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Speaking of marine height. I think it's a bit weird the Emperor made them so big. Their huge frame and 7 feet height should give them a lot of trouble in urban combat and especially boarding actions.

A solid door frame would be enough to stop an entire Space Marine crusade!

Doors in 40k are really big.

Those that are too small are made bigger by the Marine's entrance.

 Gargantuan wrote:
Speaking of marine height. I think it's a bit weird the Emperor made them so big. Their huge frame and 7 feet height should give them a lot of trouble in urban combat and especially boarding actions.

A solid door frame would be enough to stop an entire Space Marine crusade!

Melta bombs, breaching charges and chainfists help against that particular concern

Regarding marine weights, 1000lb is about 4.5kN. Normal office building design assumes about that number as your basic additional load allowance per square metre on a structure (not including self-weight of materials or safety factors).

So a marine wandering around on his own in a modern office building would probably be ok, provided he wasn't climbing over solid stone furniture Getting more than 1 marine in a 1 square metre area is also likely to be problematic due to their size. Also at about 500kg each you could get 2 or 3 of them, weight wise, into modern lifts, so its not too likely that they would cause severe structural damage through weight alone. however, add in a bit of combat damage and you'll quickly need a pretty solid umbrella as it starts raining power armour

Oh, I guess this also ignores the effects of any suspensor kit that the armour or weapons are equipped with to negate portions of their weight.

I am now going to go and contemplate the image of marines lining up to use the lifts while enjoying the muzak

Flinty wrote:I am now going to go and contemplate the image of marines lining up to use the lifts while enjoying the muzak

Reminds me of this now:

 Lynata wrote:
Reminds me of this now:

Spoiler:

Not that funny or much of mystery - cautiously and only one marine per two steps.

PS Being 500lbs myself, can say that all non-rotten wooden steps usually survive me with two average-sized buddes at same step - but easily can splinter if i'd jump on them...

 Omegus wrote:

 BrotherHaraldus wrote:
I thought the Marines were at least 8'?

Saw a picture of it somewhere.

I think we can allow some variance to Marine height. If someone of average height would become 7'6" upon becoming a Space Marine, what happens when the 7'6" basketball player becomes a Space Marine? I guess then you get the 9' tall Abnettmarines.

There are some unusually big Marines out there. The Grey Knights trilogy mentions one who is bigger than your average marine (he wields a Nemisis Force Hammer) and then their is Captain Silas from the Exorcists Chapter who is described as being as big as an Ogryn.

 Lynata wrote:
\especially on feral worlds where people generally wouldn't grow very high due to local diet (see medieval body heights).

Questionable - most of described feral worlds are NOT medieval agricultural societies, mostly they're hunters thus their warriors/hunters should be normally 6+ feet tall.

chyron wrote:

 Lynata wrote:
\especially on feral worlds where people generally wouldn't grow very high due to local diet (see medieval body heights).

Questionable - most of described feral worlds are NOT medieval agricultural societies, mostly they're hunters thus their warriors/hunters should be normally 6+ feet tall.

Is that why there are Pygmy tribes in South America who are definitely no where near 6'?

Just because you hunt doesn't mean you'll be tall. Nature favors those best suited to their environments, which means if being tall is what works best, you'll be tall, and vice versa (assuming enough time for favorable traits to be bred through the culture adopting certain aspects as being seen as "strong" or "beneficial").

Nutrition and calorie intake also limits a person's height. Just look at North Korea. So if their not a particularly well fed people they may not grow to be tall because their bodies don't get enough calories to support being tall.

 ClockworkZion wrote:

chyron wrote:

 Lynata wrote:
\especially on feral worlds where people generally wouldn't grow very high due to local diet (see medieval body heights).

Questionable - most of described feral worlds are NOT medieval agricultural societies, mostly they're hunters thus their warriors/hunters should be normally 6+ feet tall.

Is that why there are Pygmy tribes in South America who are definitely no where near 6'?

Just because you hunt doesn't mean you'll be tall. Nature favors those best suited to their environments, which means if being tall is what works best, you'll be tall, and vice versa (assuming enough time for favorable traits to be bred through the culture adopting certain aspects as being seen as "strong" or "beneficial").

Nutrition and calorie intake also limits a person's height. Just look at North Korea. So if their not a particularly well fed people they may not grow to be tall because their bodies don't get enough calories to support being tall.

Depends on what you are hunting.

If you're hunting large megafauna you'll have a more reliable source of protein.

Jungles also aren't as nutrient dense as open grasslands or temperate forests.

 Grey Templar wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:

chyron wrote:

 Lynata wrote:
\especially on feral worlds where people generally wouldn't grow very high due to local diet (see medieval body heights).

Questionable - most of described feral worlds are NOT medieval agricultural societies, mostly they're hunters thus their warriors/hunters should be normally 6+ feet tall.

Is that why there are Pygmy tribes in South America who are definitely no where near 6'?

Just because you hunt doesn't mean you'll be tall. Nature favors those best suited to their environments, which means if being tall is what works best, you'll be tall, and vice versa (assuming enough time for favorable traits to be bred through the culture adopting certain aspects as being seen as "strong" or "beneficial").

