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So, splitting this off from an SOB-related topic in 40K Background, as we were getting way off-topic....

General question for DH players:

Comparing the Sisters of Battle, as presented in the Inquisitor's Handbook (post-errata, which fixes several problems with the as-printed material) and their presentation in Blood of Martyrs, it seems to me that they went from being, basically, hard-core soldiers of the Ecclesiarchy with carapace (later power armor) and a bolt gun, with the occasional possibly-miraculous event to being magical girls in power armor handing out blessings and miracles like candy. I feel the miracle-worker aspect of the SOB has overshadowed their function as soldiers of the Imperial Faith.

This has come up in a campaign I'm running (blog and wikia for it linked in my sig) in that a player has built a SOB-lite out of a combat-oriented Cleric, using the expanded Faith rules in Blood of Martyrs and the occasional purchase of other Faith Talents through Elite Advances. While I don't have a problem with the character, as is, or the player, as they are very good at RPing a devoted cleric in an irradiated, war-torn world.... I am wondering if others feel if BOM did not, perhaps, go overboard with the miracle and the faith talents?

Thanks for splitting off this thread.
Right now, I am trying to get my hands on some of the books (especially Blood of Martyrs which none of my friends own) so I can read up the magical girl stuff...^^

The book itself is a fun read for the set-up of the Ecclesiarchy in the DH setting of 40K, and it does well in providing various cults and factions within the Ecclesiarchy to prevent two PC Clerics from being carbon copies of one another (unless they want to be).

Combined with the Radical's Handbook and Disciples of the Dark Gods, you can get some pretty interesting Ecclesiarchy action going, with members of the Red Redemption running around, purging everyone they see with a flamer for some suspected taint of corruption, moderate clerics trying to keep the city from burning down, demagogues whipping crowds of Imperial citizens into frenzied, frothing mobs of religious fanatics, and, in the shadows, fallen priests and the disciplies of Chaos working their subtle plots to engineer the downfall of thousands. In fact, with the core book, BoM, IHB, DotDG and RHB, you could craft an entire Ecclesiarchal campaign, requiring every character involved to be some sort of Ecclesiarchal member of some kind, whether that's as Frateris Militia, a Sister of Battle, various kinds of Clerics, members of the Red Redemptionists or the Recongregators, Fallen Priests or Apostate Tech-Priests, Drill Abbots or members of a Corrupted Schola.

Psienesis wrote:I am wondering if others feel if BOM did not, perhaps, go overboard with the miracle and the faith talents?

Well, I already ranted about this a bit in the other thread, and have done so elsewhere, but just for the sake of completion ... yes.

Obviously, it all comes down to a matter of preferences and interpretation, meaning how one sees the Adepta Sororitas. If one likes the idea of "divine magic" in a setting where everything used to be explainable by psychic phenomena, and if one prefers to see Battle Sisters as armoured space wizards rather than crack church troops with badass willpower, then they will like the BoM version more. I am not amongst them, and I think the portrayal of the Sisters was hurt both narratively as well as mechanically, even compared to the earlier Inquisitor's Handbook which - imho - did a much better job in catching their paladinesque vibe, in addition to making for a more balanced inclusion into a standard DH group.

The problems extend beyond the use of Faith, but since Faith is the topic here I shall focus on that:

What used to be ambiguous and unclear and thus in line with the original studio material (miracle or force of will? superstition or coincidence?) was turned into something that can leave zero doubt that a thus-blessed character wields a supernatural holy power. Apart from nullifying the Sororitas' badassness in "being normal", it also creates potential narrative problems when you come across Marines - if all Sisters had these undeniably powerful powers, how is it possible that there is even a single Astartes left who actually doubts the Emperor is a god?

Mechanically, the rules also seem to present a messy dependence on Faith talents to augment one's own abilities, given how what's left of the various useful martial advances has skyrocketed in XP cost. It essentially turns the Sister into a sort of "buff whore" (to use an MMO term), and to top it off the extremely useful bonuses of her Acts also carry over to party members whose beliefs the Sister would regard as heretical, such as the Mechanicus Tech-Priest - resulting in the weird scenario of having heretics "leech" additional power from the faithful, whilst of course not at all being required to have a change of heart.

