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Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut





IL

The presence of boobs is not what is turning women off to gaming. They don't get a hint of cleavage an run from the room screaming OMG beewebs!!!!!!!

Case and point next time you are at a bookstore or walmart take a look at the romance section or women's magazines which cater exclusively to the female market and you going to see cleavege at every turn. There's the hunky Fabio type with gleaming pecs and the women are all but falling out of their silk tops. Most women are fine with such images.

What drives the women away from the hobby is the fact that most gaming stores are unclean eyesores and the gaming boys/men are typically quite uncouth socially and have little concept of hygine. Women do no like mess, they do not like smell and they don't like being disrespected which is all common fare at the typical gaming store. Women do not like feeling like they are being excluded and most gaming stores have a very "boy only" amosphere. When you have stores that offer nice brightlighting and shelves that look like a normal retail place it not only drives away the light fearing man-child-trolls it makes the place much more inviting towards women and I've seen lots of more upscale stores with a much improved male/female ratio over the typical gaming man cave type store.

There's a reason nobody ever markets purfume with "Eau de' la Butt Crack" scent, women find poor hygine seriously unattracractive. A woman walking in the door and getting a wiff of stale sweat and week old ass is going to turn right around and walk out. Women also don't want to be mommy to some adult man child and don't want to be in an eviroment that's constantly filthy. Many game stores are beyond disgusting as most boys/men are prefectly content to wallow in a filthy enviroment.

Not saying that every individual here falls into this category, but many gaming shops do and that is what repels women far more than the imagry used in gaming art or miniatures.

Paulson Games parts are now at:
www.RedDogMinis.com 
   
Made in fr
Hallowed Canoness





 azreal13 wrote:
Women aren't excluded, they're not interested!

What about most of them are not interested, but those that are interested are often put off by a number of reason that have nothing to do with the game itself ?

"Our fantasy settings are grim and dark, but that is not a reflection of who we are or how we feel the real world should be. [...] We will continue to diversify the cast of characters we portray [...] so everyone can find representation and heroes they can relate to. [...] If [you don't feel the same way], you will not be missed"
https://twitter.com/WarComTeam/status/1268665798467432449/photo/1 
   
Made in au
Owns Whole Set of Skullz Techpriests






Versteckt in den Schatten deines Geistes.

I really don't want to get involved in some pointless social justice warrior/professional offence-taker brigade nonsense that seems to think any visual depiction of women is somehow automatically degrading/sexist/misogynistic/encouraging rape culture/robbing them of their agency/etc., so instead I'll do something a bit more lighthearted:

 azreal13 wrote:
In fact, pretty much every girl friend I have falls into the same basic category.


Hmm... that you "have"? Present tense?

You sly dog you!


Industrial Insanity - My Terrain Blog
"GW really needs to understand 'Less is more' when it comes to AoS." - Wha-Mu-077

 
   
Made in gb
Preacher of the Emperor






 azreal13 wrote:
I'm sorry to break this to you, but the models were created and the fluff designed to fit. GW just wanted to make boobies.

Ah, and you were present at the designing of the Repentia, so you can confirm this as fact?

Anyway, you're ignoring the importance of fluff. Fluff is just as important as appearence in explaining a model. The Repentia do have strong fluff behind them to go with their appearence, it is certainly not just a case of "hurr bewbs".

Order of the Righteous Armour - 542 points so far. 
   
Made in au
Longtime Dakkanaut





kb305 wrote:
 Las wrote:
 azreal13 wrote:
 Las wrote:
 cincydooley wrote:



Additionally, are there that many of you that actually care if there are females in you hobby? I mean, unless your hobby I orgies or swinging, I can't see why dudes even care.


Yeah, because the only thing that females can possibly offer is orgies and swinging.


Try and at least see the point he was making, rather than jumping in the language.

Many hobbies require another willing participant to be worthwhile, few need that person to be of the opposite gender.


It has nothing to do with needing anything from anyone. It's about the climate of exclusion that exists toward women in wargaming. cincydooley's post is a perfect example of this.


there is no climate of exclusion. just nerds debating fluff and little plastic men is enough to send a normal girl running before she even takes a close look at the product. sorry to burst your bubble.


There realy is a fairly big climate of exclusion, even just with this thread I would say. Normal girls are playing the games, shouldn't be as rare as people seem to think it should be. My group will get up to a 40% ratio for anything other than 40k, I play in a all girl group for RPGs and few others play magic. One of the bigist reason is no one even assumes we would be into it.

