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Slaan.
Ethereal.
MR D3.
Self heal on a 6.
Folding fortress.

520 points.

Gives you an ethereal Wizard, who's stubborn 9, with a 4+ ward and MR equal to a D3. If he takes a wound, he gets it back on a 6 (roll for each wound each turn).
Being in a building, you don't have to worry about combat res, other than wounds inflicted. You're also -2 to be shot, should somebody have magical shooting.

I'm going to give this guy a try on Saturday. He isn't likely to do 520 points of damage, but he's also very unlikely to die.

-Matt

Goddamn Matt, you always come up with hilarious stuff like this.

I'd probably put some sort of a unit in there with him, one with a unit champion. It would suck to get charged by a unit with a magic weapon wielding character and pretty much auto die.

Saldiven wrote:
I'd probably put some sort of a unit in there with him, one with a unit champion. It would suck to get charged by a unit with a magic weapon wielding character and pretty much auto die.

Can't join a unit if ethereal slaan.
You don't auto die from a hero either. He still has to hit and wound, and you still get your 4+ ward.
And, if it looks bad, you can always step out of the back of the building.
Since you can't be locked in combat, you're opponent has to score 3 wounds in one round to down the slaan.


If you go lore of high magic, you could get unforging and just start targeting lords who line up on the building, and try and destroy their weapons.

-Matt

@Matt:

Whoops, forgot about the unit joining thing.

High Magic/Unforging is legitimate, but only if you were planning on taking that lore anyway.

As for the auto death thing, I might be laboring under a misaprehension; if Ethereal, I thought they got the Unstable rule. Is that incorrect?

Saldiven wrote:
@Matt:

Whoops, forgot about the unit joining thing.

High Magic/Unforging is legitimate, but only if you were planning on taking that lore anyway.

As for the auto death thing, I might be laboring under a misaprehension; if Ethereal, I thought they got the Unstable rule. Is that incorrect?

That is correct, he does get unstable. Which is why he camps out in the building. You don't get combat res for ranks or standards. Only wounds, and in a tie, +1 for musician.
You also don't stay locked in combat, you get booted out at the end of combat.
A normal ethereal slaan has to worry about fast cav with a banner and musician. On the charge, they cripple him, in a round of two, they finish him with static combat res.

-Matt

It's funny I was just looking at this last night where I was like what a useless ability. Ethereal + Unstable on a guy with 1 attack. On a charge, even gobbos will kill him in one round. 3 ranks + banner + musician + charge = dead + 1 overkill.

I guess it can work, but you're kind of stuck in your deployment zone and you're going to get away from your army.

But in real cost benefit terms, the only reason to take higher state is to free up points you would have used in TG. You're blowing 160pts just to make it possible and then you have to blow unforging on anyone who gets near--you can't wait until they are on you because it targets random items and if they got 3, you may not get the weapon. If the enemy has like a Lord with magic and a hero, you're kinda screwed. Also, spells will still kill him and they only have to draw LOS to the building.

So if he was like an epidemius type model who merely needed to exist, it's a good cover (not as good as portalglyph) but the slaan needs to be BRB/IP and in spell range.

Range isn't that bad.
With skink priests, you can easily hit the whole table.

With bastiladons and razordons (and a salamander or two), you can advance a little, and get into a shoot out. Shouldn't be too hard to keep your bulk near the tower (360 arc/line of sight too).
And, as pointed out, you don't have to stay in the building. You can get out and hide behind it if you want to.
Lizard support units (cowboys, chameleons and rippers) aren't usually in range of the Slaan anyway.

Anyhow, I'm giving it a try on Saturday, I'll let you know how it shakes out. Of course, with the format on Saturday, it might be my opponent who is trying it out against me.

-Matt

 HawaiiMatt wrote:

Saldiven wrote:
@Matt:

Whoops, forgot about the unit joining thing.

High Magic/Unforging is legitimate, but only if you were planning on taking that lore anyway.

As for the auto death thing, I might be laboring under a misaprehension; if Ethereal, I thought they got the Unstable rule. Is that incorrect?

