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Hi people, newish gamer got back into the hobby after 20 years out. Just wondering why everyone goes on and on about needing transports and heavy armour. Can someone let me know what they think the benefit is in simple terms, a bit more detail than they are cool and they are a must.

why exactly should i buy a land raider for my terminators? If they footslog across the board they can shoot every turn. The opposing player is going to fire X amounts of shots so i am just trying to get the best amount of bang for my points and can't see the need for spending 250 points on something with only 3 shots.

I am playing Space marines at the moment and i have only played against Tyranids but looking to get a well rounded army so i can compete against others.

Thanks in advance

You don't.

Marines have several competitive options that include no vehicles.

The only "Need" for having a vehicle/tank is your list/playstyle requires one.

For example, if all you wanna do is run jump troops and scouts, you don't need vehicles, but if you want the most out of a unit of TH/SS terminators, a LR is key. (this is simply because you don't want to have to roll saves for them, lasguns kill terminators after all)

 juraigamer wrote:
The only "Need" for having a vehicle/tank is your list/playstyle requires one.

For example, if all you wanna do is run jump troops and scouts, you don't need vehicles, but if you want the most out of a unit of TH/SS terminators, a LR is key. (this is simply because you don't want to have to roll saves for them, lasguns kill terminators after all)

But my point is the opposition will use their Lasguns on something, i would rather have them use it on something with an invul save. Surley they wouldn't risk shooting a LR only pen on a 6 and therefore go after one of my other units?

But the thing is, you won't be coming up against a single Lasgun, you'll be going up against 20, maybe 30 shots from a single unit, which will easily account for a couple of Terminators per turn. Putting them in a Land Raider makes you immune to Lasgun fire.
It's also a bit of a psychological threat. Think about it; your Land Raider can only fire 5 shots a turn, but imagine how much fire the opponent's going to pour into it. Taking vehicles in some cases isn't about the sheer offensive power or even what it contains, it's also about providing a distraction for the enemy, allowing the other elements of your force to advance with less incoming fire.

However, on the other hand it's completly down to your playstyle. My 1500pt CSM force has no vehicles at all, yet it's at a 6/2/1 W/D/L ratio. It's completly down to what else is in your force as well. I have Melta Raptors to deal with enemy armour, Obliterators to kill pretty much anything, and Abaddon to take down characters/deathstars. You have to consider what you also have in your force when deciding wherever to include armour or not.

A 150 point squad of guants can shoot a 200 point squad of terminators off the board in 2 turns or tye them up for ages in an assault. But them in a transport and you can about deliver them to the target unit.

Main issue is 6e has so many armies that bring such heavy ranged fire that nasty assault units with out transport or serious speed (bikes,beasts) are just erased before they get a chance to do what you paid for. And to be honest you probably wont even get the 3 shots out of the Raider because you will be to busy racing it towards a target.

But the raider can only move 6" and shoot or 12" and take snap shots. I can move terms 6" each turn and use the extra 250 points to increase the squad to a full 10 terms with assault cannon any cml. that way I get 18 storm bolter shots, 4 a and 4cml shots.


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That way by having a squad of 10 they have a lot more survivability.


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Position can teleport them in for free.


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Plus I can* even

Termis in spesific can't just walk, because they are just too slow.
Everything worth reaching is faster then they are, or don't consider them a threat.
Crisis suits, warp spiders, etc, could avoid you with ease.
Guard blob would drown you in so many rolls some enough would fail.

In order to get the job done a unit must either be with long reach, high mobility, virtual indestructibility (as in, too hard to kill on time) or pure speed. lack them, and you will never get anything done, especially when some enemy units got several.

Transports grant you that speed and added layer of protection until you get where you want to be.
Tanks tend to have both durability and firepower, and at times speed as well.

What your not catching is that you are making them immune to a class of weapons until the anti armour weapons can crack the metal box. Land raiders are usually not taken for a termie squad that has ranged weapons. Additionally the only termies that can take TH/SS and a CML are deathwing which are always walked or DWA. For DA the only units that should be in land raiders are command squads and deathwing knights. For all other space marine armies;

Taking 5 TH/SS Termies in a Land Raider vs taking 10 TH/SS termies really boils down to getting 5 TH/SS into the enemy most of the time vs getting 1-2 TH/SS termies into the enemy and having validated those lasguns by letting them kill termies. Most of the time lasguns will not have anything better to fire at and letting lasguns kill TH/SS termies is a big waste of points on your behalf as you waste that 3++ you paid for.

