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Demons will wreck it however. Hide in the tower and skull cannons will pop him with d6 hits with d6 wounds and re-rolling to wound.

Plague drones can fly over your chaff and hammer through enough wounds.

Leave and be hunted.

hinge wrote:
Demons will wreck it however. Hide in the tower and skull cannons will pop him with d6 hits with d6 wounds and re-rolling to wound.

Plague drones can fly over your chaff and hammer through enough wounds.

Leave and be hunted.

Not exactly. Plague Drones hover, not fly. It's the 3rd turn that they can fly over units, and the 4th at best that they can charge.
Daemons don't need the fancy tricks; the rank and file core have magical attacks and can take him out inside the building.
But, the building does block the cannon shots and gives you a few turns for the rippers and chameleons to go after the cannons.

The real threat from daemons are the flesh hounds ambushing. T4 W2 6+ armor and 5++ with MR3 really limits what can intercept the ambush.

Oh, wow. Unless I'm missing something, the building doesn't block the cannon. In fact it amplifies it. The BRB specifically has a section on buildings and template weapons and uses the example of a cannon. Any UNIT that the template crosses takes D6 hits. It even uses the example of a cannon hitting a unit inside taking D6 hits multiplied by D6. If you got one unit inside he's going to take D6*D6 magic flaming wounds from the skullcannon. A building isn't an obstacle.

 DukeRustfield wrote:
Oh, wow. Unless I'm missing something, the building doesn't block the cannon. In fact it amplifies it. The BRB specifically has a section on buildings and template weapons and uses the example of a cannon. Any UNIT that the template crosses takes D6 hits. It even uses the example of a cannon hitting a unit inside taking D6 hits multiplied by D6. If you got one unit inside he's going to take D6*D6 magic flaming wounds from the skullcannon. A building isn't an obstacle.

You hide BEHIND the building when facing magical cannons. Can't fire at him if you can't see him.

-Matt

...yeah. Gonna' have to say that this idea seems pretty solid.

But also that Temple Guard are still a good unit. Slann are now better than other wizards, and proportionately expensive, instead of being stupidly efficient.
Temple Guard are an expensive bodyguard, and a Slann is going to be touching more models than the average wizard. Those are the only reasons that it might not always be the best idea. But it's never a horrible one.

DoC cannons can move and shoot. And you can fire at him if you can't see him. All you have to see in front of him and trace a line that doesn't clip the building. I mean, that's just DoC but I'm sure other armies can do similar.

And if he's just going to stand behind a building all by himself, he gives up the benefit of taking a building in the first place. He loses 360 degree view, hard cover, reduced models attacking, etc etc. He's just blown his entire magic allowance on a really expensive hill.

I still don't see any benefit over what they are naturally given. This also takes away most of your spell abilities he would have gotten. In the last edition they used to stuff Teclis in a fortress with a world banner and heroes and combat unit. But he was completely immune to spells, challenges, had LoS as normal, and a full unit. And he was Teclis, IFing everything.

Well, I'm willing to be converted, I just wanna see more than theory hammer.

I'm interested in seeing a few battle reports with this build to see how it works out.

 DukeRustfield wrote:
DoC cannons can move and shoot. And you can fire at him if you can't see him. All you have to see in front of him and trace a line that doesn't clip the building. I mean, that's just DoC but I'm sure other armies can do similar.

And if he's just going to stand behind a building all by himself, he gives up the benefit of taking a building in the first place. He loses 360 degree view, hard cover, reduced models attacking, etc etc. He's just blown his entire magic allowance on a really expensive hill.

I still don't see any benefit over what they are naturally given. This also takes away most of your spell abilities he would have gotten. In the last edition they used to stuff Teclis in a fortress with a world banner and heroes and combat unit. But he was completely immune to spells, challenges, had LoS as normal, and a full unit. And he was Teclis, IFing everything.

Slaan can cast spells without line of sight. He can draw range and line of sight from any skink priest within 24".
The only time you'd be behind the building is when you don't know who your fighting, and randomly get paired off against dwarfs or daemons. No other armies have magical shooting.