That is correct, he does get unstable. Which is why he camps out in the building. You don't get combat res for ranks or standards. Only wounds, and in a tie, +1 for musician.

Right, but doesn't that mean a combat character would only have to do 2 wounds to kill the Slaan, given the unlikelihood that the Slaan will do any wounds in return or roll the 6 to regain a wound or wounds? Sure, its possible the Slaan will do a wound and regain a wound, but it's just as likely that an assaulty character would do 4+ wounds to the Slaan.

BTW, not saying it's a bad idea, just pointing out things to consider. The problem with being charged by such an assaulty character can be mitigated by placement of the tower. You can use intervening units and such to prevent the tower from being charged until such time as it doesn't really matter much anymore, if that's what you want.

I just don't see that it buys you a lot. Again, is this more or less viable than bunkering in TG? I think it's less.

 DukeRustfield wrote:
I just don't see that it buys you a lot. Again, is this more or less viable than bunkering in TG? I think it's less.

A big enough unit of temple guard to survive dedicated aggression is a lot more than 160 points.
160 gets you 10 temple guard, a standard and musician.
My units of 20 were getting wiped out, and I don't want to go to 30; it's just too many points.

-Matt

No my point is TG actually do something. They are quite capable fighters. Your 160pts does nothing except force you to be in a less viable position tactically. But yes, the TG cost more. Let's say it's 300 more on top of the 160, that extra 300 pts you're NOT spending on TG has to net you more than the TG would and compensate for the less viable position of the Slann and less viable abilities and magic items he would have taken and worse off choices.

Likewise, you're open to magic missiles and DD's now completely. When he's in a unit he's completely immune to those, but now because only he can enter the building, he is the only target. He has to dispel every DD or MM or he'll die almost immediately. Also, not sure if he gets a LoS of even the lousy type.

I think a DP would like to see this on the table. Flying makes it easy to get around blocking units. I'm onboard with a killy character being difficult to avoid in the tower. Plus, as the units get spread out it's going to look like trouble for LD bubble.

It's an interesting idea though. A bit sneaky and may get some odd looks, but still pretty cool.

 DukeRustfield wrote:
No my point is TG actually do something. They are quite capable fighters. Your 160pts does nothing except force you to be in a less viable position tactically. But yes, the TG cost more. Let's say it's 300 more on top of the 160, that extra 300 pts you're NOT spending on TG has to net you more than the TG would and compensate for the less viable position of the Slann and less viable abilities and magic items he would have taken and worse off choices.

Likewise, you're open to magic missiles and DD's now completely. When he's in a unit he's completely immune to those, but now because only he can enter the building, he is the only target. He has to dispel every DD or MM or he'll die almost immediately. Also, not sure if he gets a LoS of even the lousy type.

4+ ward with d3 MR. I want him to get targeted by magic missile and direct damage, he's more durable than anything else in the army.
He's infantry. If he's within 3" of other infantry, he gets a look out.

-Matt

I think it might have potential, as long as the rest of the list building were designed with the specific Slaan build in mind, and deployment were used specifically to support the character. I think it might lead to a more defensive play style in order to keep as much of the army within buff and Ld range of the Slaan, but that's not necessarily a bad thing.

I'm curious to see how it goes. Give it a shot in a couple of games and write up a report or two

 HawaiiMatt wrote:

4+ ward with d3 MR. I want him to get targeted by magic missile and direct damage, he's more durable than anything else in the army.
He's infantry. If he's within 3" of other infantry, he gets a look out.

Oh, didn't read that. But now you're spending about 220pts to make it happen AND you have to leave an infantry unit within 3" of the tower. Which at a minimum costs you 50 more and not only limits your Slann, but limits them as they have to sit around. So you have a unit being mini-TG just so you can not buy TG. You're up to spending about 19 TG worth of pts just to make this possible.

If someone doesn't know how buildings work or they really want to kill a Slann in a building, this works, but you're giving up an awful lot of points on defense IMHO.

