40K fluff VS Starwars fluff

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**Exergy**

but but but, the Hoth Ion Cannon!

**Orblivion**

Whatever hyperspace might be, it at least isn't completely entering a parallel universe like warp travel is. Even in the movies it is specified that it is still possible to collide with objects in the material realm while in hyperspace. It is further expanded in the EU to explain that gravitational fields affect hyperspace, which is why the Empire's Interdictor Cruiser was so effective.

EDIT: I completely agree with Grey Templar's point about the ridiculous numbers we are given by Star Wars material. The "saviour" clone army deployed in the prequels originally numbered 200,000 troops to be deployed across an entire galaxy. Recent history shows us that the US had nearly double that number stationed in Iraq alone.

**Da krimson barun**

Happyjew wrote:
The problem is we don't have the necessary information.

For example, how powerful is a Las-shot? Can it make it through Stormtrooper armour.

ANYTHING can make it through stormtrooper armour.Ask the stormtroopers who fought at the battle of endor....Oh wait rocks fell they all died.

**Happyjew**

Actually, a number of Stormtroopers that were killed by Ewoks, were knocked down to ground where the Ewoks would have had easy access to the weak rubber joints.

The actual armour portion of stormtrooper armour is rather strong. When a person in armour is hit by a thrown spear hard enough to be thrown across the room, and the armour only has a small nick, that is some pretty well made armour.

**Maniac_nmt**

Psienesis wrote:
What Zookie said.

The authors of the Black Library are given pretty much free reign to write whatever they want in their stories, and are not constrained by the information provided in the Codices or in any other BL novel, FW publication, White Dwarf, Citadel Journal or any other source of 40K information.

If a BL author wants to write a love story between an Eldar Farseer and a Space Wolf, resulting in furry cubs with pointy ears, s/he can totally do that. If a BL author wants to have the Rhinos driven by wise-cracking servitors that pop wheelies (trackies?) and do sick... and by "sick" I mean "totally sweet"... jumps, s/he can.

Star Wars writers? They can't really do that in most cases. There are well-established boundaries of what things can and cannot do. AT-STs don't tap-dance, for example. The tech is, within the universe, fairly well-established and categorized around what it can and cannot do.

Most importantly, the Star Wars fandom has an established order of canon, based on sources, of what overwrites what. It starts at things George Lucas says and goes down to things like video games, comic books, and other, third-party products. Basically, though, something in Star Wars is canon until something with a higher rank in the canon comes along and contradicts it. Some things, though, like the Star Wars Infinities comic books, are universally non-canon.

That's only partially true, as for a long time (don't know the current status), almost all Starwars stuff not directly put out by Lucasfilm was specified to be not cannon. Shadows of the Empire, which came out long after a very huge bulk of Starwars fluff was the first ever recognized by Lucas as official cannon bit of fluff.

So the Solo kids, Splinter of the Minds Eye (Luke and Vader's first fight 'in the flesh'), Grand Admiral Thrawn, and others were all completely 'servitors popping wheelies' (in Splinter of the Mind's eye Vader effectively flies, not hyper leaps, but basically flies, and shoots Ken/Ryu Hadookens at Luke). This could be different, but as far as I know, there are only a few truly cannon bits of Star Wars fluff (and there are stuff just as crazy in the novels/fluff for Starwars as 'wheelie popping servitors). They do, however, try to play nicely with each other better than the BL does.

raiden wrote:
It would be an interesting battle thats for sure. but, I think las-shots can penetrate stormtrooper armor, I don't see the blasters that they use as much better than the lasuns the IG use. lascannons would probably penetrate the armor of the AT-AT but not the bigger ones and god save me I for the life of me cannot remember what they are called.

From what I recall, and I don't know that it is official, but Blasters are "more powerful"l than laser weapons in Star Wars. They're more of a particle beam/plasma type weapon than a raw laser, and the blaster has largely replaced the laser in most cases as it is all round better.

The AT-AT (All Terrain Armoured Transport if memory serves) is the name of the big one, the AT-ST (All Terrain Scout Transport) is the chicken walker that you are likely thinking of.