FYI, the Slaan in temple guard isn't immune to challenges. He can refuse and get sent to the back like any other character; then the TG are testing on Ld8 without the BSB. Likewise, deathstars can roll intot he TG and take them out.
TG are decent. They are totally worth 14 points. But with ~18 S5 attacks and 1 S3, and only T4 4+ armor, they aren't exactly hitting really hard, nor are they exceptionally survivable.
They are great against enemy core. They tend to fail against any specials and rares.
I don't like losing a 300 point block, along with a 325 point cast, and 200 points for the general and BSB in two rounds of combat.

In all honesty, the slaan with the stubborn crown and fencers blades makes saurus warriors just as survivable, for less points. The difference being is that slaan want to go into a challenge.

The idea of the tower of power is to have a way to keep 725 victory points out of my opponents hands. Not let him just fling mournfangs, man eaters, skull crushers, white lions etc into the fight and grind them down in two rounds.

-Matt

Slann in TG is immune. You have champs and you can add other heroes. That's what champs are for.

You're now adding another priest, out of BSB/IP range to make this work. Not sure what your costs up to, but it is nearly impossible to justify.

It's 725 points for a lvl 4 Wizard. That's your bottom line. And not even a super casty godlike lvl 4 Wiz. Just a regular one casting regular spells.

Yes, TG cannot 100% destroy everything they face. Shocker. But creating a situation where you are guaranteed a loss doesn't mitigate that. You've got redirectors, chaff, whatever.

ANY unit with magic templates, not just DoC, is instant loss. Amber spear, Pit of Shades, Purple Sun, et al. Even if he has a 1+ save, he is hit D6 times if he's in that building. I think that one little BRB blurb makes this strategy suicide for a lone unit you're trying to safeguard. Because half the time at least, you're going to have to sit outside that building alone.

 DukeRustfield wrote:
Slann in TG is immune. You have champs and you can add other heroes. That's what champs are for.

You're now adding another priest, out of BSB/IP range to make this work. Not sure what your costs up to, but it is nearly impossible to justify.

It's 725 points for a lvl 4 Wizard. That's your bottom line. And not even a super casty godlike lvl 4 Wiz. Just a regular one casting regular spells.

Yes, TG cannot 100% destroy everything they face. Shocker. But creating a situation where you are guaranteed a loss doesn't mitigate that. You've got redirectors, chaff, whatever.

ANY unit with magic templates, not just DoC, is instant loss. Amber spear, Pit of Shades, Purple Sun, et al. Even if he has a 1+ save, he is hit D6 times if he's in that building. I think that one little BRB blurb makes this strategy suicide for a lone unit you're trying to safeguard. Because half the time at least, you're going to have to sit outside that building alone.

525 for the Slaan, 65 for the priest. No matter where you put the slaan, you're going to want a priest anyway; and the priest works on his own, as well as providing LOS and Range for the slaan.

The champ buys you a round. Add in a hero, and now you're looking at another 100 to 120 points, on top of a 300 point block, and a ~350 points wizard/BSB for a very cheap slaan. Lose that block lose 1,000 points. Being able to dodge a challenge still does not equate to winning combat, or holding out for an extended period of time.
It's not that I expect temple guard to destroy everything. It's that they are a mid-grade unit. Most armies have units that both hit harder and survive better. Temple Guard are a hybrid, and as such, they lose to the specialists. I don't want to tie up 1,000 victory points in a generalist unit. (100 extra for general, 100 extra for BSB, 25 extra for the TG banner)
Not being able to flee a charge is a huge liability for Temple Guard with a Slaan.
I'd try a unit of ~40 and go death star, but pit, and purple sun make that a very bad idea.



-Matt

No one is getting to your TG mob on turn 1. They aren't getting there on turn 2. You can put whatever you want around them. You make it seem like once your slann is in a building you can block and chaff and redirect enemies perfectly, but when he's mobile outside in a unit surrounded by your army you instantly blunder into the best TG-killing enemies in the game. If your slann can't escape challenges in a unit with a champ, he certainly can't when he's alone.

Pit and purple sun insta-kill your slann. The same spells you're fearing are going to decimate you no matter what your situation. Template spells get D6'd to units in a building. Though the wording is fuzzy.

