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 Buzzsaw wrote:

I have some other thoughts on the nature of the game itself, but that I'll put in a different post; for now, like their campaign of years ago, this campaign strikes me as being badly planned and leaning far too heavily on the existing fan base in order to sell.

Not just that, but they really havent even given their fans a chance to open their wallets. There's no tempting add-ons really, so your only option is to buy more factions or more of your 2 choices for unit spam. Maybe sell the original artwork or other exclusives to see if mega fans with deep pockets can get the ball rolling.

As it stands, they'll need to add 375 backers on the $160 pledge level just to get to the point where every faction can buy new unit types at $300k...

 Buzzsaw wrote:
...In turn that means that this campaign will rise and fall based on the $160 pledge. This strikes me as a big mistake: the base of the $160 pledge differs from the $99 pledge only by the inclusion of the Titan miniature. An additional $61 on day one gets you one big miniature; do the Titans strike people as something that constitutes a real motivator? It better, because that's the anchor for the pledge level that is intended to do the heavy lifting.

Everyone have a difference of opinion on what is consider a success and what is not, but I do think the communication from Wyrd and their rationale for their campaign (whether you agree or not) have been fairly top-notch. As for the the rise and fall of this campaign will be based on the $160 pledge. I'm not entirely sure what the rise and fall of this campaign actually entails. The product is funded so however many more SGs are reached or not, a product is coming out from this campaign. As of writing this message the backers pledging at the $160 level makes up ~39% of the backers contributing to the campaign. ~31% of the backers are pledging at the two higher levels (300-500).

Also, a Titan isn't the only difference between the $99 and $160 levels. The $160 level gets stretch goal freebies. So at the moment it's also getting a second Commander. If the campaign reaches $450k, $160 pledges get a full 2 commander list. $99 level pledges just get the allegiance box. It'll be what drives upgrades from the people on the $99 level pledge depending on if the pledge levels pick back up after New years.

That said, the parallels to their Through the Breach campaign are fairly striking.

Big start; they have a dedicated fanbase who have been waiting for this for months.

Slog through the middle; once the expectant fans explode their love all over the pledge levels, it waits for the end.

Act 3; the finale; conclusion. Presumably there'll be at least *some* significant movement at the end, when the 48 hour reminder emails go out, and people have to make the call on short notice whether to back or not.

The last one is obviously speculation, but I'd be surprised if it didn't play out essentially like that. Seeing people in the comments asking if they should be worried is somewhat quaint, and makes me a little glad I don't have to worry about talking anyone off a ledge for this one.

Not my circus, not my monkeys. That's their problem now.

That sums up most kick starters though.

Wyrd's have tended to have serious lulls in the middle, and I feel their stretch goals are often pretty lackluster, then they need to rethink them and then they're okay but still not exciting enough to get seriously going again.

I get the feeling that Wyrd views Kickstarter as GoFundMe without the "panhandling" stigma.

 -Loki- wrote:
That sums up most kick starters though.

A lot of them, sure. Most? Nah. I find they usually follow one of three shapes; /, U, or \.

Kingdom Death might well be the last one; huuuuge start, but will there be any 'gas in the tank' for a finale? A lot of campaigns have U style characteristics, but that's becoming less common in my experience. It used to be predicated on having a fanatical following join in early, and a ton of people on the fence jumping in at the end before they miss their chance. I don't see the former as often anymore, and I don't think that's a coincidence. The KS platform has evolved, and Creators are incentivized to have huge starting boosts. Getting funded in 'omg 0.24601 seconds!' makes for good bragging rights, so a lot of campaigns introduce early birds to drive up early participation. Note; not all campaigns do this, I'm aware, just noting that I think there's a cause and effect in play for that shift *in general*. It also helps get attention on the front page ("45,000% funded!") and that can bleed over to Kicktraq and whatnot.

Basically I think the shift in 'shape' of campaigns is partially due to how backers and creators are using (and sometimes abusing) the platform.

But moreso, it was just funny to compare the two and see the exact same slump at the same time frame. At least this one was just 'low funding on those days' instead of actual backtracking.

Ye gods I had to figuratively talk a few people off ledges during the TtB campaign.

Yep, I'm very curious about KD, since it had such extravagantly expensive early bird pledges, so despite I assume a lot of lurkers, I've heard quite a few people saying they're sitting on 2+ EB pledges and deciding at the end, so I'm tempted to stay that one will roughly hold steady in a shuffle at the end.

