Does not compute. Either they can do it for roughly that much, or they can't, but their own webstore is undercutting their shipping concerns. That extra $25 isn't an irrelevant sum, and the two waves of shipping is a big consideration as well, but that was on them to sort out with the business model, not to just blindly take our cash, sit on it for a year, and then say "oh noes, shipping is expensive, whatever will we dooooo?"

It's possible that another party is responsible for the web store. I know this is the case for another KS that I'm in. The KS creator ships the KS pledges -- and isn't including tracking -- while the webstore does.

The $175 KS level contains more than the two boxes, so they have more logistics to deal with, more stuff to ship, and a smaller amount of money for it. IMO, $25 is a fair amount of money.

Is anyone who's gone through an overseas KS still backing them? After reading the experiences of international backers, I'm pretty much no longer backing foreign KS, except for RAFM.

@cincy and others: If you're looking to sell your SoB pledge, post on BGG. I'm interested in trading for a pledge, myself.

People will continue to back foreign Kickstarters as long as 1) there are exclusives they care about, and 2) there are still substantial discounts over eventual purchase price. They just won't have a very good time in the process.

As expensive and irritating as KS shipping can get, at least in the UK things will always work out quite a bit more expensive at retail, if they are even available. Remember that all US boardgames in the UK are imported anyway, are paying an additional 20% in tax, do not have their prices converted at a competitive rate (certainly worse than even Paypal's!) and either need $10+ worth of shipping from discounted online local retail, or are sold full price at physical retail. And we get lower stock allocations than the US, so things sell out here more quickly too - particularly little expansions of the type that Brimstone is packed with!

ced1106 wrote:
@cincy and others: If you're looking to sell your SoB pledge, post on BGG. I'm interested in trading for a pledge, myself.

I'll definitely post here and in other place. Does BGG have an actual 'for sale' section? I thought it was mostly just a trade system.

That said, for stuff this big and heavy, I'll probably be aiming to stick local for the time being. Cash in hand and no need to worry about things getting lost or wrecked in the mail is worth taking in a little less to me (not to mention no shipping costs, Ebay fees or Paypal fees).

* Easiest way is to browse the game's forum and look for any threads of gamers who missed out on the KS and want to buy a copy. Frex, Someone's posted a request to buy an Outlaw pledge.

http://boardgamegeek.com/boardgame/146791/shadows-brimstone-city-ancients

* Create a want / trade list then search for BGG'ers who are "Willing to Buy". I haven't used this feature in a long time, but ask around BGG. Or try: My Geek > Trades > Direct Matches.

Good luck!

Got my core sets yesterday.

Amazing game!

Minis are better than average, but not GW or PP quality by any means. Fit can sometimes be iffy, but detail seems ok to me.

Tile thickness seems nice. Cards are good quality. Character boards and reference sheets are on the thinner side.

D6 are lower end, but I imagine most of us have plenty of others to use instead if you want. D8 and Peril die are good quality, with Peril being done by Q-Workshop.

Books are nice quality, glossy, "magazine-style" pages. Content of the books is BRILLIANT. Great rules, extensive campaign system, beautiful pictures and even a short comic in each one!

If anyone has any burning questions, feel free to ask.

Lucky you!

I'm still waiting here in Massachusetts...

 Alex C wrote:
Got my core sets yesterday.

Amazing game!

Minis are better than average, but not GW or PP quality by any means. Fit can sometimes be iffy, but detail seems ok to me.

Tile thickness seems nice. Cards are good quality. Character boards and reference sheets are on the thinner side.

D6 are lower end, but I imagine most of us have plenty of others to use instead if you want. D8 and Peril die are good quality, with Peril being done by Q-Workshop.

Books are nice quality, glossy, "magazine-style" pages. Content of the books is BRILLIANT. Great rules, extensive campaign system, beautiful pictures and even a short comic in each one!

If anyone has any burning questions, feel free to ask.