Again, I don't know what you're trying to fix that you aren't breaking more.

 DukeRustfield wrote:

Again, I don't know what you're trying to fix that you aren't breaking more.

Gor Horde with BSB (banner of the beast)
Cauldon and witch elves
Executioner hordes.
White Lion Hordes.
Ironguts in large numbers.
Maneaters.
Mournfangs.
Savage Orc Big uns.
Steam Tanks.
Skull Crushers
Chosen

These are all units that I've always come out losing to, and losing badly. Stubborn keeps me around for a turn, then I die in the second round of combat.
It's not turn 1, it's not turn 2. It's usually turn 4~ish.
Just about every army has a unit that's cheaper and more effective than Temple Guard.
All of the above are still problem units; but they aren't taking out my general and bsb in the process; you're not stuck in a very expensive, slow unit. Yes, you can redirect. Yes, your opponent can clear redirecters. If you do take the big TG block, the fate of the game is most likely dependent on if your opponent can bring his beat stick into combat with the temple guard. If he can, you lose (1,000 VP loss), if he can't you've got a good chance.

If 9th edition returns to letting us pick the weapon we fight with, I'll be on board with Temple Guard again. 3+ armor and parry is often vastly better than 4+ armor and halberd. It would let them actually Guard the Slaan like they are supposed to. Then they could hold up well enough that you could flank the offending unit and actually win.

Have you fought the Lizardmen much with the new book?
With the magic gimped, you don't get the Regenerating T8 resurrecting beat sticks of the last army book.
Oddly, the best lizardmen lists I see with the new book don't have a slaan at all.
I've got another solution for the TG problem, but I won't post it until after my game against skaven this weekend... too many gutter-runners listening right now.


-Matt

You've got one of the most powerful wizards in the game in that block capable of taking any lore +1, 100 magic items, magic BSB, 150 in whatchamacallits.

TG aren't fighting stuff 1v1. They got a big toad of destruction with them. If all your TG have 7 toughness pretty much every one of those enemies above eats dirt. Lore of Metal takes out a lot of them too. And may say, but they have a wizard too. Fine. Yours is better. In numerous ways.

High magic is a good lore, but it's all over the place. Maybe you're tired of taking Lore of Life, but it was the mainstay for a reason: it's really really good with Lizardmen.

You don't get +1PD like you used to and loremaster, but they don't get whatever OP crud was around either. If you're saying a slann can't get off one or two 8+ spells a round, I don't buy that. Even if it's true, having him sit in a building won't change it. If magic is borked, you shouldn't spend any points on casters at all.

 DukeRustfield wrote:
You've got one of the most powerful wizards in the game in that block capable of taking any lore +1, 100 magic items, magic BSB, 150 in whatchamacallits.

TG aren't fighting stuff 1v1. They got a big toad of destruction with them. If all your TG have 7 toughness pretty much every one of those enemies above eats dirt. Lore of Metal takes out a lot of them too. And may say, but they have a wizard too. Fine. Yours is better. In numerous ways.

High magic is a good lore, but it's all over the place. Maybe you're tired of taking Lore of Life, but it was the mainstay for a reason: it's really really good with Lizardmen.

You don't get +1PD like you used to and loremaster, but they don't get whatever OP crud was around either. If you're saying a slann can't get off one or two 8+ spells a round, I don't buy that. Even if it's true, having him sit in a building won't change it. If magic is borked, you shouldn't spend any points on casters at all.

Looks like you're not experienced with the New Lizardmen. Lizardmen get a middle of the road level 4, with lots of special abilities that have very little to do with the offensive side of the magic phase.

Currently with a Strong Offensive Magic Phase:
Dark Elves still get the Knife (power dice), and +1 to cast.
High Elves re-roll a casting die, +1 to cast high magic.
Vampires Get an area of effect +2 to cast, and can store 2 power/dispel dice, and re-roll 1 winds of magic die.
Tomb Kings get +D3 power dice and +D3 to casting Value.

With an Average Offensive Magic Phase:
Skaven get Condenser and warp tokens.
O&G Shrine of power dice, along with the little waaaagh stealing dispel dice and making power dice.
Beasts get the Rock of power dice making, and the kills=power dice arcane item.
Empire: +1 power die rare choice, along with some extra channels from warrior priests.

