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Wow, this discussion went hostile fast.
People... instead of getting so venomous about plastic hyena men and whose the bestest sculptor for ever for reals.. take a step back and realize.. we're arguing about Gnolls. If they are that important in your life, then you've probably already got some. If you hate these that much, you probably have something else going on that needs your energy more than this discussion. This is for gaming. Fun. So lower the blood pressure.. don't start your weekend with internet badass syndrome.. and maybe build some minis or play some games?!?

Personally.. I'm cool with these. I don't think they're the best thing ever. They don't need to be. Here's a secret about the market. Everyone isn't making Space Marine knockoffs because nobody made them. They're making them because EVERYONE BUYS THEM. So if you want someone to do better gnolls.. proving that they are unpopular by not buying the kit is not the way to go. However, if these sell like hotcakes (see zombies, skeletons, woman warriors, barbarians, dragons, orcs, etc) then other companies with better sculptors will say.. Hey.. if those mediocre Gnolls sold by the dozen, maybe my better sculpts will sell even moar bettar!!!one!111!!

Seriously.. if you like them, even a little.. pick them up. If you get them and they suck, turn them into something else or sell them on ebay. If you can't be bothered either way then why throw so much hatred on the thread?

Bad models tear communities apart

But yes, I agree. I wish/hope they will be better than what I am seeing so far, but a mediocre to bad gnoll box does not wreck any plans I had one way or the other.

Now, if they were satyrs/fauns and centaurs that turned out badly, I would be gnashing my teeth. I would like to recreate Titan Quest on the table top.

They get the job done for me. So, you guys don't buy any and leave more for me.

 MLaw wrote:
Huh, here's one of the faces painted.. not too bad..

I like it. I think the painted version shows off the miniature much better than the previous renderings do.

Some people like the look of these models and some people don't, I guess they just can't be gnoll things to gnoll men.

I like 'em... and love the Frostgrave kits for their purpose... but I also really love the game, and want to support it, and see it thrive.

That said, I play GW Ogres, so I am told my taste is horrible. :-p What can I say, some games fit a true-scale aesthetic, and some games I play I don't mind ridiculous proportions.

 Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:
Maybe a bit of pinning and greenstuff could extend the neck and give them a more hunched appearance.

Well, any figure can be rebuilt into something better if you have the time, materials and inclination. Gnolls simply aren't that important to me, and I'd wager that this isn't a terribly uncommon perspective.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 KingmanHighborn wrote:
Making me feel bad for liking the gnolls so far, and the minis they have made already. Except that one cultist that has Klingon ridges...

Nah, go for your life, mate. I'm not telling anyone else that they're not allowed to like 'em. Just discussing how I'm personally disappointed and won't be buying them (and I wanted to).


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 Mymearan wrote:

My dislike of them has nothing to do with their amount of muscle, but rather their posture and general humanoid appearance. The artwork has them looking much more feral, hunched over like hyenas. The models just look like guys with hyena heads and dog legs.

This. In case there was any confusion.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 judgedoug wrote:

Probably best not to compare _anyone's_ sculpting of humans to the Perry brothers, actually. Perry sculpts will always look better, because they are better.

catachan_jungle_fighters.jpg

empire_state_troops.gif


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 MLaw wrote:
Wow, this discussion went hostile fast.
People... instead of getting so venomous about plastic hyena men and whose the bestest sculptor for ever for reals.. take a step back and realize.. we're arguing about Gnolls.

Total agreement with this bit.

However, if these sell like hotcakes (see zombies, skeletons, woman warriors, barbarians, dragons, orcs, etc) then other companies with better sculptors will say.. Hey.. if those mediocre Gnolls sold by the dozen, maybe my better sculpts will sell even moar bettar!!!one!111!!
Seriously.. if you like them, even a little.. pick them up. If you get them and they suck, turn them into something else or sell them on ebay. If you can't be bothered either way then why throw so much hatred on the thread?

But not this bit. Northstar isn't a charity helping to look after sick kittens or cure cancer or anything. And there's nothing wrong with saying that you were looking forward to them and are disappointed with the final product and no longer intend to purchase. Well, as long as it's not done in a manner to pick a fight, anyway. And probably no need to go on for 14 pages repeating that one thing, either.

 Azazelx wrote:

catachan_jungle_fighters.jpg

empire_state_troops.gif

Considering the quality of all their work in recent years (and their earlier stuff) I wonder what happened there, unless it was something to do with Michael Perry's missing hand...

Azazelx - The bit about buying the kits. I think you're reading too much into what I'm saying. Like I stated before.. I need some gnolls for roleplaying and they don't have to be amazing sculpts.