I've also seen far fewer see a big uptick at the end since I agree, a lot seem to have a frontloaded funding. Wyrd didn't have EB's (IIRC?), but does have a devoted base that functioned similarly, so I'm curious how many are waiting w/o the incentive of jumping in.

Well, I dropped out of TOS.
The value is just not there for me, paying that far in advance and then having yet to see if the game even takes off ...

I have a longer (AKA, more interesting) post coming up, but I just noticed that the kicktraq has (as of about 10:40 AM East Coast time) turned negative for the day.

 Buzzsaw wrote:
...
Hmmm... (Warning! Blatantly Unfair Comparison Ahead)

Spoiler:

Pledge values per day;



Backer number per day;

This is an incredibly poor deal. So thank god i find nothing inspiring in the figures or art, because i dont feel any need whatsoever to pledge. I love the way Wyrd often does female characters, and i would probably have some excitement if i saw a significant unit or force, but females barely seem to exist in this game. The terrible price (for PVC) and useless stretch goals dont help. I bought into Wrath of Kings back in the day. $200 for 220 PVC minis. They still look great those figures.

 Forar wrote:

 -Loki- wrote:
That sums up most kick starters though.

A lot of them, sure. Most? Nah. I find they usually follow one of three shapes; /, U, or \.

I personally like to use J, U or L for the shape of campaigns, owing to the parabolic nature of many of them. I discuss a related phenomenon in my "Mantic Trends" post from some time ago, at the risk of tooting my own horn.

 Forar wrote:
Kingdom Death might well be the last one; huuuuge start, but will there be any 'gas in the tank' for a finale? A lot of campaigns have U style characteristics, but that's becoming less common in my experience. It used to be predicated on having a fanatical following join in early, and a ton of people on the fence jumping in at the end before they miss their chance. I don't see the former as often anymore, and I don't think that's a coincidence. The KS platform has evolved, and Creators are incentivized to have huge starting boosts. Getting funded in 'omg 0.24601 seconds!' makes for good bragging rights, so a lot of campaigns introduce early birds to drive up early participation. Note; not all campaigns do this, I'm aware, just noting that I think there's a cause and effect in play for that shift *in general*. It also helps get attention on the front page ("45,000% funded!") and that can bleed over to Kicktraq and whatnot.

Basically I think the shift in 'shape' of campaigns is partially due to how backers and creators are using (and sometimes abusing) the platform.

But moreso, it was just funny to compare the two and see the exact same slump at the same time frame. At least this one was just 'low funding on those days' instead of actual backtracking.

Ye gods I had to figuratively talk a few people off ledges during the TtB campaign.

The thing is, there are different factors that go into each segment of the campaign. For a L or U paradigm campaign, the critical part of the early rush is Advertising: building a core of people that are invested enough that they are almost indifferent to the deal they are being offered (true fans, one might call them).

What makes this segment distinct from the final 48 hours, and what distinguishes the U and J from the L, is Conversion. That is, over the course of the campaign two things are happening in the interval (the belly of the U and the bottom of the L and J);

First: people are discovering the project and hitting the "Remind Me Later" button.

Second: the deal is changing. Stretch goals are (one hopes) falling, adding to either the value of the base pledges or the possible options.

What interrelates these two things is that the second (the improvement to the deal) serves to convert the first (the RML people) that a given pledge is no longer a "interesting pass", but "a solid buy". Obviously there are other elements at work, most especially selling add-ons to people that have already bought in, but I believe the greatest factor in explosive growth during the last 48 hours is the base pledge becoming "Too Good To Pass Up".

Which, in turn, leads to up-selling more and more options. This is fundamentally similar to the Foot in the Door technique of salesmanship. That is why constant improvement to the base/sweet spot pledge is important: by making that pledge level more and more tempting, more and more of a 'great deal', the seller is then able to tempt them to increase (add-on) to the base pledge.

It's much easier to sell options to someone that is already committed to buy, then to convince someone that is skeptical of buying that they should make a similar total investment.

In the context of The Other Side, I think this is a fundamental mistake with making the $160 pledge level their 'sweet spot'. It's simply too expensive (there is a psychological barrier to going into 3-digits, hence why one sees so many prices that end in 99) for the most casual people, and relies on dubious elements for much of its value.

Love me a Buzzsaw analysis!

Not sure why Wyrd didn't learn from their first foray into KS, or by looking at all the other campaigns since then too - or, maybe they don't want to 'overextend' here, for some reason?

Though proper planning should be able to avoid that...