Lizardmen get to draw range of line of sight from priests within 24", but only for magic missiles and direct damage spells. For more effective casting, the only option they get is to spend 45 points and channel 3 times on a 5+. That lands Lizardmen solidly into the Average grouping for magical offense.

How often does an empire wizard get off 2 spells on a 8+? Because that's pretty much the offensive output of the Slaan.
And while I can get off 2 spells per phase, it's usually not the one I really want. Without loremaster and a good power die boost, Life is pretty bad. Just spell Selection alone can Gimp your main wizard harshly.
I've gotten a lot of utility out of Metal; due to have several spells with a similar effect; all of them help out against heavy army. Even if I only get 1 spell off a turn, I can reliably improve my standing against those 1+ and 2+ save enemies. That lets you build an army around Knowing what your wizard will do.
Likewise, lore of fire has been alright. I'm going to be scoring S4 flaming hits. I'm not going to need line of sight or range, thanks to the extra 24" of range I get from a skink priest. The Kindle Flame helps the 2nd, 3rd and 4th spell meet the casting value.

No, the Slaan isn't getting totally shut down. What is happening is that I'm only getting off ~1 spell a phase, and my opponent can pretty effectively pick which spell I do get off.
If you can stack your wizard with lots of similar spells, then the opponent shutting down 2 out of 3 spells isn't that bad.

-Matt

Saying slann is middle tier and then comparing them to...TK.

He's got a 4+ ward for free. He's got 5 wounds. He is a magic BSB holder. He can sit in the middle of units. Poof. He's now better than every other wizard in the game. Everyone has to spend 45pts to get what he automatically has just on a ward. I don't think any non-monster has the same level of wounds.

**I had a half-page debunking all these wizards but it's not needed.**

Not sure what you're looking for. Save one dispel PD to cast. Reroll first dispel. Loremaster (High). Modify miscast.

The biggest thing, you can channel 3 dice every cast/dispel phase. The rules for channel say EACH 6 you roll is +1PD. That means you can get +3PD to cast and dispel. So the first thing you buy is Channeling staff. +1 to ALL of his channeling attempts. So he has 3 rolls to get 5+ with each being +1PD.

Slann is really ridiculously good.

Give home the fencers blades, that way he loses a lot less in combat (the 1-2 turns he's in combat) and he might take out some chaff, keeping him stubborn.

If he runs he dies being the BSB right?

I have to agree with one thing Matt said. In our local area, I've not seen a lot of Slann in Lizardmen armies.

 DukeRustfield wrote:
Saying slann is middle tier and then comparing them to...TK.

He's got a 4+ ward for free. He's got 5 wounds. He is a magic BSB holder. He can sit in the middle of units. Poof. He's now better than every other wizard in the game. Everyone has to spend 45pts to get what he automatically has just on a ward. I don't think any non-monster has the same level of wounds.

**I had a half-page debunking all these wizards but it's not needed.**

Not sure what you're looking for. Save one dispel PD to cast. Reroll first dispel. Loremaster (High). Modify miscast.

The biggest thing, you can channel 3 dice every cast/dispel phase. The rules for channel say EACH 6 you roll is +1PD. That means you can get +3PD to cast and dispel. So the first thing you buy is Channeling staff. +1 to ALL of his channeling attempts. So he has 3 rolls to get 5+ with each being +1PD.

Slann is really ridiculously good.

I guess you missed some of the words.

Currently with a Strong Offensive Magic Phase:

The slaan is good on Magical Defense. His offense is lacking. I do take the channel 3 on a 5+. It averages 1 dispel die, and less than 1 power die. That is nowhere near as good as +D3 to cast on every spell, and +D3 power dice.
A 4+ ward, and 5 wounds doesn't make him a better caster. Neither does being a BSB, or sitting in the middle of a ItP Tempe Guard unit. That's all Awesome abilities, but doesn't improve his casting in the slightest.
If Lizard players could take T2 W2 no save skinks as wizard lords, and save 100+ points, people would do it in a heart beat.
Tetto'eko is getting a lot of love, even though he's T2 with a 5+ ward as his only defense.

