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Chaos Legions have theirs, although those that are, are all horribly mutated and rulers of daemon worlds and not really interested in leading armies anymore.

Still, I feel that Sanguinius, Guilliman, Dorn, Manus and Khan can remain dead and the Lion can remain asleep, but the rest (Corax, Vulkan and Russ) would have very much had the chance to be alive, but GW went "feth it, let's just make these guys disappear so that no loyalist legions/chapters can have Primarchs leading them anymore". It kinda annoys me a lot, so what do you think?

I'd always wondered why no traitor Primarch dies other than Horus. Generally it's pretty ridiculous that more of the Primarchs aren't killed off during the Heresy.

If the others get a free pass, why does Ferrus Manus have to die so early on?

Because then humanity has a figurehead to rally around to carry them to VICTOREHH!

And that means progress, and furthering the story line.

The only figurehead the imperium has is the Emprah, but their commands come from shadowy beurocrats that may or may not be serving themselves.

The primarchs themselves have largely passed into legend, even the chaos ones have fallen into the trope of "Orcus on His Throne"

The 41st millenium is meant to be stagnant, confused, and chaotic, leadership is meant to be scarce

The only Primachs that are confirmed dead are the Farhaus, Sanginius, and Dorn. The others have vanished or in the case of Gilliam he seems to be regenerating his wounds and may awake. I have heard rumors that when the golden throne fails it will mark the return of the Emporer and the Primachs both good and bad. But who knows what GW has planned.

P.S Sorry for the awful spelling

 Medium of Death wrote:
I'd always wondered why no traitor Primarch dies other than Horus.

Night Haunter and Alpharius are dead.

No loyalist primarchs lived because the Imperium wouldn't be allowed to be in such a crap sack state with them. The hope that one could come back (Guilliman, El'Jonson, Russ, Vulkan, Corax, Khan) is better for the story than one actually being there.

I thought Dorn was retconned and that he disappeared all they found was his hand?

Curze dies after the Heresy though. Does Alpharius really die?

 DarknessEternal wrote:

 Medium of Death wrote:
I'd always wondered why no traitor Primarch dies other than Horus.

Night Haunter and Alpharius are dead.

No loyalist primarchs lived because the Imperium wouldn't be allowed to be in such a crap sack state with them. The hope that one could come back (Guilliman, El'Jonson, Russ, Vulkan, Corax, Khan) is better for the story than one actually being there.

Alpharius is presumed dead. Of course anything about the Alpha Legion needs to be taken with a grain of salt. Including what I just said. And that, as well as this.

 Sir Arun wrote:
Chaos Legions have theirs, although those that are, are all horribly mutated and rulers of daemon worlds and not really interested in leading armies anymore.

Still, I feel that Sanguinius, Guilliman, Dorn, Manus and Khan can remain dead and the Lion can remain asleep, but the rest (Corax, Vulkan and Russ) would have very much had the chance to be alive, but GW went "feth it, let's just make these guys disappear so that no loyalist legions/chapters can have Primarchs leading them anymore". It kinda annoys me a lot, so what do you think?

If the Primarchs were still alive they would be vehemently opposed to the Imperium. There wouldn't be the slow decent into oblivion that the Imperium is currently facing.

If the primarchs came back, the IoM would kill them.

Once the legions were broken up and the high lords were in full control there was no more reason for the loyalist primarchs to exist and a whole lot of reasons for them to go away. The roles they were to ultimately fulfill died the day Horus turned.

If any came back today it would cause a civil war which is the last thing humanity needs

No Loyalist Primarch is alive in a narrative sense because it leaves the hope that one could come back. Odds are GW will bring them all back at the same time (well, close to the same time) if they ever do advance the story to that point (hey, it could happen. We've actually gotten a teeny bit of advancement with the Lion returning at least, now)

As it is, the number of CONFIRMED dead primarchs actually is equal for both the loyalists and the traitors IIRC. Two loyalists (Sanguinus and Ferrus Manus) and two traitors (Horus and Kurze). The remaining loyalist ones are unconfirmed and written in such a way to purposefully give hope of them returning, probably just in time to counter the traitor ones' return from the Great Game (which is happening. The traitor daemon primarchs have been "rumoured" to have been spotted during the 13th Black Crusade, as has Russ. Again, the plot is sloooooowly advancing towards the loyalist primarchs returning just in time to fight the traitor ones)

Because its a convenient excuse for living gods to not be usable on the tabletop? Because it was a convenient narrative direction to establish a sense of a once mighty and proud civilization that has entered into a new dark age without the heroes that once saved it and gave it hope?

