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Nobody spied on Mutti. She just ass dialed the NSA and they were so bored from her, that they only had 2 options left: commit suicide or leak a lie about spying, so they could get a bit of joy back into their lives.

I mean, really? Spying on Merkel? What a waste of tax money. Spy on Deutsche Bank or VW or Mercedes or whatever managers, there's something to get.

Spying on german politicians is useless, they have no power. What happens here is decided by the bureaucrats.

 Haight wrote:
Everyone spies on everyone, nations only complain about it when they catch someone.

Seriously. If you think the French and Germans are not spying on us, you're either incredibly naive, or simply have no concept of how foreign intelligence services work.

Judging by the fact that you fellows seem to have tapped the German Premier's phone, I think the efficacy of their Secret Services compared to your own has been revealed somewhat.


Also, I'm also not necessarily buying the argument that 'everyone does it, so the US have nothing to be ashamed of'. Do they? I actually have a slightly sneaky feeling that whilst the rest of the West have our ways and means have finding things out on the sly, the US Secret Service is a lot bigger and nastier than what we tend to run these days. I genuinely do not think the British Secret Service would set out to actively bug the US President for example. The Chinese one? Yes. The Russian one? Yes. The Indian one? Maybe.The US one? Probably not. Conversely, would the US set out to bug Downing Street all over? Right here and now, I'd undoubtedly say yes.

I think it's something of a case of the extent to which the US goes to in doing these sorts of things. Guantanamo Bay, drone attacks in Pakistan, landing commando teams in other countries to abduct men wanted by the US, hacking embassies, bugging world leaders, and so on. I'm not saying that all European hands are bloodless these days, far from it. But nobody else in the world quite takes self-righteous paranoid hypocrisy to the extremes of the US Secret Service/military.

 Ketara wrote:

Also, I'm also not necessarily buying the argument that 'everyone does it, so the US have nothing to be ashamed of'. Do they? I actually have a slightly sneaky feeling that whilst the rest of the West have our ways and means have finding things out on the sly, the US Secret Service is a lot bigger and nastier than what we tend to run these days. I genuinely do not think the British Secret Service would set out to actively bug the US President for example. The Chinese one? Yes. The Russian one? Yes. The Indian one? Maybe.The US one? Probably not. Conversely, would the US set out to bug Downing Street all over? Right here and now, I'd undoubtedly say yes.

As I said earlier, the US doesnt spy on only a couple of countries, mostly due to us having "intelligence trade agreements" if you want to call them such.

Also, I'd say your Secret Service is plenty nasty... I've seen James Bond

 Ensis Ferrae wrote:


As I said earlier, the US doesnt spy on only a couple of countries, mostly due to us having "intelligence trade agreements" if you want to call them such.

Also, I'd say your Secret Service is plenty nasty... I've seen James Bond

I have no doubt that the US gathers plenty of intelligence on the UK. The 'special relationship' is grand for the most part when things are going smoothly, but America has always been perfectly happy to smack us down or back out whenever they perceived it to be in their own interests to do so. From the economic situation post world wars, to the Suez Canal, to uhming and ahhing over the Falklands. America is the premier world power, and will brook no potential opposition, threat, or inconvenience to that.

If it came down to bugging a UK embassy to try and replace a BAE contract with one from Lockheed? The US Intelligence service wouldn't bat an eyelid. And neither would the US President.

Bizarely enough though, I don't think we would, reversing the situations. We might try and bribe someone in the local government, give away a small pile of honorary degrees, and even bug the house of the fellow making the buying decisions. But no further than that.

I suppose it's a question of where you draw the line, and America seems to draw it a lot further than most of the rest of us in the West. Which is....kind of sad really. In a sort of wasted potential sort of way.

I must admit, I do wonder what the American response would be if it was the Germans having bugged the President's phone for the last year, and if the American posters here would be quite so nonchalant and blase.

 Ketara wrote:

 Haight wrote:
Everyone spies on everyone, nations only complain about it when they catch someone.

Seriously. If you think the French and Germans are not spying on us, you're either incredibly naive, or simply have no concept of how foreign intelligence services work.

Judging by the fact that you fellows seem to have tapped the German Premier's phone, I think the efficacy of their Secret Services compared to your own has been revealed somewhat.