No option for mobility hurts the slaan a bit too. I've had tetto survive because of his M6 lets him run out of a unit and get out of arc. Not so much with the 50mm base and M4.

Would the flying carpet ethereal slaan work? It doesn't make him any cheaper, but far more mobile. He could still take the channelling staff then and have 35 pts to play with.

 HawaiiMatt wrote:
The slaan is good on Magical Defense. His offense is lacking. I do take the channel 3 on a 5+. It averages 1 dispel die, and less than 1 power die. That is nowhere near as good as +D3 to cast on every spell, and +D3 power dice.

It averages 1 PD and 1 dispel dice. 3 1/3rd chances. It's exactly the same roll power and dispel. So let's see, he can save an extra dispel dice, which he on avg gets +1 more. Then gets +1PD on top of it. He can cast through the eyes of any of his priests, thus having way more range/LoS/arc/stuck-in-cc options. He can automatically get 6 spells from all lores, or loremaster high, or roll on 9 different lores. And if you can afford two fatties, they can swap spells with each other. If he takes High Magic, he can swap spells and spell lores. I mean...not sure what you want, but that's a crazy amount of stuff.

You're comparing him to a TK Priest who, with 300pts of units can get more bonuses, and then has a three Lores available, and one caster is forced to take Nek. Do you REALLY believe a TK High Priest is a more powerful Wizard than a Lizardman Slann? Do you really think that TK wouldn't trade their junky bone casters in a heartbeat? Is the crux of your argument, the defining proof, that TK High Priests are so awesometacular that Slann are just poo offensive casters by comparison? You need to go to the Lizardman forums and propose swapping Slann for a high priest and then go to the TK forums and propose nerfing High Priest, who is clearly too uber. I'm sure everyone will agree with those assessments.

The number of threads/posts/comments I've ever seen that Slann need a buff is approximately zero. I can't say the same about TK High Priests. In fact there's one in the proposed rules section now.

 DukeRustfield wrote:

 HawaiiMatt wrote:
The slaan is good on Magical Defense. His offense is lacking. I do take the channel 3 on a 5+. It averages 1 dispel die, and less than 1 power die. That is nowhere near as good as +D3 to cast on every spell, and +D3 power dice.

It averages 1 PD and 1 dispel dice. 3 1/3rd chances. It's exactly the same roll power and dispel. So let's see, he can save an extra dispel dice, which he on avg gets +1 more.

False.
The channeling isn't an independent event. It's linked to a hard limit of power dice.
In ~10+ games, the one time I got the triple channel was a turn where my skink priest also channeled, and I rolled a 10 for power dice. This gave me 14 dice which get limited to 12.
Since you don't always get the power dice, the power dice average can't be 1.

The problem with tomb kings isn't the magic phase, it's the rest of the army.
+D3 power dice and +D3 to cast every spell is pretty damn awesome. I would take that over any other casting bonus in the game right now.

And I'm not calling the slaan bad; I'm calling him average. If you do take a look at lizard lists that are doing well, you'll see that they usually don't have a slaan.
Spell selection is a problem for the Slaan. You get 4 spells, from 9 lores, but the back up casters are only getting beast/heavens. This means you can't do a council of light, you can't have a level 1 or level 2 block the bad spells so your high level caster gets the good ones.
If skink priests had a few more lores, the slaan would be a lot better. It just totally sucks when you general 4 spells, and only get 2 that are useful.

-Matt

 HawaiiMatt wrote:
The problem with tomb kings isn't the magic phase, it's the rest of the army.
+D3 power dice and +D3 to cast every spell is pretty damn awesome. I would take that over any other casting bonus in the game right now.

Even with the reduced lore selection, less ability to survive, and army existence keyed to the caster's death (may dump that on the army, but not sure that makes it irrelevant), etc.?

Pretty sure most would not.

TK are strongest with magic, but not strongest in Warhammer - strongest compared to the rest of our options.

 kirsanth wrote:

 HawaiiMatt wrote:
The problem with tomb kings isn't the magic phase, it's the rest of the army.
+D3 power dice and +D3 to cast every spell is pretty damn awesome. I would take that over any other casting bonus in the game right now.