**Happyjew**

Regarding Star Wars Cannon:

As for Star Wars, the same individual asked similar questions of Leland Chee (maintainer of the Star Wars Holocron, which is an internal continuity database which is kept secret from the public and which informs Star Wars authors what they must stay consistent to), and he responded with this:

The database does indeed have a canon field. Anything in the films and from George Lucas (including unpublished internal notes that we might receive from him or from the film production department) is considered "G" canon. Next we have what we call continuity "C" canon which is pretty much everything else. There is secondary "S" continuity canon which we use for some older published materials and things that may or may not fit just right. But, if it is referenced in something else it becomes "C". Similarly, any "C" canon item that makes it into the films can become "G" canon. Lastly, there is non-continuity "N" which we rarely use except in the case of a blatant contradiction or for things that have been cut.

I will not go into specifics as to what is considered "S" canon or what items that are seemingly "C" canon are actually "G" canon.

When challenged by certain agenda-driven individuals who claimed that they studied George Lucas' public interviews and therefore knew his intentions better than people who worked with him professionally, Mr. Chee further clarified with this:

All contradictions are dealt with case-by-case ... Does LucasFilm Ltd. itself actually have a Canon Policy? No.
...
The quote you provide makes it sound like the EU is separate from George's vision of the Star Wars universe. It is not.

So in summary, the policy of Lucasfilm is that the books count, although not as highly as the movies.

**Maniac_nmt**

Interesting, I know when Shadows of the Empire came out it was a huge deal that is was the first official Starwars spin off. The game, book, and comic were sold as the first bits to be 'yes that really happened'. At the time I want to say Lucas had a 'this is neat, and you can follow it if you want, but it has no bearing on anything' attitude towards anything not the original trilogy and Shadows.

I cannot remember now if that was also held to be true for Shadows of the Force (obviously only one of the two endings could actually occur, but it got into the ludicrous realm with pulling Star Destroyers into a planet, flying jedi, and a guy who pretty effortlessly beat the carp out of both Vader and the Emperor).

**IHateNids**

All Terrain Assault Transport, but you weren't far off

The Scout Walkers are also probably at least the size of a Dreadnought if not bigger, and the AT-ATs would probably be able to stand on at least half of a Chimera/Rhino with one foot, and not even at Max Firepower should easily be able to one-shot a Land Raider, seeing as how it one-shotted a Shield Generator about 4 times it's size when at max.

**Grey Templar**

The AT-AT was inside the shield.

And really, if something can get brought down by wrapping its legs in tow cables its not much of a threat. I mean its already a sitting duck for any antitank weapon the imperium has within 10 kilometers and it doesn't even have the mobility of a Titan to save it.

The AT-AT also doesn't have shields, only armor. So the first war hound that comes along is just going to one shot it. Or even a formation of LRBTs will knock it over with multiple battle cannon rounds.

Of course, it is only a transport not a battle tank.

**Happyjew**

The AT-AT's poor close-in combat capability is simply the inevitable side-effect of its sheer size and power. Real-life heavy armour is similarly limited at short ranges, hence the need for support from light vehicles and infantry. In the case of the AT-AT, it derives close-range support from its AT-ST escorts, which were seen in both TESB and ROTJ. While the AT-STs cannot do battle with enemy artillery, assault fortifications, and destroy large structures, they can support the vehicles which can, by keeping their flanks clear of infantry and light vehicles. This is a good example of the sort of complementary weapon classes which normally work together in real-life armies, as well as the Imperial army.

**Grey Templar**

Somehow, I'm not impressed by a vehicle which exploded when it was sandwitched between a couple logs or loses its balance so easily.

**Happyjew**

Grey Templar wrote:
Somehow, I'm not impressed by a vehicle which exploded when it was sandwitched between a couple logs or loses its balance so easily.

What you mean the lightly armoured Scout Walkers?

**Silverthorne**

So how would an X wing stack up to a thunderbolt? Or an A wing to a lightning?

**kinratha**

Well this will turn into a "My made up world is better then your made up world"

My votes on 40k

But i'm sure there will be someone alone shorty to tell me that im wrong.

**KommissarKiln**

Banzaimash wrote:
Happyjew wrote:
The problem is we don't have the necessary information.

For example, how powerful is a Las-shot? Can it make it through Stormtrooper armour?

I should hope so, considering 2 foot teddy bears with rocks and sticks managed to trash a battalion of stormtroopers

To anyone else remembering Endor, just remember that most of the little fuzz balls and main characters had plot armor. That's a 0+ armor save, in 40k terms.

**IHateNids**

Very true.

I think both of the forces win in some areas.

IoM has range, numbers, and firepower on there side

GE has speed, efficiency, and no shortage of their own firepower

I say it based on the scenario.