That said.. if I were to refrain from buying models because they don't look like the best sculpts I've ever seen, I wouldn't own very many models. Everyone's needs and wants are going to be different but this thread took a pretty combative tone towards people who were expressing that they were happy with what we're being shown.

MLaw, I naturally have low blood pressure and a slow heart rate. Internet rage is my cardio.

On that note, I must admit I'm disappointed with what we've seen so far. The sculpts look so...half assed. If anything, they aren't even as good as the Warriors or cultists, and I quietly dropped the idea of buying any of those. Depending on how the sprues look and how reasonable (for me) the prices are, I might end up buying even more the manor gnolls and reposing them. The bones prices seem pretty close to Frostgrave PPM, but the quality is immensely higher.

These are, like, the Epirian Contractors of the gnolls.

 Silent Puffin? wrote:

 Azazelx wrote:

catachan_jungle_fighters.jpg

empire_state_troops.gif

Considering the quality of all their work in recent years (and their earlier stuff) I wonder what happened there, unless it was something to do with Michael Perry's missing hand...

Weren't they having a falling out with GW about that time? Maybe I'm mistaken but I could've sworn I read that they had parted ways a while shortly after the period those were done..

Didn't the Perrys sculpt the Terminator Genisis minis? Those were pretty bad. One even had a Catachan face.

I suspect the Perrys have trouble sculpting anyone from a civilization that uses toilet paper.

 MLaw wrote:

 Silent Puffin? wrote:

 Azazelx wrote:

catachan_jungle_fighters.jpg

empire_state_troops.gif

Considering the quality of all their work in recent years (and their earlier stuff) I wonder what happened there, unless it was something to do with Michael Perry's missing hand...

Weren't they having a falling out with GW about that time? Maybe I'm mistaken but I could've sworn I read that they had parted ways a while shortly after the period those were done..

This is the first I've ever heard of a falling out...

Rather, the Lord of the Rings and Hobbit range was coming to its natural conclusion, and their own business Perry Miniatures was growing fast. Rather than agree to be transferred to work on the Warhammer ranges, they chose to leave GW and focus on their own business.

 BobtheInquisitor wrote:
MLaw, I naturally have low blood pressure and a slow heart rate. Internet rage is my cardio.

On that note, I must admit I'm disappointed with what we've seen so far. The sculpts look so...half assed. If anything, they aren't even as good as the Warriors or cultists, and I quietly dropped the idea of buying any of those. Depending on how the sprues look and how reasonable (for me) the prices are, I might end up buying even more the manor gnolls and reposing them. The bones prices seem pretty close to Frostgrave PPM, but the quality is immensely higher.

These are, like, the Epirian Contractors of the gnolls.

The smaller stature of the Frostgrave ones serves my purposes. I'm going to have adventurers wander into a Gnoll village. The Manor Gnolls are far more militant looking and will mostly be their warriors while these FG kit gnolls will be casters and villagers defending themselves.

Another note (not really towards Bob).. I don't know how well many of the people complaining paint.. but unless it's at least high tabletop quality, it's utterly silly to get bent out of shape about a model you're going to coat with thick paint with garish shading. (law of averages says most people will paint these like crap in other words..)

However, if these sell like hotcakes (see zombies, skeletons, woman warriors, barbarians, dragons, orcs, etc) then other companies with better sculptors will say.. Hey.. if those mediocre Gnolls sold by the dozen, maybe my better sculpts will sell even moar bettar!!!one!111!!
Seriously.. if you like them, even a little.. pick them up. If you get them and they suck, turn them into something else or sell them on ebay. If you can't be bothered either way then why throw so much hatred on the thread?

But not this bit. Northstar isn't a charity helping to look after sick kittens or cure cancer or anything. And there's nothing wrong with saying that you were looking forward to them and are disappointed with the final product and no longer intend to purchase. Well, as long as it's not done in a manner to pick a fight, anyway. And probably no need to go on for 14 pages repeating that one thing, either.

Any company that bothers to do even a modicum of market research (i.e. not GW) will know that there is a demand for plastic Gnoll kits but take notice of the vocal criticism of the Frost Grave kit and take steps to address those criticisms.

 Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:

However, if these sell like hotcakes (see zombies, skeletons, woman warriors, barbarians, dragons, orcs, etc) then other companies with better sculptors will say.. Hey.. if those mediocre Gnolls sold by the dozen, maybe my better sculpts will sell even moar bettar!!!one!111!!
Seriously.. if you like them, even a little.. pick them up. If you get them and they suck, turn them into something else or sell them on ebay. If you can't be bothered either way then why throw so much hatred on the thread?