At conventions you will be left standing there assumed to be with someone, when at a new club people won't even talk to you like you could know what is going on, when finally playing people will say all sorts of things that realy shouldn't be said.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/11/04 01:33:49


 
   
Made in se
Dakka Veteran






 Las wrote:


That is the point.

It's intentionally geared toward men and therefore shuts out people who could potentially enjoy this awesome hobby the same way others do. Rampant portrayal of women as sexual objects is a result of this and contributes to this being a male dominated hobby when it doesn't have to be.


Which is why historical wargames have a diverse fanbase with a healthy amount of female players!


Oh wait...
   
Made in fr
Hallowed Canoness





I don't like the repentia models. It just doesn't work to me. It isn't repulsive and disgusting. Unlike my avatar. Which is totally naked, if you've seen the whole picture, and I never complained about that either. Still one more issue with the “He's just a prude” theory !

"Our fantasy settings are grim and dark, but that is not a reflection of who we are or how we feel the real world should be. [...] We will continue to diversify the cast of characters we portray [...] so everyone can find representation and heroes they can relate to. [...] If [you don't feel the same way], you will not be missed"
https://twitter.com/WarComTeam/status/1268665798467432449/photo/1 
   
Made in ca
Hauptmann




Hogtown

 Troike wrote:
 azreal13 wrote:
Women aren't excluded, they're not interested!

I should point out that women aren't a hive mind.

I've come across plenty of women who are into nerd stuff like vidya gaems and 40K. In regards to wargaming specifically, just look around this site. There are lots of women who like wargaming.


This.

I'm out of this. Good luck.

Thought for the day
 
   
Made in gb
The Daemon Possessing Fulgrim's Body





Devon, UK

 Troike wrote:
 azreal13 wrote:
Women aren't excluded, they're not interested!

I should point out that women aren't a hive mind.

I've come across plenty of women who are into nerd stuff like vidya gaems and 40K. In regards to wargaming specifically, just look around this site. There are lots of women who like wargaming.


Women aren't a hive mind, in fact due to the chromosomal construction of female DNA, they are more diverse than men.

To try and pretend that there are common traits to most is just daft.

There's a handful of females who post regularly on a site with tens of thousands of members, not exactly lots.

Also, at 35, I can count the number of girls/women who were genuinely, independently enthusiastic about video games I've known/know on one hand. All those have been interested in video games.

My girl friends demonstrate an appreciation for my painting if they see my models, not a one has ever expressed an interest in playing a game. I suspect that maybe, maybe one or two might enjoy a game of X Wing or something with a similarly shallow entry curve if I pushed them. But enough to buy it themselves, or go further and invest in the models and materials to play a full blown miniatures game? Absolutely not.

If you know plenty of women that are interested in wargames, I suggest you ask one on a date and work very hard in making her your wife, as your future hobby life will be infinitely easier.

For the rest of us, the best we can realistically hope for in a partner is tolerance.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Troike wrote:
 azreal13 wrote:
I'm sorry to break this to you, but the models were created and the fluff designed to fit. GW just wanted to make boobies.

Ah, and you were present at the designing of the Repentia, so you can confirm this as fact?

Anyway, you're ignoring the importance of fluff. Fluff is just as important as appearence in explaining a model. The Repentia do have strong fluff behind them to go with their appearence, it is certainly not just a case of "hurr bewbs".


No, it is well known that the production method at GW is models first, then the writing happens.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:
I don't like the repentia models. It just doesn't work to me. It isn't repulsive and disgusting. Unlike my avatar. Which is totally naked, if you've seen the whole picture, and I never complained about that either. Still one more issue with the “He's just a prude” theory !


Get over the "I'm not a prude thing" you're protesting too much.

If you're seriously saying your only issue with the picture is that she is poorly dressed for combat, and people have made several good arguments as to how this wouldn't necessarily the case, why is there still an issue?

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2013/11/04 01:35:51


We find comfort among those who agree with us - growth among those who don't. - Frank Howard Clark

The wise man doubts often, and changes his mind; the fool is obstinate, and doubts not; he knows all things but his own ignorance.

The correct statement of individual rights is that everyone has the right to an opinion, but crucially, that opinion can be roundly ignored and even made fun of, particularly if it is demonstrably nonsense!” Professor Brian Cox

Ask me about
Barnstaple Slayers Club 
   
Made in se
Dakka Veteran







 Troike wrote:
 azreal13 wrote:
I'm sorry to break this to you, but the models were created and the fluff designed to fit. GW just wanted to make boobies.

Ah, and you were present at the designing of the Repentia, so you can confirm this as fact?

