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Hey guys!! I got a land raider off my friend for my birthday, and i named it "Tim the Land Raider" *yay!* I was thinking of writing a mech list of marines ( which has long been something i wish to get around to ) But the question remains, which land raider is deemed most useful, for any task that is. I really like the sound of the land raider Crusader though, all that dakka!
Basically i intend to use it for firepower and transport for something along the lines of assault terminators?

In Short - Which land raider variant do you think is "Best"? - Thanks for any help!!

~Ashley

The Spartan Assault Tank certainly deserves mention. 315 points isn't that much more than the standard variants, but it gets you 5 hull points, extra armour, melta-immunity, and twice the firepower of the standard variant.

...the 25 model transport capacity is just icing on the cake.

If we are only considering the standard 3 landraiders (Godhammer, redeemer, crusader) then I would have to go with the crusader.

The only real reason to take the landraider is for an armoured assault boat, you can get more firepower for your points from other options. Because of this the godhammer option is out. 2 TL-lascannons and a HB for 250 points? No thanks. Its low transport cap and lack of assault launchers is the final nail in the coffin.

The redeemer seems to be a decent choice on paper, ap3 templates wonderful things vs MEQ. However in practice those templates are hard to get onto a target (due to the lack of torrent, not being a fast vehicle & the massive hull of the landraider preventing both templates from hitting). Also having template weapons really doesn't synergize well with using the raider as an assault vehicle, as when you disembark for a charge, you will be blocking your own flamers. If the enemy has a gunline, then it will normally be turn 3 before you can even shoot them. (PS: melta guns like it if your landraider has to be within 6 inches to shoot)

The crusader seems the least confused in its battlefield role, and also has the best transport capacity. It can be used as an assault vehicle very efficiently, can put firepower out from a longer range, its weapons will not be blocked by disembarking troops and it is pretty decent by itself at close to mid range vs infantry.

Godhammer, everything else marines can take, they can use to deal with infantry, which means that taking the redeemer and crusader is superfluous, although since your HQ has to go somewhere, you'll probably be taking at least one crusader anyway.

Today, I would go with the crusader or the base land raider (with dual LC)
The base (mars pattern) land raider is better at long range engagement. Its for counter-assault troops.

Since you probably got the crusader/redeemer kit for your bday i would suggest the crusader

I like all of them in different roles. The Godhammer is perhaps less useful as being a transport and firing LC is quite conflicting, as one necessitates closing with a target and the other is better if standing back and shooting. As mentioned above, it does work as a counter-assault unit, adding 6" to the charge range of a unit of termies or a command/VV squad.

The Crusader is awesome for softening up targets before an assault, and with all the weapons being TL it can move pretty fast and still get few hits down (moving 12" you can still fire the AC as full BS and you get the HB snap-firing, which isn't bad considering the mobility) It can work really well if you're running a purely assault unit inside like TH/SS termies then you can compensate for their lack of shooting. Alternatively, you can combine it with a maxed unit of Sternguard for a massively shooty deathstar.

I generally like the Redeemer with BA, as the DS ability means you can get the flamers in range pretty fast (yeah, I DS raiders), and with POTMS you can hit a unit on each side (and possibly hit one with the AC as well).

Overall, I think Crusaders are probably the best, but all of them are useful. I'd suggest that if you go for the Crusader or Redeemer you take a MM on it, as having some decent AT on an otherwise Anti-horde vehicle can be a nasty shock for the opponent.

If you have to take a LR (which you shouldn't) The redeemer is probably your best bet. Unless you include forgeworld, then you want an Achilles, which is a LR as it should be. However pound for pound RL are not cost effective, and really aren't worth taking with a few exceptions.

In this edition the crusader lost all of its "upper hand".

Last 2 editions it was the only land raider I would take; now it is my least likely land raider to see the field outside of a grey knights list(due to Psybolt ammo).

The redeemer and the godhammer, on the other hand, both received significant boosts with the snapfire rules(they can at least shoot all their weapons now, and have twin linked weapons that you would want to snapfire).

The godhammer can Potms its Heavy bolter at a non-vehicle target and normally fire + snapfire both its lascannons at armour.

The Redeemer can fire both of its flamers(one with Potms), possibly at 2 different units, and then snap fire its t-l Asscann.

Spartan.
I say Godhammer variant. Because GW hates Chaos, and that's the only one we get unless we go the Forgeworld route. So take the Godhammer variant, and share our pain.

