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2013/11/05 19:31:06
Subject: Pure CSM FMC Spam - Dual FOC, can it work?
I'd love to! Trouble is - I can't! To take 2 thirster I'd need to make daemons my primary!
Just to clarify, in a Dual FOC, you also get a second Allied detachment. That means a possible second Bloodthirster without making Daemons your Primary, but not absolutely necessary. I'm just going over options here. Kharn is absolutely one of the best HQs to come storming out of Land Raider ever, so no argument there. Or anywhere else in your list for that matter. I think you have a list that can hold up well enough. Let us know how it goes!
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/11/05 19:34:24
2013/11/05 19:57:41
Subject: Pure CSM FMC Spam - Dual FOC, can it work?
I know I can take a dual FOC allied detachment, but the issue is the need for 4 troops in the primary, and 2 troops in the secondary. As you can tell from the list, it's not meant to be ridiculously competitive - but a lot of fun. The idea is that I'm not that bothered about objectives, if I can stop the opponent from holding any. My Khorne marked marines will sit on a home objective. My bloodletters will hopefully deep strike somewhere near another objective, and kharn will come screaming out of the raider with his bezerkers, and hopefully with 2 fiends, 2 DP and a BT along side him!
Automatically Appended Next Post: I'm trying to work out how to fit a porta-thing in to create some free troop choices!
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/11/05 19:58:35
You sought to cower behind your walls, weakling? Instead, by the will of Khorne, you shall die behind them
2013/11/05 20:28:07
Subject: Pure CSM FMC Spam - Dual FOC, can it work?
The most recent list, and I was just clarifying for anyone who happened to be reading and unaware of that part of the Dual FOC rules. I understand your budget, especially not running Cultists (not pointing this out as a flaw, just an assessment of the list requirements on your part). While taking Cultists could shave a bunch of points, they aren't for everyone. Just like Heldrakes and Oblits they have a role, but are not an auto include. I'm just looking at your list from the perspective of "How much Khornate greatness can we shove in this list?".
2013/11/05 20:46:46
Subject: Pure CSM FMC Spam - Dual FOC, can it work?
Haha! Thanks dude. The need to force Helldrakes on people irritates me. They are good, but not a 'must include'. I'm not a massive fan of running normal CSM with boltguns, but I need some kind of back field objective holders wwhilst everyone else runs of and gets all choppy! It doesn't quite fit my fluff, but IF I take them as a CC unit, then I have no delivery system for them! Land raiders are expensive! But I guess I need some restraint!
You sought to cower behind your walls, weakling? Instead, by the will of Khorne, you shall die behind them
2013/11/06 00:02:00
Subject: Pure CSM FMC Spam - Dual FOC, can it work?
I really think the second list heeding the sugestion to drop all chain axes and plasma pistols, and fiends is the strongest using 2 land raiders for 2 solid squads of khorne beserkers and cultists in reserve in addition to deepstriking blood letters.
I would only use 1 csmdp with bm, and 1 bloodthirster with or without portaglyph.
Otherwise play chaos daemon solely. Pick a blood thirster and a hq that unlocks dp as heavy support. Then you can have 4 fmc legit and as many daemons.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2013/11/06 00:06:56
2013/11/06 11:34:42
Subject: Pure CSM FMC Spam - Dual FOC, can it work?
Can't take 4 bezerkers as they aren't troops choices! They're only troops of kharn is a HQ in a primary detachment. So as allies they remain elites. I just can't make daemons my primary, and fit in everything I want from the CSM dex. I simply don't have the points!
You sought to cower behind your walls, weakling? Instead, by the will of Khorne, you shall die behind them
2013/11/06 17:27:18
Subject: Pure CSM FMC Spam - Dual FOC, can it work?
Khaine's Wrath wrote: Can't take 4 bezerkers as they aren't troops choices! They're only troops of kharn is a HQ in a primary detachment. So as allies they remain elites. I just can't make daemons my primary, and fit in everything I want from the CSM dex. I simply don't have the points!
Ah, sorry. I pay little attention to detail sometimes.
2013/11/06 17:33:00
Subject: Pure CSM FMC Spam - Dual FOC, can it work?