Land raiders can move 12" and fire one weapon at full BS. Additionally the side sponsons on most of the land raiders are TL weapons meaning reroll misses.

You also seem to be indicating that people are putting tactical termies into land raiders which BTW is silly.

Well it's not just las guns out there there days, it's riptides and wraithknights. Foots logging marines or termies are not going to stand up to that.

Look at it this way, EVERYONE loves terminators in theory. They're big, have cool armor, and a cool name. If footslogging them Across the board worked, everyone would be doing it. I know a few guys who still try it because they love their termies so much. They don't do very well.

 ansacs wrote:
What your not catching is that you are making them immune to a class of weapons until the anti armour weapons can crack the metal box. Land raiders are usually not taken for a termie squad that has ranged weapons. Additionally the only termies that can take TH/SS and a CML are deathwing which are always walked or DWA. For DA the only units that should be in land raiders are command squads and deathwing knights. For all other space marine armies;

Taking 5 TH/SS Termies in a Land Raider vs taking 10 TH/SS termies really boils down to getting 5 TH/SS into the enemy most of the time vs getting 1-2 TH/SS termies into the enemy and having validated those lasguns by letting them kill termies. Most of the time lasguns will not have anything better to fire at and letting lasguns kill TH/SS termies is a big waste of points on your behalf as you waste that 3++ you paid for.

Land raiders can move 12" and fire one weapon at full BS. Additionally the side sponsons on most of the land raiders are TL weapons meaning reroll misses.

You also seem to be indicating that people are putting tactical termies into land raiders which BTW is silly.

No I'm not suggesting I would put tac term in a LR. Tac terms offer me a different option as a much more robust std tact squad although they don't seem to be in the "META" mix at the moment, which is fine by me.

But i think you are just referring to close combat TH/SS or LC terms. Again i can';t see the benefit of having 5 in a LR over having 10 teleport on to the board. They can then move 6" and then run if needed, and then charge.

It's just my option and i admit i am newish at this game but i can't see any distinct strong arguments against this, it just seems to be the fashionable thing to do. I am a big advocate of boys over toys in 40K



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 BoomWolf wrote:
Termis in spesific can't just walk, because they are just too slow.
Everything worth reaching is faster then they are, or don't consider them a threat.
Crisis suits, warp spiders, etc, could avoid you with ease.
Guard blob would drown you in so many rolls some enough would fail.

In order to get the job done a unit must either be with long reach, high mobility, virtual indestructibility (as in, too hard to kill on time) or pure speed. lack them, and you will never get anything done, especially when some enemy units got several.

Transports grant you that speed and added layer of protection until you get where you want to be.
Tanks tend to have both durability and firepower, and at times speed as well.

Thanks for this but i don't understand. If i am using tac terms then i am going to advance 6" and then shoot with 25 shots on a squad of 10 terms.

If i have CC terms then i am going to deepstricke and then the following turn move, run and then charge, a potential range of 18". What i am saying is i would rather take 10 guys than 5 with transport to let me fail some of those rolls.

You can't assault the turn you teleport in.

Normal order of actions goes like this.

10 TH/SS terminators deep strike in, without a teleport homer, scatters 4/6th of the time, possibly mishapping.

You can't move after deepstriking, so therefore you run, say on average 3 inches.

Opponent than takes his turn, moves outside your 6 +2d6 charge range and shoots you killing x number.

2nd turn you are out of range of charging, you move, run, sit there.

Opponent 2nd turn, they move outside your new 6 +2d6 charge range, shoot you killing x more.

ECT


The reason why terminators inside land raiders is better is because they move faster to set up a charge turn 2-3. Also while your running your terminators into charge range your not getting shot to death.

Even very basically it add and extra 6 inches to your charge range, because the tank can move 6 you disembark 6 and than charge 2d6.

tiber55 wrote:
You can't assault the turn you teleport in.

Normal order of actions goes like this.