Best Raider is the magnetised Raider

Failing that, in today's meta, crusader seems the best, as mentioned above

Frankly, Land Raider have been becoming increasingly crappy over the last 10 years, and 6th edition was the final nail in the coffin IMO. Melta, lances, Smash on MC's, entropic strike, and "glance death" have all massively undermined it's survivability. Frankly, Land Raiders should be 175-200 points, not 250+ in today's meta.

Land Raider "God Hammer" / Phobos / Classic - Why? That's all I can ask. You are looking at 260 points for 2 TL lascannons, a Heavy Bolter and a multi-melta. For 20 points more, you can get 2 Triple lascannon predators, which laugh at your Land Raider's fire power. This variant has an identity crisis between being an assault transport and gun platform. It's a little bit of everything loadout, which means it's good at exactly nothing,

Land Raider Redeemer - Highest potential damage, lowest average damage. You want to drive into that sweet spot and roast some MeQ....but it NEVER happens. No MeQ army is letting you get this thing close enough to get more than 1 shot off, ever, as every melta and lascannon will make sure those inferno cannons DO NOT FIRE. An immob'ed result screws this thing over so SO hard as well.

Land Raider Crusader - The best IMO, as if you are taking a Land Raider, you are taking an extensive transport first, and a gun platform second. This allows for the maximum amount of transported boys and if you get immob'ed you can at least still contribute something. It's weapon loadout is somewhat redundant with Thunderfire cannons and bolters everywhere covering anti-infantry, but at least they will get to fire often.

You have to remember why you are taking a Land Raider in the first place. It's not to get more guns (Thunderfire and/or triple las preds laugh it all variant's firepower) it's to get a beefy squad into melee, anything beyond that is gravy.

The best Landraider is a magnetized one where you can swap out the weapons to build any variant.

I agree about the Spartan. That, along with drop pods, are one of those things we CSM players really wish we had.

Spartan or Helios

What about a redeemer in a Ravenguard army? If bought as a dedicated transport, it gets the scout move. Would that put it close enough to use flamestorm cannons before turn 3?

 Flavius Infernus wrote:
What about a redeemer in a Ravenguard army? If bought as a dedicated transport, it gets the scout move. Would that put it close enough to use flamestorm cannons before turn 3?

With RG, you deploy 12", you get the scout 12", and then you go with a 12" movement (you can still POTMS the AC) which means you should be able to line up some shots (and a charge with what's inside) by turn 2. Raven guard are actually surprisingly fast as an army, basically being a turn ahead of you from the start. So yeah, a LRR with RG would work (I think RG DT get scout, if not then it works with Khan and WS). The thing to bear in mind with the LRR is that, as you can't Snap-fire the Flamestorms, and can POTMS the AC, then you can move 12" a turn without losing any firepower beyond 8". This is a problem with the other variants, who have to sacrifice their shooting to move, or movement to shoot at full effect. The LRR can go all-out on the movement until it is in range to fire the Flamestorms (possibly snap-fire the AC if you can get 2 targets with the Flamestorms) and also deliver an assault unit.

The ability to maul 3 targets at close range (2 in shooting and one in assault) makes a terminator or veteran unit in a Redeemer a great linebreaker, and forces the opponent to deal with it. This should take the heat of your more fragile rhinos, and even other land raiders.

ravenguard dont get to utilize the scout move on LR's unless you put an honor guard or command squad in it.

Honor guard are decently cheap now though so thats somthing to look at.


White scars however, can scout a landraider as long as they have khan in the army.

I like the classic. It is a jack-of-all trades, master of none tank. Or, from a different POV, a TAC flexible unit that can contribute something, no matter the situation.

If you want a battlefield taxi to ram some ugly CC into your foe, take the LRC. If you like to burn things, the LRR. But as a general use tank, the phobos LR with the Godhammers is where it is at.

Sure, you can get more LC shots downrange with preds, but how are they at delivering assault troops? Or taking missiles to the flanks or krack grenades on the hull? You can get troops downfield with a rhino, but they are made of paper and not assault vehicles. Ravens are assault, but need to start in reserves and have their own issues. The classic LR might be meh at all the jobs, but it does them -all-.

I have plenty of bolters in my army. The hurricanes on the LRC never really appealed to me. I do like the TLAsC though. My problem is that it only has a 24" shooting range. That's fine for when you plan on racing forward, but bad if you want to hang back as a countercharge reserve.

That's why I like the TLLCs. Spend a turn sitting back and shooting things. You have the range, and few things enjoy getting lascannoned. See where the battle is going, roll over there and dump out some assault troops. Shooting stuff wherever you feel like on the table while you do so.