But not this bit. Northstar isn't a charity helping to look after sick kittens or cure cancer or anything. And there's nothing wrong with saying that you were looking forward to them and are disappointed with the final product and no longer intend to purchase. Well, as long as it's not done in a manner to pick a fight, anyway. And probably no need to go on for 14 pages repeating that one thing, either.

Any company that bothers to do even a modicum of market research (i.e. not GW) will know that there is a demand for plastic Gnoll kits but take notice of the vocal criticism of the Frost Grave kit and take steps to address those criticisms.

That's a fair point.. but if they had never released these, this discussion wouldn't have happened. Plastic gnolls would be relegated to Bones where they're lost in the sea of other Bones models OR limited to badly sculpted and overpriced wizkids Gnolls that nobody buys. I think Otherworld and Grenadier might be the only other Gnoll makers out there (that can't be right). Neither of those are exactly stirring up multi page discussions.

 rosafari wrote:
Some people like the look of these models and some people don't, I guess they just can't be gnoll things to gnoll men.

I can't let a great post like this go by and not be commented on!

EXALTED!

(Plus, Giant Robo!)

Also a really good time to remind everyone to not make it personal, etc. etc.

 MLaw wrote:
Azazelx - The bit about buying the kits. I think you're reading too much into what I'm saying. Like I stated before.. I need some gnolls for roleplaying and they don't have to be amazing sculpts.

That said.. if I were to refrain from buying models because they don't look like the best sculpts I've ever seen, I wouldn't own very many models. Everyone's needs and wants are going to be different but this thread took a pretty combative tone towards people who were expressing that they were happy with what we're being shown.

I understood what you were getting at, but felt it was a little hyperbolic and replied in kind - though not angrily. I can't see (m)any more plastic gnoll kits on the horizon anyway - regardless of how well these might sell. Essentially because they're not a Warhammer race, and mass army battles drive kit sales. A box here and there to a FG player or D&D GM doesn't mean much compared to however many boxes of goblins or dwarfs a warhammer or even KoW player will buy.

 MLaw wrote:

 Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:

However, if these sell like hotcakes (see zombies, skeletons, woman warriors, barbarians, dragons, orcs, etc) then other companies with better sculptors will say.. Hey.. if those mediocre Gnolls sold by the dozen, maybe my better sculpts will sell even moar bettar!!!one!111!!
Seriously.. if you like them, even a little.. pick them up. If you get them and they suck, turn them into something else or sell them on ebay. If you can't be bothered either way then why throw so much hatred on the thread?

But not this bit. Northstar isn't a charity helping to look after sick kittens or cure cancer or anything. And there's nothing wrong with saying that you were looking forward to them and are disappointed with the final product and no longer intend to purchase. Well, as long as it's not done in a manner to pick a fight, anyway. And probably no need to go on for 14 pages repeating that one thing, either.

Any company that bothers to do even a modicum of market research (i.e. not GW) will know that there is a demand for plastic Gnoll kits but take notice of the vocal criticism of the Frost Grave kit and take steps to address those criticisms.

That's a fair point.. but if they had never released these, this discussion wouldn't have happened. Plastic gnolls would be relegated to Bones where they're lost in the sea of other Bones models OR limited to badly sculpted and overpriced wizkids Gnolls that nobody buys. I think Otherworld and Grenadier might be the only other Gnoll makers out there (that can't be right). Neither of those are exactly stirring up multi page discussions.

Oh I agree. I'd rather have a mediocre plastic Gnoll kit than NO plastic Gnoll kit. And, although I do agree with the sentiment that they fall far short of the fantastic artwork, I still like them and they fit in with the aesthetic of the other Frost Grave plastics. I will probably get one box to use in the D&D campaign I'm running (4th session tomorrow night) if I ever need Gnolls. A plastic kit is great because its good value for money (about £20-£25 for 20?) and I can customize them. One box of 20 Gnolls is more than enough, even for very large D&D encounters.

 MLaw wrote:

 Silent Puffin? wrote:

 Azazelx wrote:

catachan_jungle_fighters.jpg
empire_state_troops.gif

Considering the quality of all their work in recent years (and their earlier stuff) I wonder what happened there, unless it was something to do with Michael Perry's missing hand...

Weren't they having a falling out with GW about that time? Maybe I'm mistaken but I could've sworn I read that they had parted ways a while shortly after the period those were done..

