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 DukeRustfield wrote:
Forbidden rod is only +1 and it's 70pts.

It's 35 points, and it's a D6 power dice.
Downside is taking D3 wounds (which you get wards against) and it's 1 use only.
Since you use it after you've rolled for winds of magic, you can turn a poor phase like (2,2) into a very lop-sided phase.

-Matt

 HawaiiMatt wrote:
The only time you'd be behind the building is when you don't know who your fighting, and randomly get paired off against dwarfs or daemons. No other armies have magical shooting.

Just pointing out, but so do Skaven. WLC, Doomwheel, Doomrocket, PCC (lol) and weapon teams (like people take them...) are all magic shooting.

Oh, I was thinking Book of Ashur. Forbidden Rod is 1 use and is junk. Those strategies aren't remotely comparable. You're comparing a potion of Strength to a +3S sword.

Give a Priest Forbidden rod since it's useable by anyone and they don't nearly benefit the same from channeling staff.

I've tried running a cabal of Night Gobbo Shamans with the Channeling Staff, Power Stone, Forbidden Rod, and Power Scroll.
The Forbidden Rod is, by far, the most disappointing of those items.

It'd be better on a Slann, where those wounds can be Ward'd and maybe healed later, but still; 33% of the time, I take D3 wounds for a Power Stone or less, and spend 10pts more on it.
Paying 10pts more than the Rod for three 33% chances at an extra Power/Dispel Die just seems like a way better deal.

 DukeRustfield wrote:
Oh, I was thinking Book of Ashur. Forbidden Rod is 1 use and is junk. Those strategies aren't remotely comparable. You're comparing a potion of Strength to a +3S sword.

Give a Priest Forbidden rod since it's useable by anyone and they don't nearly benefit the same from channeling staff.

I've had some luck with the forbidden rod, death magic, and a spotter skink.
The skink priest gives range to the death snipes and the bonus power dice lets the slaan get off enough spells to pretty much ensure he kills the enemy wizard lord. After that phase, he doesn't have bonus power dice, but your opponent does have his level 4 to dispel with.
Unlike most other wizards, the D3 wounds doesn't really phase the slaan.

If you use to rod on the priest (which I have also done) it's giving your opponent at least a 100 points when the rod kills the priest.
Priests really are too useful for the extra line of sight and range to just throw away.


As for people still thinking the 3 channels are good; take a look at the breakdown of channeling. I'm not spending 45 points any more on a 3% hope of 3 dice.

No, you're spending it on a nearly guaranteed +1PD then +1DD which can be converted into another PD. Again, you're looking at the "worst" case scenario, trying to get 3 dice. You are likely to get one die, less likely 2, unlikely 3. But even if you don't get 3 you get 2. That is insanely good.

I don't know why you're trying to make it seem bad, it's the best there is other than maybe TK. And the fact there might be one caster who can get more power you seem to be saying is proof that Slann are mediocre.

Forbidden rod doesn't say and it's not FAQ'd, but you either use it before or after your roll winds. If it's before, you have a chance of completely wasting it and taking 3 wounds. That's your worst case and that is all it will ever do since it's single use. But I'm not going to say that's all the rod does, because clearly you don't evaluate on worst case.

And up above you made large cases for using all these other lores. +PD and +DD is always good on any lore. It is vastly better than the rod. You know this, I'm not really sure why you're trying to claim otherwise. They aren't even remotely near one another. It is DEBATABLE whether TK can get better buffs with +D3 to PD alone and +D3 to cast using 300pts of Rares. But if it is or isn't, forbidden rod strategy isn't anywhere in the running.

 DukeRustfield wrote:
No, you're spending it on a nearly guaranteed +1PD then +1DD which can be converted into another PD. Again, you're looking at the "worst" case scenario, trying to get 3 dice. You are likely to get one die, less likely 2, unlikely 3. But even if you don't get 3 you get 2. That is insanely good.

I don't know why you're trying to make it seem bad, it's the best there is other than maybe TK. And the fact there might be one caster who can get more power you seem to be saying is proof that Slann are mediocre.

Forbidden rod doesn't say and it's not FAQ'd, but you either use it before or after your roll winds. If it's before, you have a chance of completely wasting it and taking 3 wounds. That's your worst case and that is all it will ever do since it's single use. But I'm not going to say that's all the rod does, because clearly you don't evaluate on worst case.

And up above you made large cases for using all these other lores. +PD and +DD is always good on any lore. It is vastly better than the rod. You know this, I'm not really sure why you're trying to claim otherwise. They aren't even remotely near one another. It is DEBATABLE whether TK can get better buffs with +D3 to PD alone and +D3 to cast using 300pts of Rares. But if it is or isn't, forbidden rod strategy isn't anywhere in the running.