This is great to hear. Reading between the lines a bit, it seems some around here have been disappointed with what they've gotten so hearing a (relatively) glowing report is nice. Thanks!

In my ideal world, they wrap up EU and US shipping this month, and finally get to "ROW" in November.

That's probably characteristically overly optimistic, however.

I've been very happy with my games. There is A LOT of stuff jammed in that box. Or both boxes, to be specific. And then there's all those extra red sprues if you got a mine cart.

I also somehow seemed to have misplaced the basic rulebook from one box. Good thing I got another!

One of the coolest aspects I think are the big cards with all their charts detailing the variety of events you can get yourselves in to.

It's going to be interesting to see what happens gameplay wise when we start seeing those objective/ lair rooms showing up from the add ons, as well as all the otherworlds. I'd imagine they'll include their own rulebooks and missions to go along with them. All those tile for the expansions makes me *REALLY* curious as to how those things are going to be packaged.

I'm starting to think wave 2 will grossly eclipse the two core games in terms of size, weight, and volume if you ended up getting a mine cart.

 Gomez wrote:

This is great to hear. Reading between the lines a bit, it seems some around here have been disappointed with what they've gotten so hearing a (relatively) glowing report is nice. Thanks!

Haha, that sounds directed at me

No reading between the lines necessary. The minis are incredibly underwhelming to me, and as one of the primary reasons I hopped in on the KS, its hard for me to justify keeping it.

In truth, I still have a significant number of unassembled minis from the two base sets because I didn't even want to assemble them anymore. Its not as disgusted and fed up as I was with Deadzone miniatures, but I was pretty darn disappointed. They're the worst on sprue plastic miniatures I own, and are on par with early 1990s GW plastics in regards to quality.

I also had two off set punch out sheets, which made me more frustrated.

The cards all look great, though, and the manuals are very nice.

highlord tamburlaine wrote:I'm starting to think wave 2 will grossly eclipse the two core games in terms of size, weight, and volume if you ended up getting a mine cart.

I expect to be alerted of the arrival of my Wave 2 stuff by the groaning of my UPS guy as his back starts to fail under the weight...

cincydooley wrote:The minis are incredibly underwhelming to me

I can see why some people won't like them. I'm happy with them. It will come down to personal tolerances and expectations.

 Alex C wrote:


I can see why some people won't like them. I'm happy with them. It will come down to personal tolerances and expectations.

I feel bad saying that, honestly, because I'm usually pretty tolerant of models in general, don't mind removing mould lines, etc.

I mean, they're certainly not Ice Age Mammals quality, but who can be

I think also if a lot of my stuff hadn't been displaced because of this tiny spawn and her barely used nursery, I'd find a spot to keep it

Well, if anyone wants to trade away any of their SoB stuff for some unloved boardgames, send me a PM along with your BGG want/trade list. Thanks!

Just got my set this evening. The rules are sound the game looks fun from what I have read but damn the miniatures are bland...

For details this soft I cannot figure out why these models require assembly.

As I understand it the assembly requirement is due to dynamic posing, not details.

High levels of detail in hard plastic, to my understanding, require a high-quality tool cut to a greater deal of precision - the higher quality, the more expensive. In addition, the 'depth' of detail is frequently not factored in when designing the models - you can get some lovely fine detail in CGI renders that will just not make it to the final model at all. Projects like Kingdom Death are still sacrificing some detail from the resin masters, and that's even with a ton of money and time being spent on every single tool!

You can have dynamic posing with boardgame PVC, the models just need to be pre-assembled in the factory - although I'd imagine the more parts you have, the more expensive each model becomes.

I assume that FFG decided that hard plastic on sprues was more desirable than pre-assembled PVC, either for logistics or cost. If they are going super-huge with this release (and releasing ~$1700 retail worth of a single product line would indicate tis), then they may be vindicated by the lower per-unit costs of hard plastic in the end.

Bioptic wrote:


I assume that FFG decided that hard plastic on sprues was more desirable than pre-assembled PVC, either for logistics or cost. If they are going super-huge with this release (and releasing ~$1700 retail worth of a single product line would indicate tis), then they may be vindicated by the lower per-unit costs of hard plastic in the end.