Without the 'perceived value' being there though, there isn't going to be a "U" or 'Hockey Stick' shape here.

And maybe Wyrd's OK with that?

 Alpharius wrote:
Love me a Buzzsaw analysis!

Not sure why Wyrd didn't learn from their first foray into KS, or by looking at all the other campaigns since then too - or, maybe they don't want to 'overextend' here, for some reason?

Though proper planning should be able to avoid that...

Without the 'perceived value' being there though, there isn't going to be a "U" or 'Hockey Stick' shape here.

And maybe Wyrd's OK with that?

They've made it fairly clear they're avoiding going bing too much value in the kickstarter because they intend on it being a long lived retail product. This isn't a zombicide where you dump everything in the kickstarter then move on to the next kickstarter. They want the people who backed to also still have stuff to buy at their FLGS.

I'm not seeing how a 50% off MSRP at the $160 level lacks 'value' though. Right now with the second commander freebie and the discount already baked into that level those pledges are sitting at about $320 worth of product. If the kickstarter manages to pick back up enough to get more of the free models, that discount just gets better.

Personally, my problem with it isn't the KS prices, but the prices in general, and the high threshold. I forget if I mentioned it here, but the expansion/non-KS prices are high enough that even if I thought the prices were awesome, adding more becomes prohibitive, so I don't want to invest in a game I won't be able to keep up with. And then there's the 2nd part, which is that the good price point is pretty high, so it is an investment, esp. when the options are gamble that someone else in the area plays, or get 2 starters.

 greywulf wrote:
I love the way Wyrd often does female characters, and i would probably have some excitement if i saw a significant unit or force, but females barely seem to exist in this game

Cult of the Burning Man have more squads with female representation, while the King's Empire squads are mostly male. I am guessing this was a decision based on background of the allegiances. King's Empire would be the most "normal" or grounded in social norms...armies are mostly composed of men. The Cult is more radical and, I guess, more accepting to include women in their rank and file of their armies.

While the mass of troops are of mostly the male gender, the commanders and unique troops are more diverse. Troops of the King's Empire is mostly made up of men, but 2 of the 3 commander choices are women.

 -Loki- wrote:

 Alpharius wrote:
Love me a Buzzsaw analysis!

Not sure why Wyrd didn't learn from their first foray into KS, or by looking at all the other campaigns since then too - or, maybe they don't want to 'overextend' here, for some reason?

Though proper planning should be able to avoid that...

Without the 'perceived value' being there though, there isn't going to be a "U" or 'Hockey Stick' shape here.

And maybe Wyrd's OK with that?

They've made it fairly clear they're avoiding going bing too much value in the kickstarter because they intend on it being a long lived retail product. This isn't a zombicide where you dump everything in the kickstarter then move on to the next kickstarter. They want the people who backed to also still have stuff to buy at their FLGS.

On the other hand, if I was a game store, and saw this was all they could muster, I'm not sure how excited I'd be to carry the line. Also I'm pretty sure Zombicide is carried in game stores...

I'm not seeing how a 50% off MSRP at the $160 level lacks 'value' though. Right now with the second commander freebie and the discount already baked into that level those pledges are sitting at about $320 worth of product. If the kickstarter manages to pick back up enough to get more of the free models, that discount just gets better.

It's because people don't value the figures at the suggested MSRP. I like Wyrd, but come on...$20 for a single PVC commander?! That's preassembled, making cleaning the doubtless ghastly mold lines even more of a pain. Or $45 for the frenzy?

 spiralingcadaver wrote:
Personally, my problem with it isn't the KS prices, but the prices in general, and the high threshold. I forget if I mentioned it here, but the expansion/non-KS prices are high enough that even if I thought the prices were awesome, adding more becomes prohibitive, so I don't want to invest in a game I won't be able to keep up with. And then there's the 2nd part, which is that the good price point is pretty high, so it is an investment, esp. when the options are gamble that someone else in the area plays, or get 2 starters.

I totally get that, but it appears that, like Malifaux, you're not going to be buying these squads en masse. You're likely not going to go out and buy 3 boxes of Dragoons when one box is almost half of what a Commander can take. And even if you did want 3 boxes of Dragoons, you're going for a particular playstyle and likely aren't going to go for other units.

I'm willing to buy in at the KS level and see what happens. Worst comes to worst I've got some cool aquatic monsters to paint (I love me some aquatic monsters) and stick in my display cabinet.

 Bossk_Hogg wrote:
On the other hand, if I was a game store, and saw this was all they could muster, I'm not sure how excited I'd be to carry the line. Also I'm pretty sure Zombicide is carried in game stores...