10 TH/SS terminators deep strike in, without a teleport homer, scatters 4/6th of the time, possibly mishapping.

You can't move after deepstriking, so therefore you run, say on average 3 inches.

Opponent than takes his turn, moves outside your 6 +2d6 charge range and shoots you killing x number.

2nd turn you are out of range of charging, you move, run, sit there.

Opponent 2nd turn, they move outside your new 6 +2d6 charge range, shoot you killing x more.

ECT


The reason why terminators inside land raiders is better is because they move faster to set up a charge turn 2-3. Also while your running your terminators into charge range your not getting shot to death.

Even very basically it add and extra 6 inches to your charge range, because the tank can move 6 you disembark 6 and than charge 2d6.

Yes, what he said.

Another thing to add is you can't run and charge in the same turn if that was the plan.

Also when you terminators are out even at turn 1 your looking at mid-field positions by the 12" move. By being mid-field first turn your opponent has to kill them or find another route or flank to attack from. With that you can shift a battle into your control forcing your opponent to have to do something unplanned.

Terminators are tough to kill and so are landraiders. By fielding both with the initial move and separating them now you force your opponent to deal with two equally tough units separately. One ten man squad of terminators will take heavy weapons plus the small arms the unit carries. Where the land raider is immune to most squad based weaponry.

The difference is;
1) DS 10 termies is a large footprint. Put down 10 40mm bases and see how easy it is to fit. So when you DS you cannot get into prime positions and need to DS relatively far from enemy units.
2) You have a turn in the open after you DS in. This means if you DS near most enemies you the enemy can move chaff up to block and whittle you down.
3) DS requires reserves. This means that is you are not DWA (which is one of armies nobody uses LRs) you may not get your 500+ pts unit until turn 4 which cannot assault until turn 5. If that happens the game is probably over with them contributing nothing.

You cannot run and assault. This means termies have a relatively limited ability to reposition after the first assault.

You keep vasalating between tactical termies and assault termies. The reason for taking a transport is dependent on the unit and so taking one for an assault squad is a totally different propostion to taking one for a tactical squad.

Yes you can not assault out of Deepstrike, so DS a unit of CC terminators is suicide. A landraider is clearly the better option for reasons as others have said. If you want to DS termies, do it with tac ones because atleast they can shoot. But then again, you will be in rapid fire range most likely and many armies there days have lots of ap2 which tac termies are vulnerable against compared to TH/SS ones.

Also if you DS termies, DW is the better option with more reliable reserves via DWA and Belials homer, and having twin linked weps upon arrival.

to OP: I suggest getting in a few games with your intended termie payloads vs. some friends. It will be the most immediate way to come to grips with how they operate in the new edition. I don't know about your meta, but theres just way too much AP2 out there these days

 DarknessEternal wrote:
You don't.

Marines have several competitive options that include no vehicles.

I must be missing them, because outside of a pure Deathwing/Dragiowing list, which is on the low end of competitive, I can't think of a serious list with no vehicles (drop pods, skimmers, rhino, flyers, etc). And neither of those are C:SM.

My good friend Aspartame uses an Imperial Fists list with no vehicles except for a sternguard drop pod. Lots of bodies, lots of terminators, Tigurius and Lysander.

He usually wins all his games and when we play each other it goes back and forth.

 Brometheus wrote:
My good friend Aspartame uses an Imperial Fists list with no vehicles except for a sternguard drop pod. Lots of bodies, lots of terminators, Tigurius and Lysander.

He usually wins all his games and when we play each other it goes back and forth.

That was about as close as I could think of also, but you still have that drop pod in there.

True, friend. But that 35pts in that 2500 list can easily be removed

madd_leeroy wrote:
No I'm not suggesting I would put tac term in a LR. Tac terms offer me a different option as a much more robust std tact squad although they don't seem to be in the "META" mix at the moment, which is fine by me.

But i think you are just referring to close combat TH/SS or LC terms. Again i can';t see the benefit of having 5 in a LR over having 10 teleport on to the board. They can then move 6" and then run if needed, and then charge.