And no, the plot isn't advancing, not even sloooooooooowly. What we have here is GW simply fleshing out the existing plot with greater depth and detail, which gives the illusion that the plot is advancing becase we are being presented with information we didn't have before. The reality is, we are still at the same point in time as we have always been. 999.M41.

 Maniac_nmt wrote:

If the Primarchs were still alive they would be vehemently opposed to the Imperium. There wouldn't be the slow decent into oblivion that the Imperium is currently facing.

clively wrote:
If the primarchs came back, the IoM would kill them.

Once the legions were broken up and the high lords were in full control there was no more reason for the loyalist primarchs to exist and a whole lot of reasons for them to go away. The roles they were to ultimately fulfill died the day Horus turned.

If any came back today it would cause a civil war which is the last thing humanity needs

You all keep forgetting that the Imperium of today was set up by the Primarchs, themselves. Roboute was High Lord of Terra and Rogal Dom stuck around with the Imperium even in its extremely horrible state for over 730 years after the Heresy ended (he was lost during the 1st Black Crusade, which happened 730 years after the Horus Heresy ended, if my information is correct). If they see that it's in such a bad state, they have only themselves to blame.

I think the more likely case if the Primarchs returned would be that they'd do so right in the middle of Abaddon's biggest Black Crusade ever, with the Daemon primarchs all over the place. At that point, they won't have TIME to institute a civil war against the Imperium, or even have time to consider just how bad the Imperium is today, although again, Roboute and Rogal Dom were ALREADY THERE even with the Imperium already in its super-bad state. Although I admit it's possible the Imperum was slightly better back then because the Ecclesiarchy didn't get established until 300 years or so after Dom was lost, but that assumes its current sad state is all the ecclesiarchy's fault, when I'm pretty sure it's a number of factors that did it, most of which were probably present even during Dom's life. Also, the Emperor's religion was already wide-spread way before the Ecclesiarchy was finally officially established so I'm sure Dom at least saw what was coming.

Roboute might ask for his seat back as a High Lord of Terra, and I imagine he'd quickly be given it, but that's probably as far as it'll go. With the Daemon primarchs running around, it's doubtful they'll have time to do much else.

Of note also is that Bjorn was there both before the Heresy and after, and you don't see him raising up a huge stink over what the Imperium's become. He's definitely not happy about it but he certainly doesn't appear to be so traumatized about it that he's calling for reform, so why would the Primarchs be? Especially when, again, they set it up themselves (or at least Roboute did, but several others were still around after the Heresy too).

You also have to remember that there already was a threat of civil war by the Primarchs after the Heresy (when Roboute was trying to set things up and establish the Codex). They quickly pulled back because they DID NOT WANT THAT, so why would they start a civil war today if they woke up after they've already been shown that they don't want it?

It saves them from trying to balance them for use on the tabletop.

Not having any rules means that they can be hyperbolised to no end, which makes the fluff awesome.

 Zed wrote:
It saves them from trying to balance them for use on the tabletop.

Not having any rules means that they can be hyperbolised to no end, which makes the fluff awesome.

But we have table top rules for them now (Horus Heresy series from Forgeworld)

Hell, Daemon Angron's had table top rules for a friggin' long time (he got rules with the 1st Armegeddon war campaign)

It's a setting, not a story.

There is no "plot" to 40K. Things do not "advance". What happens in the stories in the Codices and World-Wide Campaigns does not, in fact, change anything at all about the setting.

Oh, the Tyranids ate twenty worlds? Oh, look, the Imperium just found another 20 worlds on the opposite end of the galaxy!

Craftworld got blown up? What's that? Oh, it's another Craftworld, thought lost since the Fall, cruising out of the Eye of Terror and being all bad-ass about it.

... and so it goes. Nothing ever really *changes* in the setting, with some very few, notable exceptions (the Squats being the biggest of these), because it is not meant to be telling us, the consumers, a story, it is intended to allow us, the consumers, to build our own stories out of the setting.

 Medium of Death wrote:
I'd always wondered why no traitor Primarch dies other than Horus. Generally it's pretty ridiculous that more of the Primarchs aren't killed off during the Heresy.

If the others get a free pass, why does Ferrus Manus have to die so early on?

The Primarch of the XX (Alpha) Legion is dead.