**Happyjew**

kinratha wrote:
Well this will turn into a "My made up world is better then your made up world"

My votes on 40k

But i'm sure there will be someone alone shorty to tell me that im wrong.

I disagree. Seeing as how we do not have hard number, or the necessary information to calculate the numbers needed, we can't really make comparisons. For example, assuming Earth-like in nature, it is not that hard to calculate the mount of energy required to destroy a planet in less than 4 seconds (as seen in Star Wars) would require 1E38 Joules. And this is on the low end.

Compared to Cyclonic Missiles (Two-Stage) we have no idea how quickly they would be able to destroy a planet.

Neither fictional world is "better" but they are different.

**Robbiedbee**

Omegus wrote:
The Star Wars EU has plenty of good books, certainly better than most stuff from BL.

I disagree. Although I've only read about 10 BL novels (cf. ~40 SW), I generally find the quality to be much better on average. Although, when a Star Wars book is good, it is very very good. There are a great deal though that are utter drivel, perhaps I'm just lucky in my selection of BL titles so far?

**raiden**

would the book about jedi knight Revan fall into the good or bad in your view?

**Da krimson barun**

Happyjew wrote:
kinratha wrote:
Well this will turn into a "My made up world is better then your made up world"

My votes on 40k

But i'm sure there will be someone alone shorty to tell me that im wrong.

I disagree. Seeing as how we do not have hard number, or the necessary information to calculate the numbers needed, we can't really make comparisons. For example, assuming Earth-like in nature, it is not that hard to calculate the mount of energy required to destroy a planet in less than 4 seconds (as seen in Star Wars) would require 1E38 Joules. And this is on the low end.

Compared to Cyclonic Missiles (Two-Stage) we have no idea how quickly they would be able to destroy a planet.

Neither fictional world is "better" but they are different.

How many Imperial navy ships have cyclonic missles?And how many GE ships have a death star super laser?

**Exergy**

Orblivion wrote:
Whatever hyperspace might be, it at least isn't completely entering a parallel universe like warp travel is. Even in the movies it is specified that it is still possible to collide with objects in the material realm while in hyperspace. It is further expanded in the EU to explain that gravitational fields affect hyperspace, which is why the Empire's Interdictor Cruiser was so effective.

EDIT: I completely agree with Grey Templar's point about the ridiculous numbers we are given by Star Wars material. The "saviour" clone army deployed in the prequels originally numbered 200,000 troops to be deployed across an entire galaxy. Recent history shows us that the US had nearly double that number stationed in Iraq alone.

both universes, and star trek for that matter have real scaling problems. North Korea has more soldiers today than the IoM has space marines.

At least star wars has planets with 200+ billion people. 40k has hive cities with 10billion, slightly more than we have today on earth.

In any advanced star faring empire you are going to need new units of measure to talk about the number of people in any function. Current earth could probably support an army of 200 million, or 2*10^8. If you had 100,000 worlds one might expect you to have armies on the order of 10^15 in total war scenarios.

**StarTrotter**

KommissarKiln wrote:
Banzaimash wrote:
Happyjew wrote:
The problem is we don't have the necessary information.

For example, how powerful is a Las-shot? Can it make it through Stormtrooper armour?

I should hope so, considering 2 foot teddy bears with rocks and sticks managed to trash a battalion of stormtroopers

More like a 2+ save, 2+ invuln save reroll able, and a 2+ FNP (just a small enough chance for them to kill main characters)

To anyone else remembering Endor, just remember that most of the little fuzz balls and main characters had plot armor. That's a 0+ armor save, in 40k terms.

**Psienesis**

Maniac_nmt wrote:
Psienesis wrote:
What Zookie said.

The authors of the Black Library are given pretty much free reign to write whatever they want in their stories, and are not constrained by the information provided in the Codices or in any other BL novel, FW publication, White Dwarf, Citadel Journal or any other source of 40K information.

If a BL author wants to write a love story between an Eldar Farseer and a Space Wolf, resulting in furry cubs with pointy ears, s/he can totally do that. If a BL author wants to have the Rhinos driven by wise-cracking servitors that pop wheelies (trackies?) and do sick... and by "sick" I mean "totally sweet"... jumps, s/he can.

Star Wars writers? They can't really do that in most cases. There are well-established boundaries of what things can and cannot do. AT-STs don't tap-dance, for example. The tech is, within the universe, fairly well-established and categorized around what it can and cannot do.