The LRR is a little too focused. It's threat range is basically at the foot of it's assault ramp. Now if you are right next to it, you are in for a world of hurt. But outside of that you can basically ignore it. If I'm paying ~250 for a MBT, I want some force projection.

Eihnlazer wrote:
ravenguard dont get to utilize the scout move on LR's unless you put an honor guard or command squad in it.

Wouldn't it also work with Vanguard without Jump Packs, and therefore not 'bulky'? I realise that RG don't really want to give up JP in most situations, but getting a good sized squad of Vanguard in CC by turn 2 could be quite useful, and is not other wise possible without Shrike tricks (ultimately more dangerous to the vets than a LR would be).

I'm beginning to think that VV out of a raider are better than termies, simply because with this tactic, you need to smoke the unit in 2 rounds if possible, to then head for a new target in your next turn, and termies, while lethal to vehicles and some elite infantry, are outclassed by VV against larger units. The inabiity to perform a Sweeping Advance really hurts them here. Also, Vanguard's ability to multicharge could be better out of a LR, as they can take out a good section of a gunline in one shot (making them better as a linebreaker), whereas termies are stuck killing units one at a time.

I think Honour Guard or Vanguard Veterans are better than terminators in a Land Raider, as you can get more in, take out more targets, get more use out of an attached Chaplain or Librarian.

I don't think you can purchase LR as dedicated transports for any unit but Termies can you?

They wouldn't have scout as they're bulky.

Right, I forgot about the bulky thing.

But if you buy the LR as a heavy choice and deploy a non-bulky unit in it, the LR gets the scout USR from the embarked unit, right? (Should probably specify that I'm talking about Ravenguard chapter tactics here).

I was looking at land raiders as a good way to help hide my (non-scouting) jump pack guys and bikes on the way in anyway. Being able to throw in some AP3 templates and a hard assault unit is just a bonus. I'm thinking about the honor guard option.

 Flavius Infernus wrote:
Right, I forgot about the bulky thing.

But if you buy the LR as a heavy choice and deploy a non-bulky unit in it, the LR gets the scout USR from the embarked unit, right? (Should probably specify that I'm talking about Ravenguard chapter tactics here).

I was looking at land raiders as a good way to help hide my (non-scouting) jump pack guys and bikes on the way in anyway. Being able to throw in some AP3 templates and a hard assault unit is just a bonus. I'm thinking about the honor guard option.

I can't see anything that wouldn't permit it to scout. The LR doesn't have Chapter Tactics, but the unit inside does, so I'm pretty sure it works.

I'm assuming by 'hide' you mean you can block LOS, as JP and bikes can't go in a LR. Sounds obvious but I thought I'd clarify.

Honour Guard are pretty good, but I'd make sure that you have a chaplain attached to make the most of their attacks.

The Redeemer is by far the best variant in the main Codex; the Crusader doesn't have nearly enough firepower to justify its cost and the basic Land Raider's a schizophrenic vehicle that can't decide what exactly it wants to be able to do.

My personal favorite is the Land Raider Ares, but I'm not entirely sure it's legal; it was Games Workshop's poster child for homebuilt datasheets back when the 4e Apocalypse rules came out and mounted a Demolisher cannon, the Vindicator's siege shield, and two twin-linked heavy flamers plus a six-model transport capacity and all the standard trimmings of a Land Raider for 300pts.

The firepower of the Crusader seems poor until you compare it to other options. With 6 TL bolters, an Assault Cannon and potentially a Multi-melta, it has roughly equivalent firepower to a tac squad (6 TL bolters beats 7 non-TL, MM same, AC even better than most special weapon options).

If you compare the costs, the Tac squad with MM, veteran sergeant with Combi-melta and melta costs you 180 points. This becomes 215 with a Rhino. By comparison, the LRC costs 260 with a MM, so you're paying 45 points for AV14 all round versus 11/11/10, swapping out a MG and combi for an AC, twin-linking the bolters, and the ability to ignore small arms fire. While you lose the ability to hold objectives, comparison purely in terms of firepower makes the LRC look great. This comparison is also valid given the role it plays in the army. The LRR is a linebreaker, the Godhammer is a support unit, but the LRC should be a bastion, an anchor for the battle line that can keep a squad safe for capturing or counter-assault, can push forward while putting down huge amounts of firepower, and that can provide the firepower normally lacking in armoured lists.

 Paradigm wrote:
The firepower of the Crusader seems poor until you compare it to other options.