Some of the Acts are also more powerful than it might be healthy for a normal Dark Heresy campaign, although I just couldn't force myself to actually try them out, so I lack practical experience in just how devastating they may be. Judging from the effects, however, some of them do look fairly impressive.

To top it off, anyone can take these Acts of Faith now just by witnessing something weird. What, in addition to being an important aspect of an elite army, used to be the result of a lifelong indoctrination and an incredibly harsh monastic regime has become an on/off switch for 2nd rate zealots and delusional Guardsmen.


Together with all the other issues of this book (fluff description, equipment stats and availability, character advancement), Blood of Martyrs was thus a bitter disappointment, especially as I had foolishly high hopes and expectations of it. It's sad because the book did actually have some very cool background and some very good ideas in other places, but ultimately, for me everything good got overshadowed by this new D&D'esque divine magic and the power creep (that has since reached a new climax in the Book of Judgement - who needs bolters when you can get an Arbites shotgun).

In the end, it was what prevented further Dark Heresy purchases for me, as I just couldn't bring myself to appreciate the direction this game was moving to. Fortunately, there will always be the option of houserules. Or ignoring Blood of Martyrs (and the Book of Judgement, and Daemon Hammer) entirely and simply sticking to the Inquisitor's Handbook.

/rant

I grabbed a pdf and had a look at it, and it really is quite interesting for setting up an Ecclesiarchy retinue of an Ordo Haereticus Inquisitor. I found it fascinating that even Repentias (they are a favourite of mine, I admit it) have their place. I looked a bit at the faith talents, too and found the Emperor's sign talents quite nice (the lower talents are quite subtle in some places and not too much like magic), but the other "paths" seemed to me a bit hardcore. It is good that they cost quite a bit in terms of points... but now that I have them, I'd like to imbue my favourite cleric character with some of them

I like it. I like the fact that the super-natural 'divine intervention' that seems to affect the Imperium is made manifest with the Sisters of Battle.

Space magic? Not at all.

I'm thinking of house-ruling in some limitations, because I find the presence of Faith Powers can get, very quickly, out of hand. I'm thinking of, amongst some other ideas, either limiting them to a total of 1/2 the character's WP Bonus, excluding them from purchase by Elite Advance, or requiring some sort of preparatory process by which the person enacting the Faith Talent "builds up" their faith.

Or maybe a simple percentile dice-roll that determines whether or not the Emperor is even paying attention. If we're going to go with the divine magic aspect of them, then Faith Talents aren't something the character does, they are something that the God-Emperor does through the character. The character, in this case, should not have an active role in the manifestation of those miracles. They should be something that happens at dramatic moments, or something that fits into a narrative based around some momentous effect. Using the "ignores Fatigue" miracle to drag a bunch of bodies out into the desert because it's convenient seems a bit... too convenient?

I've had to curtail some Faith actions in my game group, because they were activating them like buffs, for "just in case" situations. I pointed out that the God-Emperor does not give you a tool you may not need.

Too, yes, it has rendered the character(s) who have them into being all but reliant on those miracles. With their ability to ignore fatigue, corruption, gain Unnatural Agility, glow with golden radiance and other party-tricks, they've taken to avoiding conflicts if they don't have the Fate Points to spend to activate the powers.

While I think the original designers had the idea that tying them to Fate Point expenditure would limit their appearance, in most games, going straight by the book, the party is laughably over-powered compared to most enemies by Rank 5 or 6. These buffs just become icing on the cake, unless and until you throw them up against an adversary that is of a similar rank (and with minions of similar ranks) to the PCs.

They also become something of a problem when you have two groups capable of using Faith Talents fighting each other. This gets into a morally murky area, as (narratively speaking) both of these groups can't be right. Yet, the build of characters allows you to have Clerics on one side fighting against Clerics on the other side, both of whom have access to Faith Talents.