Also, I'm also not necessarily buying the argument that 'everyone does it, so the US have nothing to be ashamed of'. Do they? I actually have a slightly sneaky feeling that whilst the rest of the West have our ways and means have finding things out on the sly, the US Secret Service is a lot bigger and nastier than what we tend to run these days. I genuinely do not think the British Secret Service would set out to actively bug the US President for example. The Chinese one? Yes. The Russian one? Yes. The Indian one? Maybe.The US one? Probably not. Conversely, would the US set out to bug Downing Street all over? Right here and now, I'd undoubtedly say yes.

I think it's something of a case of the extent to which the US goes to in doing these sorts of things. Guantanamo Bay, drone attacks in Pakistan, landing commando teams in other countries to abduct men wanted by the US, hacking embassies, bugging world leaders, and so on. I'm not saying that all European hands are bloodless these days, far from it. But nobody else in the world quite takes self-righteous paranoid hypocrisy to the extremes of the US Secret Service/military.

It is extremely well known in business cricles that the governments of Germany and France actively spy on foreign companies. There are warnings about executives travelling to those countries to protect their papers etc - the same level of threat as when going to China.

As Jon Stewart noted about Geremany. Really? This is the country that invaded Poland for looking at it funny. Besides, we're the perfect partner, because we listen...

Indeed. One of the many gems of the State Department cables that Wikileaks put up back in the noughts was that France is responsible for more espionage in Europe than either Russia or China.

Indeed, their Eiffel tower is not just an attractive phallus symbol it's also host to a myriad sensors to intercept brain waves. Keep your thoughts straight on the attractive moulin rouge dancers legs lest you get caught.

They need to up their game and stop getting caught.

Or... Maybe they wanted to get caught so that they can give more credence to the whistle blower who is ACTUALLY the spy all along!

They didn't get caught. This is, apparently, more leaked gak, likely courtesy of Snowden.

Might be time to start thinking about putting some ricin in the end of an umbrella.

Or Snowden is actually a double naught spy!

Ketara, I don't think the UK intelligence guys are as nice as you're making out.

On the other hand, would US posters be as nonchalant if they found out Germany was spying on the US president?

Meh. Though my flag is German, the only people who ever spy on my home country are the British, and that's because we kept putting bombs in all their bins.

 Da Boss wrote:
Ketara, I don't think the UK intelligence guys are as nice as you're making out.

On the other hand, would US posters be as nonchalant if they found out Germany was spying on the US president?

Meh. Though my flag is German, the only people who ever spy on my home country are the British, and that's because we kept putting bombs in all their bins.

I assume Germany is spying as much as it can.

 Frazzled wrote:
I assume Germany is spying as much as it can.

If you're good at something, why stop? Old habits die hard and we have quite a number of old Stasi members & IMs, they need something to do.

exactly. Germany, the only country where spying is an employment works program.

Honestly I'd be surprised if Germany wasn't spying. As THE economic powerhouse for the EU it'd be ridiculous for them not to spy on the US. Our economy heavily effects theirs and that's more than enough of a reason to spy.

And if we caught you guys at it I'd say cool, it's just how major nations operate. I don't think Germany is looking for a war with us nor us with the EU or anything. But todays allies can be tomorrows enemies and that doesn't take into account economic decisions that can affect us. So yeah, countries spy and stuff

 Minx wrote:
Indeed, their Eiffel tower is not just an attractive phallus symbol it's also host to a myriad sensors to intercept brain waves. Keep your thoughts straight on the attractive moulin rouge dancers legs lest you get caught.

And what about all those German cars that are everywhere? That BMW badge looks suspicious


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Hulksmash wrote:
Honestly I'd be surprised if Germany wasn't spying. As THE economic powerhouse for the EU it'd be ridiculous for them not to spy on the US. Our economy heavily effects theirs and that's more than enough of a reason to spy.

And if we caught you guys at it I'd say cool, it's just how major nations operate. I don't think Germany is looking for a war with us nor us with the EU or anything. But todays allies can be tomorrows enemies and that doesn't take into account economic decisions that can affect us. So yeah, countries spy and stuff

Who told you that Germany is the EU powerhouse? Our newspapers say otherwise!

Then again, our newspapers still think it's 1940

 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:
And what about all those German cars that are everywhere? That BMW badge looks suspicious

That's because BMW is bavarian, not german. We would like to kick them out, but Austria is not willing to take them.