Nutrition and calorie intake also limits a person's height. Just look at North Korea. So if their not a particularly well fed people they may not grow to be tall because their bodies don't get enough calories to support being tall.

Depends on what you are hunting.

If you're hunting large megafauna you'll have a more reliable source of protein.

Jungles also aren't as nutrient dense as open grasslands or temperate forests.

So the millions of available species on the Amazon and we're claiming their not nutrient dense? Seriously? There is more protein per square foot in the Amazon than you'll find in a square foot in a grassland. Or are we neglecting the fact that there a lot of things that are edible that have more then 4 legs and hooves?

 Lynata wrote:

Flinty wrote:I am now going to go and contemplate the image of marines lining up to use the lifts while enjoying the muzak

Reminds me of this now:

Spoiler:

Lulz

To be fair, though, marines don't necessarily need stairs because they can just jump up through the floor, or arrive koolaidman style into a residence

 Void__Dragon wrote:
I can't recall a Space Marine ever actually standing in, say, a rusty shack.

Probably because it only gave a 6+ cover save


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Lynata wrote:

Flinty wrote:I am now going to go and contemplate the image of marines lining up to use the lifts while enjoying the muzak

Reminds me of this now:

Spoiler:

Crying w/laughter

Flinty wrote:or arrive koolaidman style into a residence

Not quite what I had hoped to find, but still close enough:

The internet is glorious sometimes.

Actually I find the idea of varying heights, in contemporary marines, to be somewhat odd. The level of control involved in the selection process would, I presume, exclude those who deviated either too far up or down. After all if you have to create power armour, with no true technological understanding, from a template by rote you're going to need the wearers to fall within a narrow size range. Predicting height isn't exactly hard- we do it today with reasonable accuracy and I can't imagine the Imperium is any worse at it.

Weight is one of the reasons why I'm a strong believer they should be carrying hi powered las weapons over huge, heavy bolt rounds (as a general rule anyway). I can't imagine bolters and their ammunition are not light- a box of .50cal ammo weights about 35 pounds. Admittedly that's 100 rounds but it's also .50 and not the .75 of bolters. The other issue of course is that a 20 round clip of bolt ammo must take up significant space and is drastic overkill for many adversaries.

Also for what it's worth the 'exhaust vents' back in the day used to be thrusters (indeed the same packs were used by the now non existent IG assault troops). Useful I imagine for boarding ships in a vacuum as well as general movement.

 ClockworkZion wrote:

So the millions of available species on the Amazon and we're claiming their not nutrient dense? Seriously? There is more protein per square foot in the Amazon than you'll find in a square foot in a grassland. Or are we neglecting the fact that there a lot of things that are edible that have more then 4 legs and hooves?

Really. Too much energy is used at lower consumption levels, too many consumers at top level other than Homo. Not to mention that these areas are actually overcrowded for hunter-gatherer lifestyle.

Anyway, recent studies show that small height of african pygmies is locked to their immune system evolution via hormones, not other factors - so in M40 terms they're half-way to ratlings, not the kind of gene-pure humans Chapters chose for recruits. I think similar mutation is in american pygmies genes too - evolution likes to work in parallels.





Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Kojiro wrote:
Actually I find the idea of varying heights, in contemporary marines, to be somewhat odd. The level of control involved in the selection process would, I presume, exclude those who deviated either too far up or down. After all if you have to create power armour, with no true technological understanding, from a template by rote you're going to need the wearers to fall within a narrow size range. Predicting height isn't exactly hard- we do it today with reasonable accuracy and I can't imagine the Imperium is any worse at it.

Considering how precious (and mutated) gene-seed is in M40 - i think that only really big unexpected size deviations are declined/purged (and we don't know what's in physical and genetic screening of recruits). When gene-seed is already committed and "takes" well - you've better find _very_ good reason to lose it. Making custom armour is less a problem than losing almost-SM (even for Marine Malevolent)
SMs are not clone troopers to be of exactly same dimensions, i think powerarmour was created to be adjustable a lot since beginning. Not to mention that most things which need remodelling are just carapace itself, not servos, power source or electronics - ie something within capabilities not only of TechMarines but most probably of their serfs and servitors who repair basic battle damage.

I also think that normal power armour suits can allow for a reasonable range of size. Flexible joints and overlapping plates provide some flexibility for differences in arm, leg and torso length. Marines with extraordinary girth (careful) I would suppose have specially constructed armour, or all armour is deliberately oversized with the ability to fit padded liners of different thicknesses. There are definately a number of individuals named in the background that are noted as being of extraordiary size, even for marines.

The "expanded" background in various novels etc, for sure, but those don't have to care for the numbers put out in Codex fluff and could just pretend that they're all that big.

Certainly some of the armour parts would allow for some flexibility - simply because said parts are not worn "skintight" - but all? If one would go by the illustrations, things like arm and leg pieces are enclosed shells with a fixed length and diameter. And a "9 foot Marine" would certainly experience some difficulty getting in and out of a Rhino, which already must feel damn small for the Astartes.