They didn't muster much for Through the Breach, but it's constantly selling at one of my FLGS's. My other FLGS is jumping in with the retail plegde because he sells bucketloads of Malifaux. He just can't keep it on the shelf.

Zombiecide languishes. The boxes sit there for months without moving, and tend to only shift near Christmas. He sells far more Imperial Assault and other board games, so it's not like there's not a scene there for the product.

 Bossk_Hogg wrote:
It's because people don't value the figures at the suggested MSRP. I like Wyrd, but come on...$20 for a single PVC commander?! That's preassembled, making cleaning the doubtless ghastly mold lines even more of a pain. Or $45 for the frenzy?

That's fair enough. Though I've got some of their current PVC offerings and the mold lines aren't nearly as bad as you're making out. The Frenzy is $35, actually, for 3 50mm based models.

 -Loki- wrote:

 Alpharius wrote:
Love me a Buzzsaw analysis!

Not sure why Wyrd didn't learn from their first foray into KS, or by looking at all the other campaigns since then too - or, maybe they don't want to 'overextend' here, for some reason?

Though proper planning should be able to avoid that...

Without the 'perceived value' being there though, there isn't going to be a "U" or 'Hockey Stick' shape here.

And maybe Wyrd's OK with that?

They've made it fairly clear they're avoiding going bing too much value in the kickstarter because they intend on it being a long lived retail product. This isn't a zombicide where you dump everything in the kickstarter then move on to the next kickstarter. They want the people who backed to also still have stuff to buy at their FLGS.

I'm not seeing how a 50% off MSRP at the $160 level lacks 'value' though. Right now with the second commander freebie and the discount already baked into that level those pledges are sitting at about $320 worth of product. If the kickstarter manages to pick back up enough to get more of the free models, that discount just gets better.

 spiralingcadaver wrote:
Personally, my problem with it isn't the KS prices, but the prices in general, and the high threshold. I forget if I mentioned it here, but the expansion/non-KS prices are high enough that even if I thought the prices were awesome, adding more becomes prohibitive, so I don't want to invest in a game I won't be able to keep up with. And then there's the 2nd part, which is that the good price point is pretty high, so it is an investment, esp. when the options are gamble that someone else in the area plays, or get 2 starters.

The problem with using a discount of MSRP as an indication of value is that the MSRP is... well, it doesn't actually exist. That is, if discount from retail were enough, they could make the value unbeatable by simply increasing the MSRP.

Unfortunately, as Spiral points out, most of us have some general idea of the value of similar goods, disconnected from this specific product line.

So, for example, consider that the various Titan models are being offered for $75 as an add-on during this campaign, with an MSRP of $90. The question is not whether the campaign price is sufficiently discounted, but is a Titan model a good value at price X?

Clearly Wyrd sees their Titans as the flagship models of this campaign, the following image ("Alpha Crawler versus King's Hand") is the first product image on the campaign page;


Now, these seem to be quite nice models, but $90 nice? Let's take a momemnt to ask how do they stack up against some offerings on the market already;

The first things I thought of were the newer Battle Engine models from Privateer Press, the best example being the Transfinite Emergence Projector & Permutation Servitors,

The TEP has an MSRP of $69.99, and can regularly be found at closer to $60, give or take a few dollars (GameNerdz is offering it for $63 and free shipping, for example). I thought of the TEP because it is (to the best of my knowledge) a HIPS kit (one of the first and best for PP). Others in this category include the Meat Thresher (MSRP of $69.99) and... actually, are these the extent of PP's plastics? Sigh...


But even the older, Resin and white metal Battle Engines compare favorably on price; the Storm Strider, for example, has an MSRP of $84.99 and about $76 from the aforementioned GameNerds. Or the Sacral vault (MSRP of $109.99),


I picked these mostly out of a lack of familiarity with other companies' offerings, I'm sure folks more up to date with GW or CB (etc, etc) can propose alternative comparisons. A Dreamforge Leviathan, for example, lists at $125 but are currently available for $70.

By the way, while I was doing this I realized something: there is no scale in any of the things on the campaign I have found yet. Am I simply missing it, or is there really nothing on the front page of the campaign establishing the size of these models?

Assuming that the Titans are roughly on the same scale of the things I mention above (120mm base for the battle engines), can we really say that they are equivalent products to what is available on the market? $90 is a steep price for a model, especially for one of PVC and that cannot be reposed.