This is going to become a problem in my campaign when the PCs escort their NPC to a place where she's supposed to be reincarnated as, or made the vessel of, a reborn Saint (kind of like the girl who became reborn Saint Sabbat in the Gaunt series). The place that needs to happen is called the Sky Shrine, and just so happens to be sitting next to a pre-war Imperial fortress that is currently populated by the Order of the Argent Blade, the surviving descendants/inheritors of the Sisters of Battle who arrived on the planet a thousand years ago with the Liberation Fleet. They also have a Dreadnought of the Black Templars hanging out with them, because where else would he go in the Wastelands?

Did I mention that the cult the PCs support makes heavy use of psykers, none of whom are Sanctioned because there's no way to Sanction psykers on this planet? That's going to cause some problems when they meet with the Order.... just as planned.

As I usually play Dark Heresy with a bunch of people who say story before rules, the thing with overuse of the faith system is not a real problem. Sure, there might be some powergamer who pushes all experience he gets into faith talents, but in the end he lacks at other places (I think it's quite balanced). A GM might also limit the use of such "powers" within a specific area (like in "Hammer&Anvil, where the Sisters feel cut off from their spirituality during their time in the necrontyr Obsidian Moon) or with the more banal explanation "yes the Emperor likes you, but he cannot admire your faithfulness every two hours" if you get my drift.^^ Or you say: "Thou hast been wavering in thy belief and thine duties towards our undying Lord the God Emperor. Mend thy ways and the light of the Golden Throne shall shine upon thee again!"
Also, I think there is no need to complain that there will be a complete Pure Faith gaming group (which is possible, true, but unlikely), and even if that happens, it is not like everyone gets it... I mean, those are Inquisitorial acolytes we're talking about. True, the explanation who gets it how is a wee bit whacky, but that's where a good GM comes in to save the day I rather have a whole group of faithful than an army of psykers behind every corner... (though that can be fun too, if the setting is right).

It's not that every member of the party gets it, it's that every member of the party benefits from it, tying into what Lynata said earlier about being "buff whores". Even the faithless Tech-Priest and the Psyker. They all get these benefits.

It's true, too, because the Sisters are largely limited, outside of their Faith Talents, from being any different from any other character of a similar Rank/XP total with a bolter, a flamer or a melta. FFG has kind of put all of the Sister's ducks in a row with the Faith Talents, and has left them on poor footing in other respects. even compared to other, combat-oriented classes.

Hell, certain Psyker builds will eat a Sister for lunch, as will DCAs of any stripe. Though, the DCA is pretty OP anyway, when it comes to melee combat.

Oh, that seems to be something I overlooked, sorry. I just realised we never had "Buff Whores" in our parties... stange.
You can have some nasty Sister build if you ignore the faith talents... but that wouldn't be the same somehow.
I have a wee bitty experience with psykers, and I have to agree with you... they can start out quite mean and keep getting more wicked along the way (some of mine started at WIL 50+ lvl1...)

With some tweaks, or a blend of BoM and IHB, I think a perfectly viable Sister build can be made, but it's going to need to limit some of the Faith Talents, perhaps introducing at Rank 5 or 6 a "Choose one" buy of a Faith Talent tree, which then determines what Faith Talents that Sister can buy throughout her career. This may, I think, limit the "buffer" aspect of the current version, while also allowing a player to choose to be that kind of Sister, if they want to be, without being so OTT.

Going to have to sit down with the books and see what I can hammer out, because there's a lot of good stuff in BOM, just rather too much cheese on top of it.

The limitations are already there - Fate points. They're few and far between so spending them is a real choice, and some of the abilities require the Sisters player to burn fate, which means it's gone for good.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
I like it. I like the fact that the super-natural 'divine intervention' that seems to affect the Imperium is made manifest with the Sisters of Battle.

It's interesting to me in that it's another one of the Imperium's little ironies that the Emperor seems to devote more energy to protecting and helping the Sisters, who didn't exist until a few thousand years psot-heresy, than the Space Marines who have some vague claims to the Emperor's lineage in a way. This is the angle I'd want to play up in any work containing SoBs and SM: The SM know they're the sons (by ultra-tech surgery/genetic therapy/whatever) of the Primarchs, who are the sons (again, tech-enhanced of the Emperor. But then again, so are the Chaos traitors. On the other hand, [i]something[/]i is certainly helping these 'Daughters of the Emperor' pull off things normal humans shouldn't be able to do. The SM are probably a bit frustrated about this. The SoBs are probably a bit snotty as well.