Heavy Support: Maulerfiend (1#, 125 pts)
1 Maulerfiend
HQ: Daemon Prince (1#, 265 pts)
1 Daemon Prince + Power Armour + Wings + Daemon of Khorne
1 The Black Mace
HQ: Daemon Prince (1#, 255 pts)
1 Daemon Prince + Power Armour + Wings + Daemon of Khorne
1 Axe of Blind Fury
The HQ's sit above their relevant squads, and those squads sit above their transports. One plain CSM unit for sitting back and objective holding. Cultists do the same, or act as a meat shield.
You sought to cower behind your walls, weakling? Instead, by the will of Khorne, you shall die behind them
2013/11/07 09:03:02
Subject: Re:Pure CSM FMC Spam - Dual FOC, can it work?
Or better yet use the black legion supplement and give one of your prince the skull for EW. Just about anything is better than the murder sword
other than that the list is playable.
Be weary of tau hammerheads and fusion blasters. as well as eldar brightlances, they'll crap your raiders and then you are stuck with just the princes which can be grounded easily
Use a lot of cover to block line of sight
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Khaine's Wrath wrote: I am a little swayed by dual LR, Not too sure on Daemon allies still, let me know what you think of this list...
2000 Pts - Codex: Chaos Space Marines Roster
Total Roster Cost: 2000
HQ: Kharn the Betrayer (1#, 160 pts)
1 Kharn the Betrayer
Heavy Support: Maulerfiend (1#, 125 pts)
1 Maulerfiend
HQ: Daemon Prince (1#, 265 pts)
1 Daemon Prince + Power Armour + Wings + Daemon of Khorne
1 The Black Mace
HQ: Daemon Prince (1#, 255 pts)
1 Daemon Prince + Power Armour + Wings + Daemon of Khorne
1 Axe of Blind Fury
The HQ's sit above their relevant squads, and those squads sit above their transports. One plain CSM unit for sitting back and objective holding. Cultists do the same, or act as a meat shield.
This looks weaker than your original idea to me
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/11/07 09:06:34
I still think you had a solid list with list 1 without the daemons allies. If anything you can drop the maulerfiend on list 1 and add more cultists to hold objectives while everything else charges forward Khorne style.
I like the khorne theme (i'm a khorne fanboy myself) i rate that list 7 out of 10 simply because i think heldrakes are needed to deal with certain things but still very playable.
List #2 you basically switched for a bloodthirster but i think the bloodletters wont be as useful or as reliable as the cultists. You need to get exalted reward on the prince so you can spawn the portal.
The bloodthirster is great and all but the list suffers from troop shortage without the exalted reward.
6 out of 10.
List #3 - made things worst by adding in csm whom are less efficient than anythign else you had previously.
Overall i think you just took a dive in list efficiency with this list. I'd say this one is 3 out of 10.
More mauler fiends don't make up for the loss of the extra raider and you still have a serious lack of troops as with list #2.
List #4
Here you threw in fabius bile to upgrade the csm, so you are just breaking the theme as he is technically slaanesh and you should hate his guts.
Also he's just not that useful neither are enhanced warriors unless you are playing for a theme i dont think he has a place on your list. This one is 2 out of 10.
Suggestion: Go with list #1 you had a very solid start there, but use the black legion supplement rules and run them as allies instead of the daemons. Give one of your prince the EW item. and toss in the cultists with this black legion allies faction removing the mauler fiend which is likely to be shot to pieces (all anti tank weapons that cant hurt the raiders WILL go at the maulerfiend)
Here's what i think your list should look like to be improved to a 8 out of 10
1960 Pts - Codex: Chaos Space Marines Roster
Chaos Space marines
HQ:
1 Kharn the Betrayer, 160 pts
1 Daemon Prince, 265 pts (Power Armour; Wings; Daemon of Khorne)
1 The Black Mace
1 Daemon Prince, 250 pts (Power Armour; Wings; Daemon of Khorne)
1 Burning Brand of Skalathrax
Akaiyou wrote: Just peeped the other 2 lists inbetween List #2 you basically switched for a bloodthirster but i think the bloodletters wont be as useful or as reliable as the cultists. You need to get exalted reward on the prince so you can spawn the portal. The bloodthirster is great and all but the list suffers from troop shortage without the exalted reward.