General Duf wrote:

 Medium of Death wrote:
I'd always wondered why no traitor Primarch dies other than Horus. Generally it's pretty ridiculous that more of the Primarchs aren't killed off during the Heresy.

If the others get a free pass, why does Ferrus Manus have to die so early on?

The Primarch of the XX (Alpha) Legion is dead.

See my earlier post regarding 1/2 of the Alpha Legion Primarch. Even if Alpharius is dead, Omegron is alive. So is Alpharius. And Alpharius. Also Alpharius.

General Duf wrote:

The Primarch of the XX (Alpha) Legion is dead.

The one who gave the story of him dying turned out to be an Alpha Legoin operative in the first place.

Even the Ultramarines themselves have no records of this supposed battle where Roboute fought Alpharius.


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 Psienesis wrote:
It's a setting, not a story.

There is no "plot" to 40K. Things do not "advance". What happens in the stories in the Codices and World-Wide Campaigns does not, in fact, change anything at all about the setting.

Despite being around since 2nd Edition, Vladimir Pugh is dead and the Imperial Fists have a new chapter master, one with a significantly different personality than Pugh had. To any Imperial Fist fan, that counts as an advancement.

 Psienesis wrote:
It's a setting, not a story.

There is no "plot" to 40K. Things do not "advance". What happens in the stories in the Codices and World-Wide Campaigns does not, in fact, change anything at all about the setting.

Oh, the Tyranids ate twenty worlds? Oh, look, the Imperium just found another 20 worlds on the opposite end of the galaxy!

Craftworld got blown up? What's that? Oh, it's another Craftworld, thought lost since the Fall, cruising out of the Eye of Terror and being all bad-ass about it.

... and so it goes. Nothing ever really *changes* in the setting, with some very few, notable exceptions (the Squats being the biggest of these), because it is not meant to be telling us, the consumers, a story, it is intended to allow us, the consumers, to build our own stories out of the setting.

I was about to say that.

The story does not advange because GW is a miniture company and all they want to do is sell figures. They do not want to rock the boat and make any changes that will kill the golden goose.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

TiamatRoar wrote:

 Psienesis wrote:
It's a setting, not a story.

There is no "plot" to 40K. Things do not "advance". What happens in the stories in the Codices and World-Wide Campaigns does not, in fact, change anything at all about the setting.

Despite being around since 2nd Edition, Vladimir Pugh is dead and the Imperial Fists have a new chapter master, one with a significantly different personality than Pugh had. To any Imperial Fist fan, that counts as an advancement.

So after 25 years that is all we have?

Eldrad died, but now he is back stronger than ever. The Space Wolves (13th company?) came back and now they seem to be lost again.

 Blackmoor wrote:


So after 25 years that is all we have?

Eldrad died, but now he is back stronger than ever. The Space Wolves (13th company?) came back and now they seem to be lost again.

Tyranids were advancing too. Leviathan and the "Oh gak, they can outflank the GALAXY?" thing didn't come up until 4th Edition.

Dark Angels codex confirmed that the Lion will return once the Emperor gives the word.

6th Edition Big Rulebook now says the Daemon Primarchs are "rumoured to have been spotted" during the 13th Black Crusade. That wasn't there before.

I never said it was advancing QUICKLY but some things were definitely added that did move the story forward a little.

I reckon Alpharius is alive and on the council of Terra keeping the whole empire in a state of perpetual misery.....that would make a cracking black library story so long as it didn't leave you with a definate answer, is it him isn't it???

Any authors wanna buy my idea!!???

Not advancing the plot too much is good. part of why I got into 40k was because after years of playing battletech I kind of got sick of the complete lack of stability in their breakneck speed of advancing the story;ine

 Sir Arun wrote:
Chaos Legions have theirs, although those that are, are all horribly mutated and rulers of daemon worlds and not really interested in leading armies anymore.

Still, I feel that Sanguinius, Guilliman, Dorn, Manus and Khan can remain dead and the Lion can remain asleep, but the rest (Corax, Vulkan and Russ) would have very much had the chance to be alive, but GW went "feth it, let's just make these guys disappear so that no loyalist legions/chapters can have Primarchs leading them anymore". It kinda annoys me a lot, so what do you think?

Because all of the Primarchs are out of the story.