Then again in my personal canon I tend to feel that the SoB are 'allowed' in part as a counter to Space Marines. If a SM Chapter goes rogue, it's bad. Even if it's not going over to Chaos (Maybe the Chapter has adopted a lesser heresy of working with Xenos and wants to create an autonomous region with more open trade), it's not going to be pretty. Sending in other SM chapters is dangerous (although some Horus Heresy fiction sets the Space Wolves up to fill this role) as Space Marines are still such a rare thing that even chapter rivalries may seem insignificant. You don't want the Knives of the Emperors to decide they're going to hang with a Tau offshoot, then send in the Bloody Ultradark Angelwolves in and they decide to throw in with them too... You've just doubled the problem.

So instead the Imperium can send in the SoB, who already have a long-term grudge with the Space Marines, can act independently, and are well-enough equipped to at least nearly fight in the same weight class. Assassins are too surgical (but would likely be dispatched as well), the Guard isn't trusted (too used to being upstaged by Space Marines) and isn't equipped for digging power-armored troops out of fortress-monasteries. (Battle Tanks don't fit down corridors.) It'll be bloody... Expect at least five Sisters dead for every Space Marine dug out, maybe 10 if we're talking the usual fiction version of Space Marines. But that's OK: There's a lot of Sisters, they're easy to replace, and they probably do have some Imperial Guard units handling perimeter security and backup.

While I like that approach from a narrative stance, in the mechanics of the game, you don't need to be a Sister to get these Faith Talents. Any Cleric can get them, too, starting at like Rank 3 or 4. If you have a very permissive GM (I am not so permissive) anyone can buy "Pure Faith" as an Elite Advance, and then buy whatever Faith Talents they like, also through Elite Advances.

With the right GM, you could build a miracle-working Psyker who divides his Psychic talents between Biomancy and Telekinesis, who would be absolutely devastating in close combat, as well as able to keep himself and his allies on their feet through the worst firestorm, between Regenerate, Flesh Like Iron, and the various healing Powers and the various Faith Talents that grant Unnatural Agility (meaning they dodge volumes of incoming fire and explosives much more easily), various damage-ignoring or Toughness-enhancing powers, or the abilities to raise people from the dead.

However, fluff-wise, going as far back as their original appearance, the Sisters have always been the weapon of choice, in the post-Apostasy era, when putting down a rogue SM Chapter. It's why the power armor of the Sisters is described as "offering protection equal to" the Space Marines, and why they use the "holy trinity" of bolter, melta and flamer.

Incidentally, this is another area FFG screwed up in. I've had to go back and change bolt weapons to match an adjusted version of the Deathwatch bolter (which was, on initial release, *broken* as all hell) for non-SM characters, and change the AV of the Sisters' armor to match that of a Space Marine, less the bonus of their Black Carapace.

 Psienesis wrote:
Incidentally, this is another area FFG screwed up in. I've had to go back and change bolt weapons to match an adjusted version of the Deathwatch bolter (which was, on initial release, *broken* as all hell) for non-SM characters, and change the AV of the Sisters' armor to match that of a Space Marine, less the bonus of their Black Carapace.

I'd personally be OK if it's slightly less strong than Astartes power armor. It's visibly thinner and presumably easier to make, doesn't have all the extras added in... Equal could be handwaved as either a simplistic view or a poorly worded phrase. Then again, back in the pre-Witch Hunters era, I was cool with the idea of making the Sisters the Imperium's 4+ armor army of choice, back when that would have been an interesting place to be. (Not sure if it is now... The idea at the time is that cheap 4+ armor units were mathhammered as being nearly as good as 3+ in most actual game situations.)

For an RPG, thinking as a GM I'd be cool with non-SoB getting 'faith' abilities as long as they get priority access, as it were. The SoB get the abiltiies, plus good gear, military training, etc. is still a clear character when compared to a Priest-type who maybe gets an occasional faith-power.