Here you threw in fabius bile to upgrade the csm, so you are just breaking the theme as he is technically slaanesh and you should hate his guts. Also he's just not that useful neither are enhanced warriors unless you are playing for a theme i dont think he has a place on your list. This one is 2 out of 10.
Codex: Chaos Space Marines Roster
Chaos Space marines
HQ: 1 Kharn the Betrayer, 160 pts
1 Daemon Prince, 265 pts (Power Armour; Wings; Daemon of Khorne) 1 The Black Mace
1 Daemon Prince, 250 pts (Power Armour; Wings; Daemon of Khorne) 1 Burning Brand of Skalathrax
Just a couple of thoughts Bloodletters are normally useful as troops - deep striking means you can use them for objective grabbing, and having power weapons as standard is all good. For comedy stick them on an aegis...BS5 Bloodletters . I've run the 'thirster in my lists before - with 2 units of csm and some bloodletters - it got along fine. Fluffwise, I agree - Fabius is slaanesh. His making two squads fearless and one of them ST5 isn't to be sniffed at. That has on occasion given me gyp in games. I think Fabius is a bit fragile though - one solid st8 hit and he goes down...
I like the re-done list - its like playing hide the cultists. IMO, the best place to hide them is in reserve if you can - other wise you run the risk of them getting shot off the board. As you're taking Landraiders, any squad with a weapon that can't hurt them or see a DP will shoot the cultists. Would you start the DP's on the board on foot or fly them on from reserve on turn 2+?
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/11/07 10:21:39
Its because ordinance is still a word.
However, firing ordinance at someone isn't nearly as threatening as firing ordnance at someone.
Ordinance is a local law, or bill, or other form of legislation.
Ordnance is high caliber explosives.
No 'I' in ordnance.
Don't drown the enemy in legislation, drown them in explosives.
2013/11/07 10:19:02
Subject: Pure CSM FMC Spam - Dual FOC, can it work?
OK, I'll have a go myself. If I am honest i am reluctant to remove the fiend as I own him already - was my first new CSM model! I also don't have the BL supplement, and can't really afford it at the moment, so I don't have the rules. And my army builder tends to not update until the hardback is released. Ill Have a go though, and throw it your way.
Automatically Appended Next Post: And I'd start the DP's on the table - as long as I have the cover to block LOS..
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/11/07 10:20:36
You sought to cower behind your walls, weakling? Instead, by the will of Khorne, you shall die behind them
2013/11/07 10:21:01
Subject: Pure CSM FMC Spam - Dual FOC, can it work?
Its because ordinance is still a word.
However, firing ordinance at someone isn't nearly as threatening as firing ordnance at someone.
Ordinance is a local law, or bill, or other form of legislation.
Ordnance is high caliber explosives.
No 'I' in ordnance.
Don't drown the enemy in legislation, drown them in explosives.
2013/11/07 10:26:52
Subject: Pure CSM FMC Spam - Dual FOC, can it work?
Khaine's Wrath wrote: OK, I'll have a go myself. If I am honest i am reluctant to remove the fiend as I own him already - was my first new CSM model! I also don't have the BL supplement, and can't really afford it at the moment, so I don't have the rules. And my army builder tends to not update until the hardback is released. Ill Have a go though, and throw it your way.
Automatically Appended Next Post: And I'd start the DP's on the table - as long as I have the cover to block LOS..
Well for this specific list that i recommended you don't need to know much about the black legion supplement. It's almost identical to the csm book.
only thing you need to know is that you are using the chaos artefact : The Skull of Ker'ngar - 40 pts
It grants eternal warrior and adamantium will. Nothing complicated at all. Everything else follows all csm book rules.
Heavy Support: Chaos Land Raider (1#, 235 pts)
1 Chaos Land Raider + Dirge Caster
Heavy Support: Chaos Land Raider (1#, 235 pts)
1 Chaos Land Raider + Dirge Caster
Heavy Support: Maulerfiend (1#, 125 pts)
1 Maulerfiend
Black Legion Allies:
HQ: Daemon Prince (1#, 300 pts)
1 Daemon Prince + Power Armour + Wings + Daemon of Khorne
1 The Skull of Ker'ngar
1 The Spineshiver Blade
Troops: Chosen (5#, 205 pts)
4 Chosen + Mark of Khorne + Veterans of the Long War + Icon of Vengeance + Plasma gun x4
1 Chosen Champion + Mark of Khorne + Combi-Plasmagun + Veterans of the Long War
Heavy Support: Maulerfiend (1#, 125 pts)
1 Maulerfiend
The Chosen are there as my backfield objective holders....The rest is for charging forward, all together at the same speed!