Bavaria is Germany's Texas...

Texas is Germany's Texas.

The actual problem is that the US controls a lot of the companies that provide the tooling for information networks.

The main offshoot of this might be the rise of challenges to this current monopoly.

A lot of government departments in the EU use Linux as a base for systems because its much easier to secure than Windows based systems, and ugly runours persist that Microsoft OS's have deliberate backdoors in it facing Langley.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Orlanth wrote:
The actual problem is that the US controls a lot of the companies that provide the tooling for information networks.

The main offshoot of this might be the rise of challenges to this current monopoly.

Just found out its starting already:

http://in.reuters.com/article/2013/10/25/usa-spying-germany-idINL5N0IF2GV20131025

Frazzled wrote:

It is extremely well known in business cricles that the governments of Germany and France actively spy on foreign companies. There are warnings about executives travelling to those countries to protect their papers etc - the same level of threat as when going to China.

Seaward wrote:Indeed. One of the many gems of the State Department cables that Wikileaks put up back in the noughts was that France is responsible for more espionage in Europe than either Russia or China.

Da Boss wrote:Ketara, I don't think the UK intelligence guys are as nice as you're making out.
.

Hulksmash wrote:Honestly I'd be surprised if Germany wasn't spying. As THE economic powerhouse for the EU it'd be ridiculous for them not to spy on the US. Our economy heavily effects theirs and that's more than enough of a reason to spy.

I'm not disputing that intelligence capabilities exist in other countries. I'm just stating that that American intelligence activities and operations seem to be somewhat more.....extreme than their Western counterparts in general. There is no German equivalent of Guantanamo Bay. There are no French Commando teams sneaking their way into Africa to illegally abduct people they deem to be terrorists. The British, despite having been deployed in Afghanistan alongside the US, have yet to resort to lobbing drone bombs over at people they spot through satellite images. The Spanish have no government ability to monitor and process vast amounts of internet usage.

Generally speaking, European intelligence agencies do not engage in any of the above, and that is without even including anything to do with Merkel or the French embassies. You have the occasional odd exception or parallel, but they tend to be rare. With the US however, such activities are regularly carried out in flagrant violation of international law or human rights. And when these things get caught and picked up upon by the international community, the average American response is, 'Eh. We're the good guys. Innocent people have nothing to fear/everyone else does the same thing/it helps keep us secure/It's necessary for our national security'.

Yet if any of the activities I just listed above were committed against Americans or on American soil, the American public would be baying for blood. Germans wiretapping Obama? Chinese troops abducting people in America and then imprisoning them without trial? Russians throwing drones into America? I mean seriously, we'd be in World War 3 within 24 hours. Hence my statement that the American intelligence/military machine is a self-righteous hypocritical set of organisations. And that in this modern day and age, European intelligence operations do not even begin to come close to the violence or scale of American intelligence activities.

It's an uncomfortable truth, and one the American public generally does not appreciate.

I think you're missing one key element in all of this, Ketara. The United States is a superpower. Like it or not, we can get away with far more than everyone else. If we get caught with our hand in the cookie jar, the most anyone can do is suggest bilateral talks.

Despite that, we do regularly have the Chinese and the Russians hacking us. It's the world we live in.

What you should really be putting some thought into, though, is that you wouldn't know about any of this if some self-appointed jackass of a traitor hadn't decided to leak a bunch of gak he should never have had access to. We don't know the extent of European intelligence operations. We don't know the extent of American intelligence operations. Drawing conclusions about who's doing more nefarious gak in such an environment is going to be nothing but speculation.

I also think it's important to separate the secret squirrel military stuff from the NSA/CIA stuff. Sending SEALs into Somalia isn't us being "aggressive" with our intelligence-gathering, it's prosecuting the war on terror. We do it because we have the capability to do it, though I have little doubt that the SAS/SBS would be doing the same if Britain had the same reach and knowledge of high-value targets. In fact, I have very little doubt that they have done the same. One of the many things I will never understand is NSW's eagerness for the spotlight.

So... what do you propose that US to do?

I'd chalk this up as normal state's brinksmenship.

 Ketara wrote:
There is no German equivalent of Guantanamo Bay. There are no French Commando teams sneaking their way into Africa to illegally abduct people they deem to be terrorists. The British, despite having been deployed in Afghanistan alongside the US, have yet to resort to lobbing drone bombs over at people they spot through satellite images.