If the Sisters are intended to be the weapon of choice against rogue SM, as their Codices have stated, they're going to need to be able to take a bolter and keep fighting. Mainly, though, it's stated as being equal, in terms of defensive capabilities. It does not have the same support systems and other bits of technological wizardry that SM armor has, though.

Which makes sense, the Sisters are not intended to be the strike force that the SM are, and are not intended to find themselves in the broad range of situations a SM might find himself. The Sisters, for example, are not expected to jump out of an airlock to engage Xenos in hand-to-hand combat while floating in space.

Part of the problem with the BOM-presentation of the Sisters is that, without the Faith Powers, they're not given much else. Sure, they can get some wargear and power armor for free from an Ecclesiarchal armory... but by Rank 6 or 7, in most games, any PC can buy Power Armor from any Forge World (assuming, of course, that the GM makes it commercially available). Boltguns are boltguns, meltas are meltas and flamers are... decent weapons at low-levels, later on becoming far too easy to avoid taking damage from (this weapon does not make an attack roll). The supposed military prowess of the Sisters is not particularly different from someone playing a Guardsman. Shoot, by Rank 6 or 7, any Tech-Priest PC can build a suit of power armor, and make it better than anything that rolls off an assembly line.

Which I can understand, from a balance perspective (though DH is not a game that exhibits much internal balance) that a Sister should not be, even without Faith Powers, far and away above every other combat-focused character. However, there should be some Talents or abilities in there, somewhere, that provides some situational edges, representing that the Sisters of Battle do two things: they pray, and they train.

While the Sister character does get a few talents that allow rerolling Fear and Pinning tests (which I think serves well to represent their willpower and fearlessness) and similar effects, Guardsmen can get the same thing in their class builds.

And, too, while a GM can tweak things and add/remove things to suit his or her tastes for the vibe of their games, if it was presented in the book originally, it simply saves the GM some time, not to mention headaches when one or more players wants to argue it in one direction or the other.

Psienesis wrote:If the Sisters are intended to be the weapon of choice against rogue SM, as their Codices have stated, they're going to need to be able to take a bolter and keep fighting. Mainly, though, it's stated as being equal, in terms of defensive capabilities. It does not have the same support systems and other bits of technological wizardry that SM armor has, though.

Yeah - I think a lot of people believe Marine armour to be more protective just because it's bulkier. However, back in the C:AoD, it was stated that the armoured plating is, at the thickest places, just up to an inch. You can easily slap this onto the Sisters without it notably affecting their shape. What makes the Marines so bulky isn't the armoured protection, it's their own naked physical form, and the tons of nifty, situational useful gadgets they are cramming into their suits.

If one were to go by GW's fluff, anyways.

Psienesis wrote:Which I can understand, from a balance perspective (though DH is not a game that exhibits much internal balance) that a Sister should not be, even without Faith Powers, far and away above every other combat-focused character. However, there should be some Talents or abilities in there, somewhere, that provides some situational edges, representing that the Sisters of Battle do two things: they pray, and they train.

In a way, it makes sense. If Faith would work more along the original material, as this is what represents the praying part and what gets added to their martial abilities - that's why I prefer IH so much, although I too think that tying AoF to Fate Points is a controversial thing to do at best. It means that rather than giving them a completely independent feature, you only upgrade one that is already there - and then force the player to choose. Assume a character has only 1 Fate Point; how likely are they to even attempt an AoF rather than saving it as an emergency Get Out of Death Free card? I'd rather tie it to the character's Willpower Bonus (although of course I am also biased in seeking a representation of the "it's not actually miracles" part of AoF). Either that, or make it something like the free Demeanours the Marine PCs get in DW.

Still, it's not all bad - look at the Seraphim. The "Hit & Run" talent is a fluffy, neat and unique ability that fits nicely to the unit. One of the few good things for Sisters in BoM. That there are not many of such unique talents could be justified by simply saying that being a Sister isn't the only way to get them. For Imperial servants, DH is fairly open when it comes to character evolution. In Only War, Sisters would be special just by having their signature equipment. In Dark Heresy, everyone can get power armour and bolters at some point. And when you consider that Sororitas training is partially emulating the Imperial Guard, there's just not much left other than their Faith and a few special moves in martial arts.