Actually, considering that we're talking about extensive genetical engineering and biochemical body tuning, I wouldn't put it past the Space Marine Chapters to deliberately tweak the body heights of their recruits to certain standards just to make sure they conform to a universal equipment size. This at least would circumvent possible recruitment restrictions.

chyron wrote:When gene-seed is already committed and "takes" well - you've better find _very_ good reason to lose it. Making custom armour is less a problem than losing almost-SM (even for Marine Malevolent)

Technically, a certain body height could be amongst the criteria of selection in the first place, before implantation occurs.
There are surely more ridiculous reasons for dismissing potential aspirants that are still practiced (example: Salamanders -> "Well, it seems you are compatible with our Primarch's geneseed, but seeing as you're a lousy blacksmith we have no use for you, sorry." ).

Ultimately, I suppose it's a matter of interpretation and personal preferences, i.e. how badly you want Marines that exceed the 7-7.6 range provided by GW. As long as people are at least aware of what the various sources say and keep this in mind when discussing the issue, I see nothing wrong with preferring own ideas, or those of some novel author. I'm doing the same for my own headcanon.

 Lynata wrote:

Actually, considering that we're talking about extensive genetic engineering and biochemical body tuning, I wouldn't put it past the Space Marine Chapters to deliberately tweak the body heights of their recruits to certain standards just to make sure they conform to a universal equipment size. This at least would circumvent possible recruitment restrictions.

It's possible that the SM gene-seed is hard capped at a certain size, and that only exceptions (mutations in the seed) have unusual sizes (possibly evidenced by the fact that a "differently sized" marine tends to be a noteworthy point in such novels).

Anyway, recent studies show that small height of african pygmies is locked to their immune system evolution via hormones, not other factors - so in M40 terms they're half-way to ratlings, not the kind of gene-pure humans Chapters chose for recruits

Few Chapters get gene-pure recruits. Some of the most-famous of Loyalist Chapters start out with genetically-damaged recruits.

 Omegus wrote:

 Psienesis wrote:
A naked Space Marine weighs, himself, 780 pounds.

lol

No.

That seems a little on the heavy side, but definitely over 600 pounds given the fluff height of 7-7.5 feet. They sometimes get taller if some random TBL author decides they should, but the official artwork we've seen puts them at the seven and a half foot range. http://th02.deviantart.net/fs71/PRE/i/2011/340/7/b/jes_goodwin_is_legend_by_rumbles-d4iddxe.jpg Given that he isn't standing directly straight up, take the 7' height here, and the extra half a foot seems about right.

But, either way, remember a Space Marine is not just tall, he is thick and broad, with a denser musculature and skeletal structure. He has extra internal organs and the subdermal Black Carapace sheath. Everything about the Space Marine is designed to be bigger, and the heavier and more massive a living organism gets, the stronger support structure it needs. That's why a lot of the world's tallest human beings suffer from degenerative disorders in their joints, ligaments and muscles. The human body wasn't designed to be that big and heavy.

So, by that line of thinking, if Space Marines are designed to live hundreds, even thousands of years (in theory), everything about their bodies is going to be thicker, denser, and more durable. And thus heavier.

They could definitely be in the range of 600 pounds.

Considering we have 300lb football players its not too much of a stretch to think a marine could be around twice as heavy.

Marine bone material is denser than normal human bone, and they have extra mass relative to their size than a human does(the ribcage alone could be a hundred pounds or so)

Add another solid 8-12" of height and twice the girth and you've got a pretty hefty dude.

 ClockworkZion wrote:

 Omegus wrote:

 BrotherHaraldus wrote:
I thought the Marines were at least 8'?

Saw a picture of it somewhere.

I think we can allow some variance to Marine height. If someone of average height would become 7'6" upon becoming a Space Marine, what happens when the 7'6" basketball player becomes a Space Marine? I guess then you get the 9' tall Abnettmarines.

There are some unusually big Marines out there. The Grey Knights trilogy mentions one who is bigger than your average marine (he wields a Nemisis Force Hammer) and then their is Captain Silas from the Exorcists Chapter who is described as being as big as an Ogryn.

and the Ultramarines books describes a charcter whose big eneugh that they basicly needed to adapt a wrecked set of terminator armor into standard armor for him

BrianDavion wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:

 Omegus wrote:

 BrotherHaraldus wrote:
I thought the Marines were at least 8'?

Saw a picture of it somewhere.

I think we can allow some variance to Marine height. If someone of average height would become 7'6" upon becoming a Space Marine, what happens when the 7'6" basketball player becomes a Space Marine? I guess then you get the 9' tall Abnettmarines.

There are some unusually big Marines out there. The Grey Knights trilogy mentions one who is bigger than your average marine (he wields a Nemisis Force Hammer) and then their is Captain Silas from the Exorcists Chapter who is described as being as big as an Ogryn.

and the Ultramarines books describes a charcter whose big eneugh that they basicly needed to adapt a wrecked set of terminator armor into standard armor for him

Bolter ---> Porn.