Am I incorrect? The more I think about it, the less certain I am about the size of the Titans and what constitutes a valid comparison.



Postscript: Jebus, the campaign has closed the day having dropped by over $1250 for the day!

Malifaux news - Gaining Grounds 2017 is up.

General clean-up as errors were noticed
The Carver is now a legal Killjoy proxy
Round time limits have been increased by 15 minutes (to 2 hours)
Calling Time rules have been adjusted. Organizers are encouraged to give players plenty of warning before Calling Time.
The Ringer rules have been updated, but work essentially the same as has been done
The 2017 Rotation is (obviously) new
The Schemes are updated. This includes:
Schemes moving location
Schemes being removed
Schemes being added

I like the Carver being a legal Killjoy proxy. I hope they do a proxy card for that.

 -Loki- wrote:
I like the Carver being a legal Killjoy proxy. I hope they do a proxy card for that.

Same

Cheers for the link, look forward to getting stuck into a fresh year of 'Faux strats/schemes

- Salvage

Heh, I've been using the carver as KJ since I got the model...

I'm going to start using "KJ" now for sure I absolutely love the Carver model

There is a live demo of the The Other Side game being played through Vassal by playtesters. I believe Aaron, the game designer, will be on chat to answer questions related to gameplay.

https://www.twitch.tv/beforewebegin


Edit: Youtube link of the archived stream - 2 commander based game - King's Empire vs Gibbering Horde - https://youtu.be/TSMedEcqIyE


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Buzzsaw wrote:

I picked these mostly out of a lack of familiarity with other companies' offerings, I'm sure folks more up to date with GW or CB (etc, etc) can propose alternative comparisons. A Dreamforge Leviathan, for example, lists at $125 but are currently available for $70.

By the way, while I was doing this I realized something: there is no scale in any of the things on the campaign I have found yet. Am I simply missing it, or is there really nothing on the front page of the campaign establishing the size of these models?

Assuming that the Titans are roughly on the same scale of the things I mention above (120mm base for the battle engines), can we really say that they are equivalent products to what is available on the market? $90 is a steep price for a model, especially for one of PVC and that cannot be reposed.

Am I incorrect? The more I think about it, the less certain I am about the size of the Titans and what constitutes a valid comparison.

It was mentioned in a KS update that one of the titans measured in The Other Side was slightly less than 6" tall. https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1334239018/the-other-side-9/posts/1765065
I think in this thread on Dakka a comparison pic was posted.

I am not familiar with PP games, but comparisons of Titans in the Other Side were usually made to Warmahordes Colossals/Gargantuans. Which if I look at the price range of those unit types (also on 120mm), they range from $105-135 (non-discount and leaning towards 135 more than to 105). It would be a better representation of price comparison to include Colossals/Gargantuans than to just the Battle Engines, in my opinion.

As for pricing, ALL Tabletop Miniature Games are pretty pricey for me . The price structure Wyrd has used for The Other Side, seems to scale similarly with Malifaux prcing (less per troop models, more per commander models so far).

Watching the youtube of the livestream. Looks very streamlined and fast. Mechanics are similar to Malifaux but there's a lot less going on. Flip, add values, cheat or not, if the attacker wins flip for damage. However there's a 'margin' where your flip plus damage needs to beat the enemy armour, and every margin extra 5 it beats their armour by it does one more wound, which makes it easier to clear a whole fireteam with high damage.

Seems like no faction specific effects, just Shaken, Inspired, Pinned, Glory and Reinforce for everyone. That makes it a lot easier keeping track of what everything does. Even skills are communal, for example there's a skill that stops a Commander passing the damage off to a nearby Fireteam which is the same for everyone that has it. Fr a game with so many units and models and rules, that really helps cut down on flipping through books.

Reinforce seems to be how Gibbering Hordes feels like a Horde compared to other factions. They seem to have more ways to do it, like Karkinoi dropping an Egg Clutch and the Asset taken on the Stormsiren. I like this a lot, since it means you're not buying and painting vastly more models than other people.

There is another demo of the game using Vassal streaming live again. If you might have questions about the gameplay might be a good place to get some of the addressed (I will edit this post if they archived this into Youtube again).

https://www.twitch.tv/beforewebegin

Edit: Youtube Link - https://youtu.be/CbzouuQITbM Cult vs Abyssinnia

Unfortunately I'm at work, I'll watch the youtube demo.

Which forces are they demoing this time?

Cult and Abyssinia

Anyone else confused how this is in Kicktraq's "Top 10" given the week of flat/negative growth?