Even with the reduced lore selection, less ability to survive, and army existence keyed to the caster's death (may dump that on the army, but not sure that makes it irrelevant), etc.?
Pretty sure most would not.
TK are strongest with magic, but not strongest in Warhammer - strongest compared to the rest of our options.

You'll be hard pressed to find battle reports of a Slaan dying and still winning the game. You just can't absorb the 600 point loss of the general, BSB, and only effective caster, and keep in the game.
That's really no different than tomb kings. Lose the wizard, lose the game.
It's actually pretty similar to Vampire Counts. Yes, another caster of necromancy can take over after the first crumble, but usually by then it's too late.
At least the Tomb Kings aren't rolling against LD3 to LD5 for the good stuff.

Now, as for the strongest magic phase, who's better than +D3 power dice and +D3 on every spell?

-Matt

You are correct on the hover v. flight but it does not change the fact you cannot divert plague drones easily, which is the point I was making.

The problem with the Folding tower is it makes your entire army static. I may not have the tools to get the frog out of the building, but I don't have to. You have spent a significant portion of your points in making this work and many more of your points are going to have to stay close to the tower to benefit from IP.

The biggest advantage of Lizardmen is the ability to control the movement phase through skinks. By hunkering down, in one spot, you will give up a great deal of this advantage. My goal would be to clean up the rest of the army.

I would be interested in seeing the rest of the list you would build around this Slann. Which lore would you contemplate.

 HawaiiMatt wrote:
[laan can cast spells without line of sight. He can draw range and line of sight from any skink priest within 24".
-Matt

This is only partially correct. He can only channel Direct Damage and Magic Missles, not Hexes, Augments, and Vortexes.

 HawaiiMatt wrote:

 kirsanth wrote:

 HawaiiMatt wrote:
The problem with tomb kings isn't the magic phase, it's the rest of the army.
+D3 power dice and +D3 to cast every spell is pretty damn awesome. I would take that over any other casting bonus in the game right now.

Even with the reduced lore selection, less ability to survive, and army existence keyed to the caster's death (may dump that on the army, but not sure that makes it irrelevant), etc.?
Pretty sure most would not.
TK are strongest with magic, but not strongest in Warhammer - strongest compared to the rest of our options.

You'll be hard pressed to find battle reports of a Slaan dying and still winning the game. You just can't absorb the 600 point loss of the general, BSB, and only effective caster, and keep in the game.
That's really no different than tomb kings. Lose the wizard, lose the game.
It's actually pretty similar to Vampire Counts. Yes, another caster of necromancy can take over after the first crumble, but usually by then it's too late.
At least the Tomb Kings aren't rolling against LD3 to LD5 for the good stuff.

Now, as for the strongest magic phase, who's better than +D3 power dice and +D3 on every spell?

-Matt

So LM who lose a model that is 1000% more survivable is a bad sign. That is not odd.

As for strongest magic phase, the bonuses you keep falling to come with the drawbacks I mentioned still.
Those bonuses apply to only 3 lores and are generally focused on buffs that are generally affecting a sub-par unit.

TK having a reliable magic phase? Sure.
TK having a powerful one. . .not so much.

Similar to why you mentioned Slann lacking a punch. They at least have the option to punch.


editing to add:
To be clear, I am mostly nitpicking.
I find it pretty fun that TK can be considered top notch of much anything in the game.

 HawaiiMatt wrote:
The channeling isn't an independent event. It's linked to a hard limit of power dice.

Now, as for the strongest magic phase, who's better than +D3 power dice and +D3 on every spell?

Lolz. Now you're saying OMG I've reached the max power dice allowable in the game. This ability sux! Likewise, TK's D3 PD (NOT dispel dice, btw) is hard-capped as well. And they have to pay 300pts to get this. And while casket of souls is nice. Heirotitan isn't as hot.

I'm saying +1-3PD +1-3DD for 30pts of non-magic item limit and ability to convert 1DD to 1PD for 20pts of non-magic item limit is easily worth more than TK. Especially since it's attached to a Slann with all the Slanny options and the +D3+D3 is attached to a TK with TK options.