 DukeRustfield wrote:

 HawaiiMatt wrote:

4+ ward with d3 MR. I want him to get targeted by magic missile and direct damage, he's more durable than anything else in the army.
He's infantry. If he's within 3" of other infantry, he gets a look out.

Oh, didn't read that. But now you're spending about 220pts to make it happen AND you have to leave an infantry unit within 3" of the tower. Which at a minimum costs you 50 more and not only limits your Slann, but limits them as they have to sit around. So you have a unit being mini-TG just so you can not buy TG. You're up to spending about 19 TG worth of pts just to make this possible.

If someone doesn't know how buildings work or they really want to kill a Slann in a building, this works, but you're giving up an awful lot of points on defense IMHO.

The threat that needs a look out you know about. They will already have pit of shades or purple sun, you know about it as soon as they generate spells.
It's not a unit you're using for Look Outs all the time, you're only shifting a unit to that task situationally, when you need it.
If you want to talk pit of shades or purple sun, just take a look at what those spells do to blocks of temple guard...
It doesn't matter if they target the slaan or not; pit of shades and purple sun are spells lizardmen cannot afford to let go off.

-Matt

No, LoS is for anything. Because he's alone. Normally you couldn't shoot him with ranged weapons. I mean just normal bows and arrows. But he's solo. Not much is going to be magic, but some will. Though he has hard cover. And stuff like cannons, Daemon or CD or Dwarfs can shootify you. Normally they wouldn't bother because of LoS, but now it's worth a shot because it's basically a game over attack.

Again, just me, don't see the cost is worth the benefit. It certainly doesn't come off as one of those strategies that strikes me as a no-brainer.

I mean compare to Epidemius in Portalglyph. This guy is your general and BSB. Epidem is just some guy. Epidi costs maybe half or a third as much and all his benefits come into play no matter what, just by him existing. The slann still has to cast or he is of little value. And he still needs to give IP/BSB reroll and that is of limited range. For the most part, Liz are far better CC than they are shooting. Their range is limited and/or Rare and the LD on their shooters is not great.

HawaiiMatt. Breaking the game with Lizards since the time of the Old Ones.

 DukeRustfield wrote:

For the most part, Liz are far better CC than they are shooting. Their range is limited and/or Rare and the LD on their shooters is not great.

The more I'm playing lizards, the less of this I'm finding as true. It's repeatedly the magic and shooting that shines, and combat only mops up significantly weakened units. A 300 point block of saurus is doing an abysmal 4 wounds on swordsmen (5+ armor and parry, WS3 or better).
Skink shooters get the same performance for less points.

Lizardmen seem to be an army of shooting, magic, and hero delivery. Infantry and massed combat is a distraction.

Skink shooters might get that performance for 1 turn. But Saurus are vastly more durable and augmentable. Eventually something is going to catch them, and they'll grind them to little skinky pieces.

I had a game last week with a big block of Saurus mashed a Keeper of Secrets and a unit of Fiends of Slaanesh, admittedly the KoS rolled appallingly but predatory fighter game me 7 or 8 extra hits of two rounds of combat! Shooting has it's place but I find skinks generally don't last much more than two turns.

Maybe it is just my Meta, but I have found Skinks to be almost a waste of points. Thier status are way below the price you pay for them, What are are paying for is a Poison attacks. and sadly at S3, they tend to bounce more than they pay off, If they where half the price then they would be more usefull. I have also found that large units of Sauras are counter productive, maybe when PF gets FAQ and the entire unit gets to add extra attacks, but until then MMU seams to be the way to go.

I can totally understand the draw of getting the Slann out of the TG unit, Just about every game I have played, My Slann Miss casts on the turn the TG has charged or has been charged, and wipes out about hlaf the unit. So not having him inside that unit would make them allot more damaging.

The tower of power didn't make it into the lizard vs lizard civil war, but did go up against O&G.

With Chameleons and Rippers tearing up the backfield, O&G were forced to move towards me to earn victory points.
The tower went uncontested (other than a doom diver hit which did nothing). My opponent realized he had no hope of knocking the slaan out of the tower and left him alone.