I think this is a good point, but it's just a tough sell for me when I've recently received both MYTH and Arcadia quest and will be getting Journey. When I look at the stuff I got with those, I see PVC models that are preassembled and have far greater detail.

And that leaves out the fact that, sadly, on some of the Shadows models, there are unfortunate fit issues with the plastic. The harbinger has a ton of gaps that need filling (which I don't mind doing, honest) that is simply not what I'm used to with HIPS style sprued plastic.

 Alex C wrote:
As I understand it the assembly requirement is due to dynamic posing, not details.

I'm pretty sure the stated reasoning during the campaign was essentially both.

From the campaign front page;

The Miniatures

In Shadows of Brimstone, players name their heroes and give them personality, making choices along the way to tailor the character to their liking. We wanted to be sure that the miniatures had the characterful detail to match! We also know that many players will want to paint their figures. Increasing the scale of the figures to the new industry standard for high quality, high detail, easily paintable miniatures was an obvious choice. Our new Shadows of Brimstone figures are 35mm to the top of the head to match the scale of amazing figures from Games Workshop, Privateer Press, and others.

It seems they went more in depth on the matter in updates, but frankly I'm not invested enough to go hunting even those couple of pages.

Now, 'quality' is going to be subjective. One person's 'what is this gak' is another person's 'omg it's amazing they should've sent a poet...'

As I don't have the minis in hand yet, I'm waiting to see them up close. As an amateur to the hobby (Malifaux was my first minis game as of ~3 years ago, and most of those figures were in pewter), I'm sure my expectations won't be nearly as high simply due to minimal experience and comparisons to make.

Given how prone some people on the internet are to hyperbole and editorializing to tell a story, I think I'll reserve judgement for now.

On the up side, the people who will be building and painting these figures have been doing so for decades, so even if some extra work is necessary, I have faith they'll produce incredible results all the same.

I'll wait until I have my sets in hand for the Final Judgement, but all this talk of 'soft detail' and 'lots of gaps' on HIPs models here is seriously disappointing.

I was hoping for MUCH better here...and I hope to still be pleasantly here!

So I think I posted these before, but I'll do so again:

Harbinger vs. Beast with 8000 Eyes or whatever it's called from Myth:



Notice the difference in the depth of detail, paying particular attention to the Harbingers horns and the Beasts chest.

And again here:



Soft detail in general from the Shadows model, whereas on the MYTH Orc, you can see that even his belly plate is engraved.

The Shadows Heroes are better, IMO, than the Shadows Monsters: You can see here that the Shadows priest compares quite well with the MYTH hero:



My problems really being to compile when you look at this photo:



I'm an experienced modeler. I've put together embarrassing amounts of miniatures. Notice the rather large gap on the harbinger's shoulders. There was no way to prevent them, on either side. On the harbingers leg connection spot, there's a sizable gap. There was no way to prevent this either, as if I had connected it to the groin area completely, there would have been a large gap in the back which would have been harder for me to fix.

Gaps are a problem on the creepy crawly guy too:



Notice the large seam running from his shoulders to his bottom. It's a relatively easy fix, but on HIPS models using current technology, typically don't even exist. The join seem on a new Malifaux plastic, or a GW plastic probably doesn't even need to be greenstuffed because it's so small that your primer will fill the gap. That won't work here. Again, it's a relatively simple fix, but it's endemic of the shadows monsters.

And THEN when you compare it to this guy:



Who is in PVC and is absurdly highly detailed, you can perhaps see where my frustration comes from.

I promise I'm not trying to be critical just to be a dick, or to yuck someone else's yum. I'm pointing these things out because, unfortunately, the sum of all the miniatures parts with Shadows puts it well below what is "standard" for the industry for a game at that pricepoint.

I suppose that's where my inexperience comes in.