When Michael lost the hand? They were on good terms for many, many years after that as far as I could tell. Their parting may well have been entirely amicable with the Perrys clearly wanting to concentrate on their own business making the historical models that are their passion, rather than an acrimonious one. The Empire State troops also came many, many years after the plastic Catachans.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 MLaw wrote:

Another note (not really towards Bob).. I don't know how well many of the people complaining paint.. but unless it's at least high tabletop quality, it's utterly silly to get bent out of shape about a model you're going to coat with thick paint with garish shading. (law of averages says most people will paint these like crap in other words..)

Needlessly insulting and offensive to so many people. You may as well suggest that people just play with green army men or blobs of putty if they're not at least this ------------- good a painter as defined by you.

 Alpharius wrote:

 rosafari wrote:
Some people like the look of these models and some people don't, I guess they just can't be gnoll things to gnoll men.

I can't let a great post like this go by and not be commented on!

EXALTED!

(Plus, Giant Robo!)

Also a really good time to remind everyone to not make it personal, etc. etc.

I am in a somewhat different camp - the one that thinks that the models do not look as good as the box art, but will probably be 'good enough for mooks'.

I will use them for cannon fodder gnolls in Pathfinder, use the Reaper gnolls for characters, and look at the Otherworld gnoll, and wonder what is wrong with his legs.... (I like digigrade gnolls.)

Sometimes... 'good enough' is good enough.

The Auld Grump - though I would have loved it had the models looked as good as the box art.

 Azazelx wrote:

 MLaw wrote:
Azazelx - The bit about buying the kits. I think you're reading too much into what I'm saying. Like I stated before.. I need some gnolls for roleplaying and they don't have to be amazing sculpts.

That said.. if I were to refrain from buying models because they don't look like the best sculpts I've ever seen, I wouldn't own very many models. Everyone's needs and wants are going to be different but this thread took a pretty combative tone towards people who were expressing that they were happy with what we're being shown.

I understood what you were getting at, but felt it was a little hyperbolic and replied in kind - though not angrily. I can't see (m)any more plastic gnoll kits on the horizon anyway - regardless of how well these might sell. Essentially because they're not a Warhammer race, and mass army battles drive kit sales. A box here and there to a FG player or D&D GM doesn't mean much compared to however many boxes of goblins or dwarfs a warhammer or even KoW player will buy.

Yeah, but you've got companies like Shieldwolf, Mierce, Titanforge, Hasslefree, and I'm sure others that DO make fantasy kits.. and they have people frequenting these boards. If they are in the spotlight it might also help companies like CMoN decide that maybe Gnolls need to be the badguy in an an expansion for a game like B-Sieged or whatever. It's not like I think tomorrow there's going to be all gnolls all the time. I just think if the discussion turns too sour it might give others the wrong impression. I think now is actually a prime time though for a race like Gnolls to make their big break. WHFB is on the ropes. KoW is seemingly open to expansion and experimentation, Kickstarter is bringing us tons of new games. So an anthromorphic (typically popular) animal race has a chance to shine.

Like I said before.. I think these are serviceable and have no illusions that they're not jaw dropping sculpts. I just think the like and dislike is being incorrectly polarized and categorized as absolute love or hate. If I'm being honest, yeah.. they're in fair 'meh territory. But again.. 'meh is fine for what I need. I'd kill for some 'meh troglodytes (dnd style) in a kit like this.

EDIT: If the painter remark is offensive remember that somebody spent hours sculpting these gnolls. Nobody seems to have a problem offending them..

Weren't they having a falling out with GW about that time? Maybe I'm mistaken but I could've sworn I read that they had parted ways a while shortly after the period those were done..

They didn't part ways with GW till just a few years ago, when they finished the last of their sculpts for The Hobbit trilogy. Michael lost his arm in 1996, two decades ago.

Parting ways with GW had nothing to do with falling with GW after Michael lost his arm, and everything to do with wanting to focus on their own business after they wrapped up their work for The Hobbit.

 Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:

Any company that bothers to do even a modicum of market research (i.e. not GW) will know that there is a demand for plastic Gnoll kits but take notice of the vocal criticism of the Frost Grave kit and take steps to address those criticisms.

Is the demand especially for Gnolls, though - or just well-made plastics of any under-represented D&D mass-monster type?

 Azazelx wrote:

 Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:

Any company that bothers to do even a modicum of market research (i.e. not GW) will know that there is a demand for plastic Gnoll kits but take notice of the vocal criticism of the Frost Grave kit and take steps to address those criticisms.

Is the demand especially for Gnolls, though - or just well-made plastics of any under-represented D&D mass-monster type?

Same difference.