As for S3 poison not doing much (due to armor), I've found the same problem with S4 attacks. It's decent, but can't really deal with armor effectively.
For cracking armor, you need cowboys, krox or lore of metal.
Blocks of Init 1 infantry is just asking for shadow or purple sun problems.

The skinks, and skinks + single krox are growing on me. The krox isn't as much for hitting power as it is for fear and leadership out on the flanks.

cawizkid wrote:
I can totally understand the draw of getting the Slann out of the TG unit, Just about every game I have played, My Slann Miss casts on the turn the TG has charged or has been charged, and wipes out about hlaf the unit. So not having him inside that unit would make them allot more damaging.

The very same day the new book came out, I had the chance to watch someone playing his Lizardmen against a guy playing Empire. The LM player was running the previously ubiquitous Slann in a block of TG. On turn two, he miscast with the Slann. The look on his face was priceless when he realized he couldn't Cupped Hands off the miscast anymore. The Slann blew up and killed all but 5-6 of the TG.

Slann in a unit of TG have been relatively scarce around here since the new book came out.

Saurus rip up armor. 2 attacks at -1 (with potentially 3 up front) and not very expensive. Most units simply aren't prancing around with 1+ armor saves. Those that are are elite and you shouldn't be throwing core against them. But Saurus can take on armored core fairly well.

Your choice is slann solo, which is death. Or slann in TG, which is better than any other wizard who runs in units and is in pretty much every army in the game. I can't imagine why people would fear it when it has so many benefits and no worse detriments. I suppose you could put him with Skinks sitting on the side, but that doesn't buy you anything except a suckier LoS than you get from TG and less protection. I mean, every wizard has the potential to blow up. You don't give up one of the army's best and unique benefits because you saw someone blow up once.

To be honest, wouldnt you get more use from skink clouds to block him?

Most armies now take chaff units or crew hunters.
For things like ogres, you can block off sabertusks with pretty much anything.

But against small flying units / models, you will need 360 degree bubble wrap.

Won't stop spells, cannons, ranged attacks. And he gives up a 100% LoS and trades it for a 50% LoS at the best.

And chaff dies. That's what chaff is supposed to do. Sit there and bleed. TG is supposed to live. I say it makes much better protection. And yeah, with a bubble wrap, you're again trying to create a pseudo TG JUST because you're worried about a miscast? And with Soul of Stone you reduce that chance by about half.

Ethereal slann works even without the tower, but the tower certainly helps. -3 (hard cover, skirmisher) to hit againgst him means that the small amount of ranged shooting going his way isnt a threat. And getting charged isnt an issue either as you can always surround the tower with blocks. And we have a rule here that cannons only hit guys inside buildings on a 4+ (cause hes surrounded by stone walls) so thats a waste of a shot.

I really want to like temple guard, but they havent done much for me in games except provide a target for stonethrowers and SWD's (spells of mass destruction). They are a nessecary evil for non ethereal slann's though.

Ethereal slann doesn't work without the tower. He dies to combat resolution because he's unstable. He can conceivably die in 1 round with no saves even though no damage was done in combat at all.

Your slann is still a target of mass death, as he's still your general/BSB/Wizard. As for stonethrowers, your Slann now gives up his 100% immunity to such weapons and has a 50% LoS, assuming infantry is close enough to help, and then they still might get hit. Though he does get to use his ward save.

There is no reason to have an ethereal slann by himself. You're required to bunker him almost exactly like TG because a unit of goblins can wipe him in one turn for like 1/10th the points. If you're going to surround your Slann, all you're doing is protecting your TG from literally a few spells in the game, while not protecting your Slann, and further exposing him to missile attacks, war machines, and spells which could have otherwise never possibly hit him.

Yeah, it makes sense that someone inside should be immune to cannons since cannons were literally designed to destroy castle walls and brought about the end of those lengthy siege warfare (well, like taking months). And if you see a giant frog man floating in the 2nd window casting spells and telling his troops where to go and waving a giant banner, clearly he might be on the 4th story. House rules is house rules, but buildings are pretty decent, what with limiting how many people can attack.