I'd be interested if anyone has ideas for more unique SoB talents, though. Maybe some could be "stolen" from the Deathwatch game, like the Battle Rage upgrade that lets you parry whilst Frenzied?

Battle Rage already exists in DH, it might be a post-Ascension talent, however.

IIRC, Hit and Run is the Seraphim equivalent of Assassin Strike, which is a Talent available to two other classes. Don't have my book immediately on hand, though, and I no longer memorize those kinds of details (that's why they print books!).

Though, a few that I have been bouncing around in my head for a bit, though these are not Faith Talents:

Bolter Drill: The Sister makes a Willpower test as a Free Action. If successful, the Sister may treat her bolter as having the Twin-Linked property for the next round. Every 2 degrees of success extend the duration of this effect for an additional round. This Talent may be used only when wielding a boltpistol, boltgun, heavy bolter or storm-bolter.

What this represents is the Sister's skill-at-arms allowing her to put more rounds on target when she decides to open up with her boltgun. With this property, the weapon inflicts 2 hits for every degree of success on the BS test, up to the weapon's maximum rate of fire, at twice the ammo consumption.

With the changes I have home brewed into my DH and DW games for bolters (bolts now do 2d10+4, Pen 5 damage, Tearing, regardless of who's carrying that bolter) that makes the Sister with a bolter dangerous, but also balanced by the fact that she's burning a whole lot of very expensive bullets to do so and requires a successful WP test to enact.

Pious Intolerance: Such is the Sister's fervor and zeal in purging the Imperium of the heretic, the mutant and the xeno, she can channel her hatred of these things into the strength of her weapons.

When facing any creature for whom the Sister has a Hatred Talent, she gains a +10 to attack tests (WS and BS), +2 damage, and +20 WP to resist any psychic or mind-affecting attack launched by the target of her hatred.

Psienesis wrote:IIRC, Hit and Run is the Seraphim equivalent of Assassin Strike, which is a Talent available to two other classes. Don't have my book immediately on hand, though, and I no longer memorize those kinds of details (that's why they print books!).

Hmm, kind of - though the Assassin has to do an Acrobatics test to Disengage as a Free Action, whereas the Seraphim just auto-succeeds but has to "pay" a Half or Full Action to Disengage.
It kind of fits, and though I've never tried it myself I think it could make for some cool combat moves. It basically allows you to Charge and fall back in a single turn.

Psienesis wrote:Pious Intolerance: Such is the Sister's fervor and zeal in purging the Imperium of the heretic, the mutant and the xeno, she can channel her hatred of these things into the strength of her weapons.
When facing any creature for whom the Sister has a Hatred Talent, she gains a +10 to attack tests (WS and BS), +2 damage, and +20 WP to resist any psychic or mind-affecting attack launched by the target of her hatred.

I really like this one, though I'd only apply it to melee weapons where the Sister could truly channel her rage into a strike, as if representing a temporary Strength increase. The Hatred talent already gives a bonus to the attack test, but perhaps this one could work like an upgrade for it, similar to how Battle Rage compares to Frenzy.
*makes a note* Thanks!

I feel the book is fine. The burn powers are crazy, but then again properly using/burning very valuable fate point faith stuffs means it makes for epic sessions.

I had a group get their vessel blown up, so they all jumped mid air. Sadly they forgot to restock parachutes, but have no fear, they pancake into the ground in the middle of a guard regiment, (resurrection faith power burn was used) then the religious hysteria faith power was used, bonus' from what just happened and the cleric actually gave a speech made it an epic session.

It could be sensible to restrict Pure Faith a bit more, but give the charakters that have it an extra faith-pool and still make the burning of a fate point compusory when using the burn powers.

juraigamer wrote:The burn powers are crazy, but then again properly using/burning very valuable fate point faith stuffs means it makes for epic sessions.

Depending on how epic you'd like your games to get, wait until one of your characters gets the "Miracle Worker" talent at Ascension.