We know.

You're welcome.

 kronk wrote:

 Ketara wrote:
There is no German equivalent of Guantanamo Bay. There are no French Commando teams sneaking their way into Africa to illegally abduct people they deem to be terrorists. The British, despite having been deployed in Afghanistan alongside the US, have yet to resort to lobbing drone bombs over at people they spot through satellite images.

We know.

You're welcome.

Yep.

Ketara... isn't the US's action really stems from that fact that we're practically the lone superpower at the moment?

 Ketara wrote:

Frazzled wrote:

It is extremely well known in business cricles that the governments of Germany and France actively spy on foreign companies. There are warnings about executives travelling to those countries to protect their papers etc - the same level of threat as when going to China.

Seaward wrote:Indeed. One of the many gems of the State Department cables that Wikileaks put up back in the noughts was that France is responsible for more espionage in Europe than either Russia or China.

Da Boss wrote:Ketara, I don't think the UK intelligence guys are as nice as you're making out.
.

Hulksmash wrote:Honestly I'd be surprised if Germany wasn't spying. As THE economic powerhouse for the EU it'd be ridiculous for them not to spy on the US. Our economy heavily effects theirs and that's more than enough of a reason to spy.

I'm not disputing that intelligence capabilities exist in other countries. I'm just stating that that American intelligence activities and operations seem to be somewhat more.....extreme than their Western counterparts in general. There is no German equivalent of Guantanamo Bay. There are no French Commando teams sneaking their way into Africa to illegally abduct people they deem to be terrorists. The British, despite having been deployed in Afghanistan alongside the US, have yet to resort to lobbing drone bombs over at people they spot through satellite images. The Spanish have no government ability to monitor and process vast amounts of internet usage.

Generally speaking, European intelligence agencies do not engage in any of the above, and that is without even including anything to do with Merkel or the French embassies. You have the occasional odd exception or parallel, but they tend to be rare. With the US however, such activities are regularly carried out in flagrant violation of international law or human rights. And when these things get caught and picked up upon by the international community, the average American response is, 'Eh. We're the good guys. Innocent people have nothing to fear/everyone else does the same thing/it helps keep us secure/It's necessary for our national security'.

Yet if any of the activities I just listed above were committed against Americans or on American soil, the American public would be baying for blood. Germans wiretapping Obama? Chinese troops abducting people in America and then imprisoning them without trial? Russians throwing drones into America? I mean seriously, we'd be in World War 3 within 24 hours. Hence my statement that the American intelligence/military machine is a self-righteous hypocritical set of organisations. And that in this modern day and age, European intelligence operations do not even begin to come close to the violence or scale of American intelligence activities.

It's an uncomfortable truth, and one the American public generally does not appreciate.

You say that but fail to notice the country with the most nukes on the planet is now run by the KGB...
Besides you're just whining because all this got released by Snowden. It would be interesting to see a similar dump by a UK intelligence person.

 Seaward wrote:
I think you're missing one key element in all of this, Ketara. The United States is a superpower. Like it or not, we can get away with far more than everyone else. If we get caught with our hand in the cookie jar, the most anyone can do is suggest bilateral talks.

Certainly. When the Russians assassinated Litvinenko here in London with Polonium, nobody bats an eyelid. It is the Russians after all. They have a harsh reputation, and have never claimed to be the good guys.

The problem is that America regularly talks about 'democracy' whilst sponsoring attempts to overthrow democratically elected governments, it talks about 'freedom' whilst abducting and imprisoning people, promotes 'international peace' whilst simultaneously refusing to sign anything that might bring it about in some way. And then wonders why people the world over get upset at this.

Heck, we wouldn't even care if we thought you were lying. But the weird thing is, the American Government seems to believe what it says at the same time!

Nobody bats an eyelid when a superpower acts like a superpower and promotes itself and it's maintenance of that position. That's standard since the days of the Romans. It's just this weird thing where the US tells the world it cares about all these moral values it upholds, and then does its level best to dodge the lot.

Sending SEALs into Somalia isn't us being "aggressive" with our intelligence-gathering, it's prosecuting the war on terror.

"We declared war on terror—it's not even a noun, so, good luck. After we defeat it, I'm sure we'll take on that bastard ennui."