Odds of getting Zero 5's and 6's: 29.6%
Odds of getting One 5 or 6: 44.4%
Odds of getting Two 5 or 6: 22.2%
Odds of getting Three 5 or 6: 3.7%

~30% for no dice comes up all too often; especially on a now 370 wizard. Saving a dispel die is nice and all, but more often than not, you need to be rolling that dispel die.
Chance of dominating a magic phase are pretty low; the Rod does a better job at that.
As for the rod, you roll at the start of the magic phase; which is also when you roll winds of magic. With 2 things occurring at the same time, the player who's turn it is determines which goes off first. Being my magic phase, you can bet I'm going to winds first, Rod second.
I know that D3 power dice and D3 to cast is great; my vampires do very well with storing 2 dice and a +2 to cast. Unlike very other army, a vampire army can go pretty undefended in the magic phase, due to the ease of recovering losses.
The rod works well in 2 formats; death, when you gun down the opposing wizard to keep a magic advantage for the rest of the game; or lore master high magic, where you pop off several smaller spells and cycle out going for what you really need. Power Scroll tends to work better for the high magic approach.

Now, if I could get an elven way stone every game, and park my slaan on that, channeling 6 dice on a 5+, I'd be all over it.

-Matt

The rod doesn't dominate the magic phase because the magic phase exists for 6 turns, not once. Dwarfs do not shut down the magic phase because they get to add +D6 to one single dispel phase.

Odds of getting Zero 5's and 6's: 29.63%
Odds of getting One 5 or 6: 44.4%
Odds of getting Two 5 or 6: 22.2%
Odds of getting Three 5 or 6: 3.7%
Odds of getting at least One die = 70.37%
Odds of getting at least Two dice = 25.93%
Avg +PD/DD a phase 0.9998 (and no, it doesn't evaluate the cap, but neither does your forbidden rod, which is far more likely to waste dice).

You can give the rod to a lackey. It is of nearly no value on your general/best wizard. Anyone can activate it. Why you are pretending that +6PD and +6DD across a game is inferior to a one-time +3.5PD that causes D3 wounds, I have no idea. But it's not remotely better. It's not in the same category. You don't dominate the magic phase just because of one turn. +1 die every single phase let's you dominate. If you want to JUST be an offensive combat monster and covert every single DD, then you get another +4.1665PD across 5 turns (have to start on turn 2). That's +10.1653 PD across 6 turns. That's how you dominate the magic phase, +1.8331 PD a phase.

You tried to say that you need to use the DD on dispel turn, but so what, no one else can do that. It is not a detriment having the choice to have another PD on top of your bonus PD already or another DD. That's called an option.

You're really working hard to try and convince people that the rod is of any value. Sure, it's of some value. Not much. You're comparing adding 300pts of TK rares yet you can't buy a 60p hero as a caddy because it's too valuable... Or 370 pts of vampire rares, items, powers. Yet that 50pts of Lizardman abilities are just tooooo expensive. You're making no sense.

10 dice for 65pts is greater than 3.5 dice for 35pts. It just is, I'm sorry. Especially when you can add back in that 3.5 dice with any cheapo hero.

Well, I see his point, though. An extra 1 or 2 dice a turn is great. Well-rounded, safe, solid. But +D6 dice in one phase has the potential for a really lopsided phase. If you use that, as he said, to Death-snipe their lvl4, now you've basically gained +1 Power or Dispel die per spell cast.

The D3 wounds thing is laughable on a Slann, and it usually kills a Skink. That part makes more sense to me than any of the rest of it.

I still think the Rod is too random, though. Rolling a 1 or a 2 just made me feel silly for not buying a Power Stone. But I get how it's got potential.
I'm seeing more and more that most competitive lists aren't well-rounded or safe. They don't have ten eggs that each have a 20% chance of working. They've got 2 eggs with a 90% chance of working. Stack the odds as hard as you can in a few things, and then either reap the benefits or give up the game. I guess that's kind of what the Rod offers, in a weird, non-conventional sort of way.

Anyone can use the rod. They are only mutually-exclusive on the same model. But you give up ~FIVE PD if you hand it to your slann, almost 10 if you don't take the mega channel at all as well as channeling staff. On avg you get 1.8PD a turn if you convert everything. That is not a 20% chance of working. Calculating out to 2 decimal places it is literally impossible for the rod to be more successful at generating PD than just the normal bonus PD from slann. If you add in converts, it's even more lopsided. Again, it's about 10PD vs. 3.5PD with the ability to use that 3.5PD anyway. It is a no-brainer. It's not even up for debate.

On average, a Slann can get +13.5PD in any lore for 145 pts. Or +10PD for 50. It's by far their best strategy and insanely powerful.