I'd actually suggest that it's just the opposite; the Crusader's six twin-linked bolters look fine on paper, but the Redeemer's got the exact same loadout except that it trades the Hurricane Bolters for Flamestorm Cannons (which hit harder (S6/AP3 versus S4/AP5) and skips the roll to hit, which means in practice they'll do a fair bit more damage to anything tougher than T3/Sv 5+), and it can only carry six Terminators, for ten fewer points. The only advantage the Crusader has over the Redeemer if you don't particularly mind getting stuck with six Terminators instead of eight is the ability to hit targets 24" away, but three bolter shots isn't going to do significant damage to anything at all.

I admit that in most cases it's hard to estimate the relative effectiveness of a normal weapon and a template or blast weapon because you don't know how many people you're going to catch under the template, but according to my calculations a Hurricane Bolter has approximately a 62% chance of killing a single lone Space Marine out of cover within rapid fire range, where a Flamestorm Cannon has an 83% chance of killing the same Space Marine if he's inside template range. The expected value of a Hurricane Bolter volley against a Space Marine unit is a flat 0.88 kills within rapid-fire range and 0.44 kills outside of rapid-fire range, while the expected value of a Flamestorm Cannon shot against the same squad is 0.83 kills per model under the template.

As with almost everything this is entirely dependent on what army you're expecting to face, but unless you think you'll be dealing with a lot of very spread-out T3/Sv5+ models that are actively staying between 10" and 12" of your Land Raider the Flamestorm Cannon is pretty much strictly better than the Hurricane Bolter.

As I say, I think the two have different roles. If you want a linebreaker, then I agree the LRR is strictly better, but if you want something to hold the line (but that can still move if it has to) then the LRC is shooting more and longer. And as I say, I compare it to a tac squad because that is essentially the role it fulfils.

In terms of damage per point, I think the LRR only really shines against MEQ, as on the whole, the gap would seem to be far closer against other lighter targets the LRC kills more. I haven't run the maths, but that's my gut feeling. There's also a factor or reliability. The LRC is getting 6/12 shots all the time, the LRR's damage output depends on the spacing of the unit you're facing. It can be far greater, but it could also be far less.

As I mentioned above, I generally prefer PA rather than TDA units in Land Raiders, as TDA have other methods of mobility (DS) that some other units like Honour Guard or Command Squad don't.

 techsoldaten wrote:
The best Landraider is a magnetized one where you can swap out the weapons to build any variant.

I agree about the Spartan. That, along with drop pods, are one of those things we CSM players really wish we had.

? Chaos has the spartan just as they also have the thunderhawk, contemptor, and deimos predator. It's in the newest apoc book.

Terminus Ultra

 azreal13 wrote:
I don't think you can purchase LR as dedicated transports for any unit but Termies can you?

They wouldn't have scout as they're bulky.

You are correct.

 Paradigm wrote:
As I say, I think the two have different roles. If you want a linebreaker, then I agree the LRR is strictly better, but if you want something to hold the line (but that can still move if it has to) then the LRC is shooting more and longer. And as I say, I compare it to a tac squad because that is essentially the role it fulfils.

In terms of damage per point, I think the LRR only really shines against MEQ, as on the whole, the gap would seem to be far closer against other lighter targets the LRC kills more. I haven't run the maths, but that's my gut feeling. There's also a factor or reliability. The LRC is getting 6/12 shots all the time, the LRR's damage output depends on the spacing of the unit you're facing. It can be far greater, but it could also be far less.

As I mentioned above, I generally prefer PA rather than TDA units in Land Raiders, as TDA have other methods of mobility (DS) that some other units like Honour Guard or Command Squad don't.

I'd love it if you could refute my math; the Redeemer ignores all armour short of Terminator armour and doesn't have to roll to hit which means that in most cases you need to roll one die to kill the target versus three dice the Hurricane Bolter needs. The large number of shots is almost irrelevant when weighed against the relative ineffectiveness of each individual shot (a Crusader's Hurricane Bolter kills a Guard-equivalent model with about 60% of shots and that number drops off for better models, a single model under a Redeemer's Flamestorm template dies 83% of the time unless it's got T5+ or a 2+ armour save and even then the Redeemer's extra Strength means it kills Terminators at almost the same rate a Crusader kills regular Space Marines). It really does look to me that the Redeemer is strictly better if you aren't planning on trying to transport eight Terminators or a big Black Templar Crusader squad into battle.

The main problem with the redeemer is that it has a range of 8" on its useful guns and since the 3rd edition Land Raiders have just died almost instantly to melta guns.


Perhaps when GW realizes how ineffective LRs are then the redeemer will be better! I agree tho, the redeemer IS better than the Crusader.. they're just both bad in general.