Most importantly, the Star Wars fandom has an established order of canon, based on sources, of what overwrites what. It starts at things George Lucas says and goes down to things like video games, comic books, and other, third-party products. Basically, though, something in Star Wars is canon until something with a higher rank in the canon comes along and contradicts it. Some things, though, like the Star Wars Infinities comic books, are universally non-canon.

That's only partially true, as for a long time (don't know the current status), almost all Starwars stuff not directly put out by Lucasfilm was specified to be not cannon. Shadows of the Empire, which came out long after a very huge bulk of Starwars fluff was the first ever recognized by Lucas as official cannon bit of fluff.

So the Solo kids, Splinter of the Minds Eye (Luke and Vader's first fight 'in the flesh'), Grand Admiral Thrawn, and others were all completely 'servitors popping wheelies' (in Splinter of the Mind's eye Vader effectively flies, not hyper leaps, but basically flies, and shoots Ken/Ryu Hadookens at Luke). This could be different, but as far as I know, there are only a few truly cannon bits of Star Wars fluff (and there are stuff just as crazy in the novels/fluff for Starwars as 'wheelie popping servitors). They do, however, try to play nicely with each other better than the BL does.

Could have saved you some trouble:

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Canon

... been this way for years now.

The important bits, because a lot of that article is long and repetitive:

Wookieepedia wrote:
In 2000, Lucas Licensing appointed Leland Chee to create a continuity-tracking database referred to as the Holocron continuity database. The Holocron follows the canon policy that has been in effect for years, but the capabilities of database software allow for each element of a story, rather than the stories themselves, to be classified on their own merits.
The Holocron's database includes an area for a single-letter (G, T, C, S, N or D) representing the level of canonicity of that element; these letters have since informally been applied to the levels of canon themselves: G-canon, T-canon, C-canon, S-canon, N-canon and D-canon. As part of his work with the Holocron, Chee was responsible for the creation of this classification, and he spent the early stages developing and refining them into what they are today.

G, T, C and S together form the overall Star Wars continuity. Each ascending level typically overrides the lower ones; for example, Boba Fett's back story was radically altered with the release of Star Wars Episode II: Attack of the Clones, forcing the retcon of older source material to fall in line with the new G-canon back story. However, this is not always absolute, and the resolution of all contradictions is handled on a case-by-case basis.

G-canon is George Lucas Canon; the six Episodes and any statements by George Lucas (including unpublished production notes from him or his production department that are never seen by the public). Elements originating with Lucas in the movie novelizations, reference books, and other sources are also G-canon, though anything created by the authors of those sources is C-canon. When the matter of changes between movie versions arises, the most recently released editions are deemed superior to older ones, as they correct mistakes, improve consistency between the two trilogies, and express Lucas's current vision of the Star Wars universe most closely. The deleted scenes included on the DVDs are also considered G-canon (when they're not in conflict with the movie).[1]

T-canon,[2] or Television Canon[3], refers to the canon level comprising the feature film Star Wars: The Clone Wars and the two television shows Star Wars: The Clone Wars and the Star Wars live-action TV series.[4][5] It was devised recently in order to define a status above the C-Level canon, as confirmed by Chee[6].

C-canon is Continuity Canon, consisting of all recent works (and many older works) released under the name of Star Wars: books, comics, games, cartoons, non-theatrical films, and more. Games are a special case, as generally only the stories are C-canon, while things like stats and gameplay may not be;[7] they also offer non-canonical options to the player, such as choosing female gender for a canonically male character. C-canon elements have been known to appear in the movies, thus making them G-canon; examples include the name "Coruscant," swoop bikes, Quinlan Vos, Aayla Secura, YT-2400 freighters and Action VI transports.

S-canon is Secondary Canon; the materials are available to be used or ignored as needed by current authors. This includes mostly older works, such as much of the Marvel Star Wars comics, that predate a consistent effort to maintain continuity; it also contains certain elements of a few otherwise N-canon stories, and other things that "may not fit just right." Many formerly S-canon elements have been elevated to C-canon through their inclusion in more recent works by continuity-minded authors, while many other older works (such as The Han Solo Adventures) were accounted for in continuity from the start despite their age, and thus were always C-canon.

N is Non-Canon. What-if stories (such as stories published under the Infinities label) and anything else directly and irreconcilably contradicted by higher canon ends up here. N is the only level that is not considered canon by Lucasfilm. Information cut from canon, deleted scenes, or from canceled Star Wars works falls into this category as well, unless another canonical work references it and it is declared canon.