Logar is praying and never leaves his monastery
Moraton is trying to remake his homeworld and never leaves
Peturbo is building an ultimate fortress and never leaves
Magnus is discusted with Ahriman and sits around talking to Tzeench and never leaves
Fulgrim occationally goes out, but is only interested in pleasuring himself
Angron goes out, he goes out a lot, but it is more of mindlessly lashing out rather than any brilliant strategy. Few follow him.
Omegon is out, way out doing go knows what to god knows who. It is unlikely anyone knows him from any of the other legionaries

None of the chaos primarchs is any better off than dead. None lead a substantial amount of men or do much to affect the galaxy.

Well if any, Angron deserves 40k rules. And he got them for Apocalypse! He has led at least multiple excursions of blood-crazed lunatics and attacked Armageddon fairly recently. Much more than any other primarch. The loyalists must be out of it though, or the Imperium would unite and rock the entire galaxies balance, because some wouldn't believe the Primarch and would choose the Empy.

TiamatRoar wrote:Tyranids were advancing too. Leviathan and the "Oh gak, they can outflank the GALAXY?" thing didn't come up until 4th Edition.

And what has that changed?

Nothing. Absolutely nothing. They are still a swarm of locusts of countless numbers coming from somewhere outside the galaxy, but now we have more of them because using the names of mythological god-monsters is cool.

Nothing has *changed* about the Tyranid situation in 25 years. That there are now more Hive Fleets than there were previously doesn't *change* anything about the setting or move a story along in any significant way, because there isn't a story being told. We're going to see neither the eradication of the Nids nor of the Imperium, because they aren't going to Squat either of the associated product lines.

They're also not going to fundamentally change the nature of the setting as that would require actually re-writing all the Codices from that point forward, rather than just the copypasta job they do these days. You think they want to sit down and contemplate writing Codices for an Imperium broken into seventeen separate parts by the Hive Fleets? They don't, and they're not going to.

The same holds true for the threat of the Tau and the Necrons. They will always be threats, or threats on the horizon, and there may be future releases that allows one or both of these factions to enjoy some time in the limelight, but it's not going to significantly *change* anything.

Well the Tau have emerged and gotten 3 spheres of expansion.

Plus I doubt the Tyranids and Necrons were in the fluff from day one of Rogue Trader itself. I think they were added a bit later. Also, Necrons changed from mindless slaughterers to dynastic Tomb Kings in Spess.

But in the end the fluff hasn't really ended per say. The battle of Armageddon has grinded to a halt, the Black Crusade went from being kinda sorta over to IT IS ABOUT TO HAPPEN!, fluff got retconned to pretend like Tau have been there for some time and that Necrons have always been tomb kings in speesssss.

Now then, there might become a big story or game that goess on to describe this planet being destroyed or that... but hasn't it seemed odd that no matter the loss the Imperium still seems to run and oppose all of these armies? I really don't think that you need to look further than the Black Crusade retcon to realize that the story of 40k doesn't progress. It just goes back in time and changes some stuff up/flshes it out.

Alpha 1 wrote:
The only Primachs that are confirmed dead are the Farhaus, Sanginius, and Dorn. The others have vanished or in the case of Gilliam he seems to be regenerating his wounds and may awake. I have heard rumors that when the golden throne fails it will mark the return of the Emporer and the Primachs both good and bad. But who knows what GW has planned.

P.S Sorry for the awful spelling

actually is debatable whether dorn is dead or not.

There's no Primarchs around because that would de-mystify the legend. It seems a lot more fitting for a setting like this to feature various saviour-figures without actually having them around. Certainly, the Imperium still has its living heroes like Yarrick or Dante, but with a long-dead persona you can easily ascribe all sorts of amazing feats to their story without being contradicted by actual events, such as them being wounded or even killed in battle, or - worst case scenario - not even being killed in a heroic manner like a duel against a powerful enemy leader, but just being dropped by some basic troops. The alternative would be to actually make them as epic, invulnerable and amazing as some of their legends indicate, which (or so I think) would get boring quickly because you'd have a bunch of larger-than-life people stealing everyone's show and letting the actual armies or the "normal" heroes take a backseat.

No, I believe that letting them - and the Emperor, for that matter - remain things of legend is the smarter choice. It ultimately offers more room for interpretation, too, which allows every fan to pick the perspective they are more comfortable with.

TiamatRoar wrote:Dark Angels codex confirmed that the Lion will return once the Emperor gives the word.

I'd hardly call myths and propaganda a "confirmation". The fluff (fortunately) doesn't work that way.