What you should really be putting some thought into, though, is that you wouldn't know about any of this if some self-appointed jackass of a traitor hadn't decided to leak a bunch of gak he should never have had access to.

If a paper gets leaked next week letting me know the NSA has a bunch of cameras in the Queen's bedroom, please don't take any offence when I say I'd rather know about it (as an Englishman).

We know.

You're welcome.

Amusingly enough, if we hadn't taken part in Iraq/Afghanistan, would the UK be such a prominent target for terrorists? Had the USA not done so, would there even be a need for such extreme American countermeasures? When your intelligence activities merely spawn more enemies by their extreme nature, does it ever end?

Difficult questions, with no easy answer.

 Frazzled wrote:

You say that but fail to notice the country with the most nukes on the planet is now run by the KGB...

Distraction from the actual issue at hand, namely the behaviours of the US. Like I said up above:

when these things get caught and picked up upon by the international community, the average American response is, 'Eh. We're the good guys. Innocent people have nothing to fear/everyone else does the same thing/it helps keep us secure/It's necessary for our national security'.

 Ketara wrote:
The problem is that America regularly talks about 'democracy' whilst sponsoring attempts to overthrow democratically elected governments, it talks about 'freedom' whilst abducting and imprisoning people, promotes 'international peace' whilst simultaneously refusing to sign anything that might bring it about in some way. And then wonders why people the world over get upset at this.

Heck, we wouldn't even care if we thought you were lying. But the weird thing is, the American Government seems to believe what it says at the same time!

Nobody bats an eyelid when a superpower acts like a superpower and promotes itself and it's maintenance of that position. That's standard since the days of the Romans. It's just this weird thing where the US tells the world it cares about all these moral values it upholds, and then does its level best to dodge the lot.

I disagree. Profoundly, in fact, but I'm not sure it's worth arguing over. If you think you're seeing the US unleashed and acting with indifference towards its ideals, I don't really know what to tell you. Pretending that the choice doesn't often come down to a decision between 'bad' and 'worse' is a luxury that just doesn't occur in the real world when your reach is as long as ours and your interests as extended.

"We declared war on terror—it's not even a noun, so, good luck. After we defeat it, I'm sure we'll take on that bastard ennui."

I've always found this to be one of the weakest arguments of the anti-war folks. It's shorthand. It's a war on organizations and individuals engaged in terrorist plots against us or our allies. That's a mouthful, however, so "war on terror" is easier to say.

If a paper gets leaked next week letting me know the NSA has a bunch of cameras in the Queen's bedroom, please don't take any offence when I say I'd rather know about it (as an Englishman).

What I mean is that we only know about all of this gak because of some douchebag leaking it. Claiming that the British or the French or whoever are above it all is nice, but until you get your own Snowden, it's not really evident that there's a factual basis for such a claim.

 whembly wrote:

Ketara... isn't the US's action really stems from that fact that we're practically the lone superpower at the moment?

This is far from the truth.

China is a superpower, and it is now flexing its muscles, and the US is backing away. The Chinese dont vocalise things the same way as the Cold War adversaries did.
China has been a superpower for awghile now, but until recently they prefered to hide and pretend they were not, mostly to keep America asleep, some still are even now China is doing frankly very agrssive moves like claiming all ocean territory (and offshore resources) in the South China sea, regardless of who it actually belongs to in international law.

Russia is still a nuclear superpower, if never an economic one anytime they fancy playing hardball they can. Putin doesn't do this often as its not in Russia's interest.


If anything whembly the NSA are flexing their muscles because the US has fewer muscles than it had, doesn't like that and uses the ones it can. A bit like post war Britain in the early 50's. Unlike the Uk America will remain powerful because of its natural size, but the US Empire days are drawing to their close very rapidly. It's China's world now.

I would like to add that, funnily enough, Europe has little qualms about anything the US do as long as it benefits us as well in some way, so accusing the US and only the US of double standards is a bit unfair.

I'm also hesitant to call the appeasement policy of European powers towards Islamic extremism wiser than the US' war on terror.

Finally, I'm more outraged at the level of incompetence displayed by our secret services when they seemingly are unable to protect the phone of the German chancellor, the French president etc. etc. than the fact that the US (successfully) attempted to tap them. I mean, what are we paying these guys for again?