Atropamin wrote:It could be sensible to restrict Pure Faith a bit more, but give the charakters that have it an extra faith-pool and still make the burning of a faith point compusory when using the burn powers.

Or burning a Fate Point instead. It'd probably fit better, otherwise it implies that the character becomes less faithful just after having been the subject of a "miracle".

But yeah ... I think I like that idea! I'd probably not use Burn Powers at all unless they are suitably "ambiguous", anyways - a (more limited) version of Resurrection could work nicely for this purpose. Essentially "upgrading" the effects of what would normally happen if you burn a Fate Point to avoid death?

I've also been thinking about converting the Acts of Faith from GW's Inquisitor game:

Fearsome: The character summons all her confidence and hate to conjure an almost tangible aura of sacred terror. Enemies that attempt to charge the character must pass a Willpower test or stand rooted on their spot for the rest of their turn. Enemies that are charged by or already are in melee combat with the character must pass a Willpower test or receive a -10 penalty to WS for the remainder of their turn. This effect lasts for a number of rounds equal to the character's Willpower Bonus.

Frenzy: The character immediately enters a holy rage, gaining all the advantages and disadvantages of the Frenzy talent for a number of rounds equal to the character's Willpower Bonus, or until her chosen enemy is slain. Upon triggering this Act of Faith, the character must designate an enemy she will focus on. This does not have to be the closest enemy. Other enemies may attempt to intercept the character as she closes in on her target, at which point she may attack them with the same zeal and affiliated effects.

Regeneration: The character utters a quick prayer and loses a level of Fatigue.

Word of the Emperor: The character spends her major action preaching from the Imperial Creed; enemies within earshot must pass a Willpower test or lose their next major action as they recover from nervousness. Daemonic creatures which fail the test are instead stunned for 1d3 turns.

Oh, sorry. I MEANT fate point burning... edited it.

 Psienesis wrote:
Incidentally, this is another area FFG screwed up in. I've had to go back and change bolt weapons to match an adjusted version of the Deathwatch bolter (which was, on initial release, *broken* as all hell) for non-SM characters, and change the AV of the Sisters' armor to match that of a Space Marine, less the bonus of their Black Carapace.

Why do you assume Sister Bolters are the same as Marine Bolters? Becuase all Bolters are the same in 40K? This is an RPG, where the granularity and differences between similar weapons can be represented far better than a skirmish wargame using a D6 system.

And you didn't go and give Sisters AP10 torsos did you? Not all Power Armour is created equal. Marines get standard kit (as far as Mk.VII is concerned), but take a look at Black Crusade and you'll see that AP8 is the norm for power armour, and that the AP10 chest is something separate to that.

H.B.M.C. wrote:

Psienesis wrote:Incidentally, this is another area FFG screwed up in. I've had to go back and change bolt weapons to match an adjusted version of the Deathwatch bolter (which was, on initial release, *broken* as all hell) for non-SM characters, and change the AV of the Sisters' armor to match that of a Space Marine, less the bonus of their Black Carapace.

Why do you assume Sister Bolters are the same as Marine Bolters? Becuase all Bolters are the same in 40K? This is an RPG, where the granularity and differences between similar weapons can be represented far better than a skirmish wargame using a D6 system.

Perhaps he is simply following the Codex fluff that clearly stated their weapons are "equal", or because he has seen GW's own Inquisitor game that has just as much granularity as Dark Heresy and still gave everyone the same bolters (2d10+4).

Though, even with the 40k tabletop's d6 system, I would think that a flat 33% raw damage difference (average of 10.5 vs 14.5) would show in the profile.
This difference actually puts the "civilian" bolter closer to the lasgun (average raw damage of 8.5), and would therefore probably appear as a S3 AP5 weapon in a Codex.

It's not insofar a screw-up (back when I still erroneously believed in universal consistency I mistakenly thought the same) but rather just a different interpretation of the setting. Evidently the designers at FFG think that Battle Sisters just aren't that awesome, or that Marines are just much more awesomer. It could also be a mechanical necessity due to how wonky Toughness works in that system, though this does of course not change the end result, nor does it change the increasing "hype" in their background descriptions. Granted, you have this in Codex fluff as well, though generally not with such ... bluntness?
It makes one wonder how different things would look if the game would be balanced around Space Marines, rather than trying to balance Space Marines around a system apparently not created with them in mind. Or at least not the type of Marines they ultimately ended up with.