It's laughable to keep trying to say Slann are mediocre or really anything other than the godlike wizards they are. And you're saying you absolutely can't spare a priest even though your Slann is your BSB (thus freeing up more hero points) and if you have a slann at all you're in a big enough game to have probably 5 priests if you so chose. But one of them can't carry the rod because they're "too valuable." Even though by giving it to the slann you are giving up half a PD and half a DD every single phase. If you were given the option of +.5PD/DD for 60pts of hero total (and you are given that option), that's a really good deal.

 DukeRustfield wrote:
The rod doesn't dominate the magic phase because the magic phase exists for 6 turns, not once. Dwarfs do not shut down the magic phase because they get to add +D6 to one single dispel phase.

Odds of getting Zero 5's and 6's: 29.63%
Odds of getting One 5 or 6: 44.4%
Odds of getting Two 5 or 6: 22.2%
Odds of getting Three 5 or 6: 3.7%
Odds of getting at least One die = 70.37%
Odds of getting at least Two dice = 25.93%
Avg +PD/DD a phase 0.9998 (and no, it doesn't evaluate the cap, but neither does your forbidden rod, which is far more likely to waste dice).

You can give the rod to a lackey. It is of nearly no value on your general/best wizard. Anyone can activate it. Why you are pretending that +6PD and +6DD across a game is inferior to a one-time +3.5PD that causes D3 wounds, I have no idea.

It's pretty simple. You might get 6 power and dispel over 6 turns. If you roll well enough, and if you live for 6 turns.
OR, you can take the D6 dice, all on a single turn. Let's say turn 1 or turn 2.
The advantage of the Forbidden Rod is an early Knock Out.
A sacrificial dagger can wrack up 15+ power dice a game; but not if you die turn 1 or 2.

I get what you're saying. Blow 100 points on a skink priest to generate the dice, giving that 100 VP to your opponent. Spend another 65 for the slaan to channel and store a die. Spend another 65 for a second skink to spot, since the first with the rod is dead. Since you're giving up dispel dice, spend another 25 to re-roll a dispel. Now we are at 555 points. Let's make him the BSB too; since it's cheaper than taking another hero (590 points).
Hey, why not throw in Tetto'Eko to re-roll all casting dice of 1 too. Look, were at 775 points. Of course, Slaan, Tetto and the spotter need bunkers...
You can keep piling it on to try and make it good; but when it comes down to it, its just expensive, and it's still very random. You still have to deal with crappy spell selection (only 4 spells, with no support casters in any lores of value), and a low magic phase still hoses you.

Or, you can go economy. 335 for the slaan (360 if he's the BSB) and a 100 point spotter (flying skink priest). Take your one good phase, and hit the opponent as hard as you can. It's 130 points cheaper, and it's not giving the your opponent 100 VP in the process. 130 points is a hero with T5 and a 1+ re-rollable armor save. It's also a cheap enough lord that you can run the Old Blood that can down the nurgle prince.

 HawaiiMatt wrote:
It's pretty simple. You might get 6 power and dispel over 6 turns. If you roll well enough, and if you live for 6 turns.
OR, you can take the D6 dice, all on a single turn. Let's say turn 1 or turn 2.
The advantage of the Forbidden Rod is an early Knock Out.

I can see the logic of this part, here. But it's still more of a gamble than option #1. Higher risk, higher reward, I guess. It just seems like the times the risk is greater than the reward are more common than the opposite. But if you can make it work, that's all that matters.

@DukeRustfield: I pulled 20% out of the air. I was not trying to make any kind of mathematical point.

It's not rolling well enough. It's average. It's going to happen. It's average you will get 12 total dice PD/DD. It's average rod will give you 3.5 dice. The slann could get +36 dice over the course of the game. Though if that happened I would immediately quit and go buy a lottery ticket.

People buy dispel scroll caddies. This is not new. If you think it's so awesome it is a no-brainer to have it. You've been saying all thread it's not a big deal to have 300pts of rares and 370pts of vampire stuff (this is all on top of the caster and his abilities, which are still suckier than a slann's). Yes, to dominate the magic phase you have to pay for it. I forgot about tetto, I'm not sure but at some point you're probably going to run out of spells to cast with all these bonuses.

A skink can sit at the far corner of the table. Oh no, you're giving up 100 in exchange for the enemy being crushed under the magic phase. That's a fair deal. Or put him in your Slann's unit. Doesn't matter if he's off to the side. Yeah, he'll die, but the enemy still has to come face your TG and a zillion PD-wielding frog of powa.

The point is, Lizardmen can do this. No, it's not free. It's not free for TK to do it or anyone else. It was free for Teclis last edition. Even the +infinite PD beastmen still have to buy a stone and however many shaman they want.