It's just my option and i admit i am newish at this game but i can't see any distinct strong arguments against this, it just seems to be the fashionable thing to do. I am a big advocate of boys over toys in 40K

Regardless of whether you're using Tac Terminators or Assault Terminators, if you deep strike they can either Run or Shoot the turn they arrive by deep strike that means you've got a unit sitting around in the open for a single turn, which with the amount of high strength AP 1 and 2 guns there are in the game, this is not something you want to see happen. There's nothing worse than putting your deathstar unit on the board just to see it gunned down by a unit that cost half the price. Shooty terminators are okay if you can get them in a spot where they will destroy a high priority target or two when they arrive, but Assault Terminators are too slow and too big of a target to just put them out there where your opponent can just fire on them without issue. The Land Raider and it's variants are more than just a cool toy to put on the table. The Godhammer (basic Lascannon variant) is more of a long range fire base. Put something in it, deliver it to where it needs to go, and then harass with lascannon shots. The Redeemer and Crusader variants are better for the Assault Terminator because of it's shorter ranged guns. The Hurricane Bolters, Flamestorm Cannons (that's their name right?), and Assault Cannons requires you to drive it forward across the board. This works to the advantage of the Termies because they wish to cross the board as fast as possible. So you move forward 12 inches firing 1 gun at full BS (probably your Assault Cannon), and try to pick some things off with the Hurricane Bolters, do it again and you're already 36 inches across the board. Termies get out 6 inches and then can charge thanks to the Land Raider's rules. This delivers your Assault Terminators where they need to be with minimal loss. Remember, there are a lot of guns in the game that can kill Terminators from massed lasgun fire to the very prevalent plasma and AP2, but there is not as much long distance fire that can kill a Land Raider, you force your opponent to focus on that 450-500 point unit (termies and LR) because that takes the focus off of the other 1500 points of your army.

Because nightscythes, ghost arks and annihilation barges are the freaking bomb yo! That gak is mad tight!

Transports protect your gibbins from blasts. Vindicators love footslogging TDA, as do most shooting armies.

It depends on your playstyle and who you're fighting against. The main case for transports and Heavy Armor transports now is the large volume of high AP weapons and High AP Blast weapons people are fielding now. A Tactical Squad with a Plasma Cannon can wipe out half a Terminator squad a turn. It depends on what you want out of them, and how you're going to play them. Generally walking them across the board is going to bring everything down on them at some point or another.

I personally only use 1 Rhino, 1 Landspeeder, and a 3 Man bike squad. My terminators and Jump Pack troops all deepstrike behind or in locations that are vital, so I don't need the Land Raider. If you want a massive troop based army, go for it.

barnowl wrote:

 DarknessEternal wrote:
You don't.

Marines have several competitive options that include no vehicles.

I must be missing them, because outside of a pure Deathwing/Dragiowing list, which is on the low end of competitive, I can't think of a serious list with no vehicles (drop pods, skimmers, rhino, flyers, etc). And neither of those are C:SM.

White Scars biker lists don't seem to miss vehicles much.

If you can build list that is effective without any vehicles you actually grant yourself a pretty significant advantage. Essentially, you force your opponent to use his anti-tank weapons against infantry, which is so inefficient that the points spent on melta (or whatever) can be considered to be wasted. Lascannons shooting at tac marines or bikes (any single wound model, really) are a waste, so you've got a 10 or so point advantage over your enemy right off the bat. Even if you use drop pods or rhinos, this advantage is largely still in place, since you usually don't care if those get blown up after they've moved once. You might be invalidating 5-10% of the points in the opposing list right of the bat by forgoing armor, or by taking armor not really worth killing.

The flip side, of course, is that this makes opposing anti-infantry weapons much better. Thunderfires, heavy bolters, assault cannons and other weapons that aren't particularly effective v armor (or bolters/lasguns which are mostly valueless v anything with an AV) will now be able to damage everything you have in play. So, going extreme on either all or no tanks can offer an advantage, but you'll see that most of the best lists combine vehicles, infantry and monstrous creatures (where available) is ways that lets each element attack the enemy in ways that support one another (infantry will limit your tanks exposure to anti-tank, tanks will limit fliers exposure to anti-air, or what have you).

Thanks for all the suggestions guys, I have played about 10 games against Nids and Space Wolves and the terms have made at least their points back. I think many of you are missing the point that i want to use the large central squad of tac terminators to tank wounds while my other units are taking objectives and attacking units unmolested.