 MLaw wrote:

Yeah, but you've got companies like Shieldwolf, Mierce, Titanforge, Hasslefree, and I'm sure others that DO make fantasy kits.. and they have people frequenting these boards. If they are in the spotlight it might also help companies like CMoN decide that maybe Gnolls need to be the badguy in an an expansion for a game like B-Sieged or whatever. It's not like I think tomorrow there's going to be all gnolls all the time. I just think if the discussion turns too sour it might give others the wrong impression. I think now is actually a prime time though for a race like Gnolls to make their big break. WHFB is on the ropes. KoW is seemingly open to expansion and experimentation, Kickstarter is bringing us tons of new games. So an anthromorphic (typically popular) animal race has a chance to shine.

I think a bunch of mobs in a game like B-Seiged is the most likely scenario for more gnolls, rather than a boxed set of plastics from Shieldwolf, et al. I imagine that small companies like that would be less likely to produce something that someone else (aside from GW) has already done. Mierce being more of an exception than most since their resin and metal kickstarter-oriented business model is quite different.

EDIT: If the painter remark is offensive remember that somebody spent hours sculpting these gnolls. Nobody seems to have a problem offending them..

A false equivalence. Very much so, in fact.

The sculptor/producers have put out an average-at-best model kit for purchase/consumption by the general public. That's pretty much the definition of something subject for public debate and discussion which includes criticism.

Telling hobbyists - the end consumers - that the quality of their hobby-painting (which is not for sale) isn't good enough for them to have an opinion on the sculpts of something that's a consumer product is very much a dick move. Weren't you asking people to be nice and less needlessly aggressive a few posts ago? That one is pretty far on the nasty side of passive-aggressive.

 Azazelx wrote:

 Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:

Any company that bothers to do even a modicum of market research (i.e. not GW) will know that there is a demand for plastic Gnoll kits but take notice of the vocal criticism of the Frost Grave kit and take steps to address those criticisms.

Is the demand especially for Gnolls, though - or just well-made plastics of any under-represented D&D mass-monster type?

In all honesty.. both! Gnolls, non-meso Lizardmen, Troglodytes, Kobolds, Evil Dwarves, Fish People.. the list goes on but I think GW is indirectly responsible for why we haven't seen more of these. It's nobody's fault or anything but their mass fantasy game was pretty much it for so long and the notion of rank and file fantasy creatures outside of a mass combat game is still honestly a relatively new concept.

 Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:

 Azazelx wrote:

 Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:

Any company that bothers to do even a modicum of market research (i.e. not GW) will know that there is a demand for plastic Gnoll kits but take notice of the vocal criticism of the Frost Grave kit and take steps to address those criticisms.

Is the demand especially for Gnolls, though - or just well-made plastics of any under-represented D&D mass-monster type?

Same difference.

/headscratch. You'd hope that companies would know without needing to do any market research or being told that better sculpts will receive more positive feedback and better sales. Then again, Mantic shows us otherwise...

Honestly, I was kinda laughing a bit about the painter thing it was meant as a joke and I was actually thinking of myself when I typed it. Being self-deprecating in the same thread I'm trying to maintain credibility seemed counterproductive when I typed it.. but I see now that my logic was flawed :(

 MLaw wrote:

In all honesty.. both! Gnolls, non-meso Lizardmen, Troglodytes, Kobolds, Evil Dwarves, Fish People.. the list goes on but I think GW is indirectly responsible for why we haven't seen more of these. It's nobody's fault or anything but their mass fantasy game was pretty much it for so long and the notion of rank and file fantasy creatures outside of a mass combat game is still honestly a relatively new concept.

I broadly agree with you, but think the emphasis should be looked at the other way. I think GW is why we see so many GW-style orcs and goblins and ratmen and so forth (along with ex-GW sculptors doing the sculpting) but I think the reason we've seen the R&F skew almost entirely towards WHFB races is because people want to sell their figures to the biggest (Warhammer) crowd and so they chose to make "Mountain Orcs" rather than kobolds until now. Of course, achievable HIPS tooling for fantasy model makers is also a pretty new occurrence, so hopefully we'll see more of this going forward - and hopefully with better quality sculpts. There are lots of quality sculptors out there, after all.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 MLaw wrote:
Honestly, I was kinda laughing a bit about the painter thing it was meant as a joke and I was actually thinking of myself when I typed it. Being self-deprecating in the same thread I'm trying to maintain credibility seemed counterproductive when I typed it.. but I see now that my logic was flawed :(

Fair enough - there's no tone in the written word unless you make it quite explicit though - so it seemed quite a nasty and uncalled for snipe in general when I read it rather than a self-depreciating joke.