Slann are not mediocre. They aren't average. They are awesome.

-+1-3PD a turn
-+1-3DD a turn
-convert one unused DD to 1PD a turn
-reroll first dispel attempt
-choice of Loremaster (high), 8 sig spells from 8 lores, rolling normally in any of the basic 8 lores

^they can have all of that at the cost of zero magic items. They give up nothing. That is gigantic. No one else has that. Khairos Fateweaver doesn't have it. Teclis doesn't have it. Or anywhere close.

As for saying an army that loses 600 pts is at a disadvantage. Well...no sheep. But Saurus still kick ass. Skinks still kick ass. Razordons/Flamyboyz still kick ass. Lizardmen are perfectly fine without a caster, as has been pointed out. You don't HAVE to take the best spellcaster in the game. Or spend 600 pts on him. He's merely a lvl 4 with a ward and 5 wounds for 300pts. That's cheaper than a Slaughtermaster with a 4+ ward (he trades fighting for access to more spells).

@hinge: I don't think Skinks are using the General's Ld much anyway. They cause significant disorder for such a small amount of points; it's no big deal if you lose them.

I'm pretty confident you could build a good Lizardman list designed to castle up. Salamanders/Razordons and maybe some Bastilodons backed by Saurus, and then Terradons, Rippers, and Chameleons in the back field.

@kirsanth: Matt was saying that the High Priest has better offensive potential than the Slann. Nothing else.
The Slann is, overall, a better character. He's insanely durable and has very few weaknesses.

@Duke: I think both you and Matt are bringing up fair points. One of you is doing so cordially.
I feel like this situation is largely dependent on local meta. I do feel like the Tower is an unusual way to approach Lizardmen, but I certainly won't call it a bad idea just yet.

Warpsolution wrote:
@kirsanth: Matt was saying that the High Priest has better offensive potential than the Slann. Nothing else.
The Slann is, overall, a better character. He's insanely durable and has very few weaknesses.

I understood that and still think it very odd.

TK have 3 lore options and must lock them prior to the game.
None of those options are all that, purely on offense - sans buffs, which is important because the units being buffed are worse in TK.

editing to add:
Being more durable makes a better caster - more wounds and toughness = less issue with (some) mishap in addition to the blatant shooting and CC issues.

I have no issue with folk saying the TK have a power magic phase, but even Arkhan is merely comparable to the powerhouse wizards in the game.
Which is odd considering he is higher level than all of them.

Harmonic Convergence with Staff of Channeling.
Odds of getting Zero 5's and 6's: 29.6%
Odds of getting One 5 or 6: 44.4%
Odds of getting Two 5 or 6: 22.2%
Odds of getting Three 5 or 6: 3.7%

If you apply a weighted mean, you average actually getting 0.94 bonus power dice. 0.06 dice are lost for channeling more dice than you can keep.

I hadn't done the breakdown before, but it's worse than I thought, and matches with what I've seen during game play. Once in ~10 games I've seen the triple channel. More often than not, I see zero or 1 power die.

I'm leaning more towards it's not worth 45 points; or more importantly, it's not worth your 1 arcane item. I'm thinking forbidden Rod is the way to go. It covers the not enough dice problem; along with taking advantage of having a 4+ ward and 5 wounds.

-Matt

Forbidden rod is only +1 and it's 70pts. +1PD is going to come out better most times on offense but it's always going to come out better on dispelling, where +1 die is weighted vastly more. And that +1 die can then be fed back into PD if you don't use it. So if you really feel like being offense, +1DD = +2PD on the 2nd turn and higher. At least on a 2+ roll. If you add in rerolling your first failed dispel, that gives you more leeway to have your DD dice go further and allow you to convert one to a PD.

Forbidden rod is only nice in that it doesn't contribute to miscasts.

Though frankly, there's not a ton of magic items for a fatty frog to buy. He's got the ward, he's not going to want to get into combat, and if he does, he's not going to do well. If he could get both, that would be golden.

Either way works. They cost about the same. I think the PD is more powerful, allows you more flexibility, like if you really want that DD or you want +2PD. The Forbidden rod is safer, but it can't reach the same values and gobbles up your magic allowance.