D is Detours Canon, used for material hailing from Star Wars Detours.

**Overlord Thraka**

IoM vs GE... IoM BUT then the Yuuzehn Vong would come and get at the IoM. Probably defeating it
Also, Wookies /thread

**Happyjew**

Overlord Thraka wrote:
IoM vs GE... IoM BUT then the Yuuzehn Vong would come and get at the IoM. Probably defeating it

Naw, Tyranids would mess them up before they could even reach the IoM. Their whole thing is "bio-technology" which equals Tyranid foodstuff.

**Harriticus**

Star Wars is a much more developed universe and is much more maturely written. GW really has little idea what they're doing on just about every aspect of their product.

That being said EU has produced a lot of shlock over the years.

**Ashiraya**

IoM wins, because a grizzled scarred helmetless Marine sergeant clad in the finest plot armour available to the Imperium of Man will clean the floor with the GE's face.

**Grey Templar**

Exergy wrote:
Orblivion wrote:
Whatever hyperspace might be, it at least isn't completely entering a parallel universe like warp travel is. Even in the movies it is specified that it is still possible to collide with objects in the material realm while in hyperspace. It is further expanded in the EU to explain that gravitational fields affect hyperspace, which is why the Empire's Interdictor Cruiser was so effective.

EDIT: I completely agree with Grey Templar's point about the ridiculous numbers we are given by Star Wars material. The "saviour" clone army deployed in the prequels originally numbered 200,000 troops to be deployed across an entire galaxy. Recent history shows us that the US had nearly double that number stationed in Iraq alone.

both universes, and star trek for that matter have real scaling problems. North Korea has more soldiers today than the IoM has space marines.

At least star wars has planets with 200+ billion people. 40k has hive cities with 10billion, slightly more than we have today on earth.

In any advanced star faring empire you are going to need new units of measure to talk about the number of people in any function. Current earth could probably support an army of 200 million, or 2*10^8. If you had 100,000 worlds one might expect you to have armies on the order of 10^15 in total war scenarios.

Those cities are nearly always only one of up to several dozen than will dot a particular planet. So the average 40k hive world is going to have several trillion people at least.

And remember the definition of Billion when most of GW's numbers were written was the Imperial definition of Billion, which in our modern numerical designations is actually Trillion. So when GW gives the population of a planet in billions its actually in trillions.

**raiden**

Grey Templar wrote:
Exergy wrote:
Orblivion wrote:
Whatever hyperspace might be, it at least isn't completely entering a parallel universe like warp travel is. Even in the movies it is specified that it is still possible to collide with objects in the material realm while in hyperspace. It is further expanded in the EU to explain that gravitational fields affect hyperspace, which is why the Empire's Interdictor Cruiser was so effective.

EDIT: I completely agree with Grey Templar's point about the ridiculous numbers we are given by Star Wars material. The "saviour" clone army deployed in the prequels originally numbered 200,000 troops to be deployed across an entire galaxy. Recent history shows us that the US had nearly double that number stationed in Iraq alone.

both universes, and star trek for that matter have real scaling problems. North Korea has more soldiers today than the IoM has space marines.

At least star wars has planets with 200+ billion people. 40k has hive cities with 10billion, slightly more than we have today on earth.

In any advanced star faring empire you are going to need new units of measure to talk about the number of people in any function. Current earth could probably support an army of 200 million, or 2*10^8. If you had 100,000 worlds one might expect you to have armies on the order of 10^15 in total war scenarios.

Those cities are nearly always only one of up to several dozen than will dot a particular planet. So the average 40k hive world is going to have several trillion people at least.

And remember the definition of Billion when most of GW's numbers were written was the Imperial definition of Billion, which in our modern numerical designations is actually Trillion. So when GW gives the population of a planet in billions its actually in trillions.

and in GW a burrito is an orgy

but back OT if the IoM catches them (imo unlikely) with a sizable force I gotta give it to the IoM. numbers man, numbers.

**KommissarKiln**

I'm imagining storm troopers as models:
Imperial Stormtrooper- Unit of 10 or more, 2 pts per model
Bs Ws S T A W I Ld
1 N/A 3 0 1 1 3 7

Equipment: Flashlights, except they shoot out red light and sometimes smoke

They're terrible shots, never, ever do melee, getting hit period = insta-gib, and what the heck is this "armor" you speak of?

Essentially, the guardsmen would win because even shining their flashlights will be like a hot knife going through butter, and their foes are simply even more inaccurate then they are.