Is Myth actually "standard" at that price point? Especially considering the box contains 32 figures of varying sizes for a sub $100 MSRP (available for around $65 online). Note: I'm not saying that a single piece Tentacle is equivalent to a multi-piece Harbinger, but that kind of money might get me 2 or 3 Malifaux crew boxes, with perhaps better detail, but none of the cards, dice, tiles, rulesbooks and whatnot either, and perhaps half the figures (ranging from 1-3 pieces per figure to half a dozen or more).

Basically, are SoB figures 'sub par' or are they simply being compared to the higher end and not standing up well?

If SoB is "low quality" and Myth is "average", what is "high quality"?

Note, this isn't a challenge. Again, as a noob, I recognize that I simply don't know.

Personally, I liked their LNOE and FanG figures. Not amazing stuff, but perfectly workable for boardgames, and in comparison to those the pictures I've seen for SoB look reasonably good to me.

But also note that my bar may simply be set fairly low due to that inexperience.

Maybe the Wave 2 stuff and Expansions will be better?

 Forar wrote:


Is Myth actually "standard" at that price point? Especially considering the box contains 32 figures of varying sizes for a sub $100 MSRP (available for around $65 online). Note: I'm not saying that a single piece Tentacle is equivalent to a multi-piece Harbinger, but that kind of money might get me 2 or 3 Malifaux crew boxes, with perhaps better detail, but none of the cards, dice, tiles, rulesbooks and whatnot either, and perhaps half the figures (ranging from 1-3 pieces per figure to half a dozen or more).

Basically, are SoB figures 'sub par' or are they simply being compared to the higher end and not standing up well?

If SoB is "low quality" and Myth is "average", what is "high quality"?

That's actually a really interesting question!

I think the argument could be made that the "Standard" is Fantasy Flight's Descent 2E, with other games like Mice and Mystics and Gears of War being in that same tier. They all contain about the same amount of "stuff" (minis, boards, cards) and are all around $80 retail

I'd say, and again this is just me, Myth, Super Dungeon Explore and Arcadia Quest on a 'half tier' above, sitting at that magical $100 retail price point. This is also where I believe Shadows of Brimstone fits.

The problem, in my eyes, is that while the cardboard (and like I said, mine had a slight off center print on two sides--I really don't hold that against them, and its not bad enough that I care), the cards, and the manuals are all up to snuff for the $100 level, IMO the miniatures are clearly below the $100 standard, and I honestly think they're actually below the FFG $80 Standard.

Which is why I've never actually called the Shadows stuff bad; Its just a bit underwhelming, especially when you compare it to the items in market it's supposed to be competing against.

The gameplay actually looks incredibly deep and fun.

For me, it's a combination of space and simply not getting 'excited' about the minis. Its weird to me, because even at the Outlaw level, I have a metric gak ton of stuff still coming to me, and I can't even get excited about it.

 Alpharius wrote:
Maybe the Wave 2 stuff and Expansions will be better?

I'm hopeful too....

As others have said, I was underwhelmed with the figures.

My big Targa boss monster tentacle guy has really soft detail, especially his eyes.

That's been my biggest disappointment so far.

Then again, I've just been building all the red plastic ones, and I'm sure that doesn't help bring the details out much.

The gaps on my Harbinger weren't as bad as Cincys though.

I'm hoping once some paint is slapped on, none of that will matter.

 cincydooley wrote:
I honestly think they're actually below the FFG $80 Standard.

fwiw, I've noticed that different KS will have different sources of funding, sometimes only the backers, sometimes outside parties, often the company itself (eg. run at a loss). So, while you should shop for a good price on KS, you shouldn't expect one KS's $100 pledge should get you the same amount and quality of stuff as another $100 pledge. That's yet another risk of KS a project, rather than waiting for the product in the store. Same ditto for "renders are not miniatures", apparently.

Anyway, thanks for the pics and comparison against FFG models. BGG'ers are very happy with the gameplay. SoB was designed by the Warhammer Quest folks, so this shouldn't be surprising. At least enjoy the game!