You sought to cower behind your walls, weakling? Instead, by the will of Khorne, you shall die behind them
2013/11/07 13:09:20
Subject: Pure CSM FMC Spam - Dual FOC, can it work?
If you find yourself having difficulty winning on troops you could take a portaglyph on the daemon prince / bloodthirster. Who is going to shoot at the portal turns 1-2 when there are 3 FMC sloaring up the pitch.
2013/11/07 17:41:43
Subject: Pure CSM FMC Spam - Dual FOC, can it work?
Akaiyou wrote: Spineshiver blade does nothing for your prince, drop it. And you got the pts cost wrong it's 30 pts not 40.
I find this to be very false, besides the points cost that is. Its the cheapest daemon weapon that you can get and increases the DP's initiative by 1. If he want's to go smashy smashy he wants more attacks and the spineshiver blade certainly does the job.
Also khaine, all 5 models in a unit of 5 chosen can have PG if you did not know.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/11/07 17:43:39
"Oh hello there Eldar and fellow brethren Space Marines, take a seat and let me play you the music of my people"- Band Slaanesh, the Rock and Roll of 40k
2013/11/07 18:08:22
Subject: Pure CSM FMC Spam - Dual FOC, can it work?
Akaiyou wrote: Spineshiver blade does nothing for your prince, drop it. And you got the pts cost wrong it's 30 pts not 40.
I find this to be very false, besides the points cost that is. Its the cheapest daemon weapon that you can get and increases the DP's initiative by 1. If he want's to go smashy smashy he wants more attacks and the spineshiver blade certainly does the job.
Also khaine, all 5 models in a unit of 5 chosen can have PG if you did not know.
I didn't! I was considering swapping to 5 melta guns - which would you choose?
As for the spineshiver - I took it for the D6 attacks extra! 5 standard + 1 for charging +D6 for daemon weapon at St7 because of furious charge at AP2 due to him bein a MC. Think that's 30 points well spent!
You sought to cower behind your walls, weakling? Instead, by the will of Khorne, you shall die behind them
2013/11/07 18:30:42
Subject: Pure CSM FMC Spam - Dual FOC, can it work?
I completely agree, the more attack's the better. They are the DP's best friend. As for chosen, do PG all the way. If they're your back field objective holders you get so much more range, and if somebody gets close that just means an extra shot
"Oh hello there Eldar and fellow brethren Space Marines, take a seat and let me play you the music of my people"- Band Slaanesh, the Rock and Roll of 40k
2013/11/07 18:38:07
Subject: Pure CSM FMC Spam - Dual FOC, can it work?
Well if it isn't an axe or a sword then it isn't very khornate lol. But its smart to have some ranged weapons
"Oh hello there Eldar and fellow brethren Space Marines, take a seat and let me play you the music of my people"- Band Slaanesh, the Rock and Roll of 40k
2013/11/07 18:43:03
Subject: Pure CSM FMC Spam - Dual FOC, can it work?
Well, I was hoping to get round the fluff as they are black legion....but I lacked a decent objective holder I'm my deployment zone with some decent weapons, so as I was taking an allied DP, I needed a troops choice, and chosen sort of act as havocs in a troops slot.....if that makes sense?
You sought to cower behind your walls, weakling? Instead, by the will of Khorne, you shall die behind them
2013/11/07 18:44:54
Subject: Pure CSM FMC Spam - Dual FOC, can it work?
Oh I understand, I'm just saying that PG would be more points effective (if that is ever the case with Chosen). If you want to run melta, go for it
"Oh hello there Eldar and fellow brethren Space Marines, take a seat and let me play you the music of my people"- Band Slaanesh, the Rock and Roll of 40k
2013/11/07 18:46:56
Subject: Pure CSM FMC Spam - Dual FOC, can it work?
You sought to cower behind your walls, weakling? Instead, by the will of Khorne, you shall die behind them 