I do appreciate all of the comments but apart from the fact that a deepstriking unit cannot assault i can't see huge plusses for spending 250 points on a LR.

Thanks for the feedback though

I think many of you are missing the point that i want to use the large central squad of tac terminators to tank wounds while my other units are taking objectives and attacking units unmolested.

I think you're missing the point that any competent opponent will simply ignore your 400+ point unit and kill the rest of your army, since 16-18 storm bolter + heavy weapon shots/turn aren't really very scary, and anything you charge with them (should you ever get close enough) will be completely overkilled.

madd_leeroy wrote:
Thanks for all the suggestions guys, I have played about 10 games against Nids and Space Wolves and the terms have made at least their points back. I think many of you are missing the point that i want to use the large central squad of tac terminators to tank wounds while my other units are taking objectives and attacking units unmolested.

I do appreciate all of the comments but apart from the fact that a deepstriking unit cannot assault i can't see huge plusses for spending 250 points on a LR.

Thanks for the feedback though

Yeah, this is literally impossible against most competent opposition. The terminators pose such little threat, that your troops will in no way be protected by them. In older editions of the game, which forced leadership tests to fire at any unit other than the closest, this could have a chance. In modern 40k, it does not.

Overall, the main issue here is really the idea of using terminators at all. If you want to goof around and have fun, ok, they are fun. No dispute there. But, you will not be likely to win this way, so keep that in mind and try not to be frustrated about the losses when they come.

Using terminators already creates a handicap. Using Shootinators is even worse. a 5 Man Squad w/ Assault Cannon puts out 8 Bolter Shots and 4 Assault Cannon Shots a turn. That's not gonna cut it. Tau plasma fire at Rapid Fire Range will destroy it.
It will do this.... 2x Plasma Guns
- 4 Shots in Rapid Fire
- 2 Hits
- 1.66 Wounds
- 1.0956 Dead Terminators
- 43.824 Points Dead

Rapid Fire Lasguns....
- 20 Shots in Rapid Fire
- 10 Hits
- 3.33 Wounds
- .5547 Kills
- 22.19 Points Dead

Considering that you'll have groups of 3 Crisis Suits and large amounts of Guardsmen well.... when somebody uses Plasma Cannons....

You don't need vehicles, and you don't need tanks, and you don't need other specific types of vehicles either. The Imperium is founded on the common, hardworking muscles of everyday men and women. And space marines. Technology is only a means to an ends, a fallible snarl of tangled wires and motor oil. A soldier needs nothing more than their own two legs to transport them to battle, and no more than balled fists and maybe a large rock to bash in the heads of their foes.

Vehicles will break down, they will run out of gas, they will get hit by a Stunned result. They will explode for no reason and fry half of their brave cargo in their own juices. Some sneaky git will swat your vehicle in the rear armor with a stick and blow out its tracks.

You can't put Immobilized results on a squad of marching, jogging, power-walking marines. If someone hits your squad with a meltagun, it won't suddenly erupt into a fireball and flip over dramatically. It will just melt a little. That vehicle has three hull points? Well this tactical squad has ten hull points. You have a main gun and two sponsons? This ork mob has thirty main guns. And its sponsons are power klaws.

Vehicles are the crutch of a lazy general. Vehicles cost $37.25. Vehicles can't just be basecoated and washed, you have to do more. Troops will win you battles. They will win you wars. They will look serviceable on the tabletop with a coat of blue and a wash. A badab black wash. Discard your high maintenance vehicles, and put all boots to the ground. March forward in rank formation, charge on motorcycles and on horses. Leap forward with rocket-powered backpacks, and always run in the shooting phase. Down with the vehicle regime, vive les marcheurs.

This is 6th edition, you don't need them.

Some armies benefit from vehicles, mainly because of their undercosted firepower. For instance, it is hard to make a competitive Eldar list without at least two Wave Serpents, or a Necron army without a few Night Scythes. Aside from these two, there are very few near compulsory tanks/transports/flyers. Maybe throw in Helldrakes and Vendettas as examples of "armor too good to pass up."

Skyrays, Manticores, and Battlewagons are examples of other efficient armor. These are a bit less auto include though.