Or you think Sisters are more awesome than they really are.

Which seems more likely Lynata, given your history?

Sisters are more awesome than the rules give them credit seems a good compromise to me.

A boltround is a boltround. The size of the weapon firing it does not drastically alter its ballistic profile, especially not when most of the work is being done by this gyro-rocketed round alone.

There was no logical justification for an Astartes boltweapon being three times as effective as the boltweapons available to Inquisitors, Sisters of Battle, and other Imperial worthies.

I would accept the argument that an Astartes-class boltgun should offer some advantage, and I would agree that its better-than-Best-Quality craftsmanship and integrated systems should offer an increase to accuracy, reliability and similar secondary concerns, but the boltround itself is doing the bulk of the work in damaging the target. More successes on an attack roll do not generate more damage points in most cases in the FFG games (I cannot, in fact, think of a weapon, off-hand, that does, but I'm sure there's one tucked away in some supplement somewhere.)

There was also the reports I was getting from other GMs and Players on FFG's forums that were stating that the standard-issue DW bolter was consistently putting out more damage than any weapon of any other munition. It was more effective than missile launchers and lascannons against any foe. This was because of the way that the Tearing quality worked, in that it allowed for numerous "exploding tens", allowing a single burst of bolter rounds to potentially score over a hundred points of damage. Stack this possibility onto 4 or 5 Marines, and it was making the game the RPG equivalent of bolter-porn. Boring, for a lot of people.

However, as there are a few people in my usual gaming group that would whine if I set them all to DH levels, and I rather liked the obviously-impressive damage potential of the DW ones, I set it at 2d10 with Tearing, which in DH allows you to roll 1 extra d10 and choose the highest 2. Bolt weapons *should* be fearsome, but they should not be a weapon you reliably shoot a tank apart with.

H.B.M.C. wrote:Or you think Sisters are more awesome than they really are.
Which seems more likely Lynata, given your history?

I'm just following/repeating what I've read in GW's original material, because that's the version of Sisters I grew up with. I can gladly provide the relevant sources if you doubt my word.

But perhaps you think FFG can do no wrong. Which seems more likely, HBMC, given your history?


Now, you can either try to actually address the points we raised, or continue to accuse any critics of "fanboyism" in a poor attempt to discredit them. It's up to you.

Ya'll don't start that gak in my thread. This are Srs thread, for Srs DH Bzns.

I have, as a side project for a campaign setting I'm designing, sitting down with the DH books and working on making a "standardized" weapons table, coupled with a table of "options" that can be added to weapons (including, but not limited to, the upgrades and options currently available) that will have greater alterations on the weapon's profile.

For example, I'm taking the bog-standard lasgun out of the DH core book, and using that as the baseline for all other lasweapons. If you want a lasgun that offers full-auto and burst fire (S/3/6, for example), then that requires the "burst-fire" option as well as the "automatic fire" option, which increase both the cost of the weapon as well as reducing its overall Clip size, in this case from the standard 60 shots to 42 shots (loss of 30% Clip capacity, 10% for burst, 20% for full-auto) and also causes the loss of the Reliable trait for the full-auto option added in.

... of course, one could then pay for the upgrade "Bigger Magazines", increasing its clip size to 64 (+50%), but that makes those clips cost more.

When I'm done with it, players will be able to basically design their own weapons around the basic templates for pretty much any kind of weapon, whether its a lasgun, a boltpistol, a meltagun or a plasma cannon. Each weapon can conceivably have all sorts of jimcracks and geegaws affixed to it as weapon options. They could then even give it a name.

This will go a lot towards providing a somewhat-unified basis for weapons while also better-representing the thousands of Forges in the Imperium churning out all kinds of patterns of weapons. In the end, two PCs from different planets might both be carrying "lasguns", but one guy's "Gorgon Mk.III pattern lasrifle" will have a very different profile, over all, from another player's "St. Colombiana-pattern Deathlight longarm".