Anyway, you're ignoring the importance of fluff. Fluff is just as important as appearence in explaining a model. The Repentia do have strong fluff behind them to go with their appearence, it is certainly not just a case of "hurr bewbs".


 azreal13 wrote:
No, it is well known that the production method at GW is models first, then the writing happens.


To be fair the models are playing on the flagellation/ religious asceticism tropes, which feel very natural in an army of religious fanatics
   
Made in fr
Hallowed Canoness





Apple fox wrote:
There realy is a fairly big climate of exclusion, even just with this thread I would say.

Hey, shut up, all those men around here know way better than you do how girls feels in a random LGS than you do, because it happens to them every time they go into one !
Oh, wait…

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/11/04 01:38:52


"Our fantasy settings are grim and dark, but that is not a reflection of who we are or how we feel the real world should be. [...] We will continue to diversify the cast of characters we portray [...] so everyone can find representation and heroes they can relate to. [...] If [you don't feel the same way], you will not be missed"
https://twitter.com/WarComTeam/status/1268665798467432449/photo/1 
   
Made in gb
The Daemon Possessing Fulgrim's Body





Devon, UK

And in the grim future of the 41st millennium, there is only boob jobs?

We find comfort among those who agree with us - growth among those who don't. - Frank Howard Clark

The wise man doubts often, and changes his mind; the fool is obstinate, and doubts not; he knows all things but his own ignorance.

The correct statement of individual rights is that everyone has the right to an opinion, but crucially, that opinion can be roundly ignored and even made fun of, particularly if it is demonstrably nonsense!” Professor Brian Cox

Ask me about
Barnstaple Slayers Club 
   
Made in gb
Preacher of the Emperor






 azreal13 wrote:
There's a handful of females who post regularly on a site with tens of thousands of members, not exactly lots.

Also, at 35, I can count the number of girls/women who were genuinely, independently enthusiastic about video games I've known/know on one hand. All those have been interested in video games.

So because they're supposedly a minority, they don't count?

I just don't like the generalisations you're applying, here. Like women who like these things are "exceptions" to women, rather than just individuals who happen to enjoy a certain hobby. I'm sorry if you feel that I'm misunderstanding you, or anything, but that's how I feel about your reasoning.

Also, I do think that a big part of what repels some women from these sorts of hobbies is them being so male dominated, as well as the "territorial male nerd" rubbish. A woman might feel like she sticks out coming into an otherwise all-male group, and they might treat her differently. And then there's the factor of some men in these hobbies being actively suspicious of women trying to enjoy them, with idiocy like "fake geek girls" actually being a thing. Basically, what I'm saying is that a lot of "nerd culture" probably isn't all that inclusive of women, which can be a major factor in women participating in these things.

Order of the Righteous Armour - 542 points so far. 
   
Made in au
Owns Whole Set of Skullz Techpriests






Versteckt in den Schatten deines Geistes.

Remember folks, boob-windows aren't misongynistic. Eating meat is misogynistic!

 azreal13 wrote:
My girl friends demonstrate an appreciation for my painting if they see my models, not a one has ever expressed an interest in playing a game. I suspect that maybe, maybe one or two might enjoy a game of X Wing or something with a similarly shallow entry curve if I pushed them. But enough to buy it themselves, or go further and invest in the models and materials to play a full blown miniatures game? Absolutely not.


Again, the implication of present tense multiples. Interesting.

Industrial Insanity - My Terrain Blog
"GW really needs to understand 'Less is more' when it comes to AoS." - Wha-Mu-077

 
   
Made in gb
Preacher of the Emperor






 azreal13 wrote:
No, it is well known that the production method at GW is models first, then the writing happens.

So they just make models with no clear ideas about them whatsoever?

Order of the Righteous Armour - 542 points so far. 
   
Made in fr
Hallowed Canoness





 azreal13 wrote:
If you're seriously saying your only issue with the picture is that she is poorly dressed for combat

You either did not read any of my message, including the very first message of this thread, or are voluntarily trying to infuriate me. Which one is it, pray ?

"Our fantasy settings are grim and dark, but that is not a reflection of who we are or how we feel the real world should be. [...] We will continue to diversify the cast of characters we portray [...] so everyone can find representation and heroes they can relate to. [...] If [you don't feel the same way], you will not be missed"
https://twitter.com/WarComTeam/status/1268665798467432449/photo/1 
   
Made in gb
The Daemon Possessing Fulgrim's Body





Devon, UK

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Remember folks, boob-windows aren't misongynistic. Eating meat is misogynistic!

 azreal13 wrote:
My girl friends demonstrate an appreciation for my painting if they see my models, not a one has ever expressed an interest in playing a game. I suspect that maybe, maybe one or two might enjoy a game of X Wing or something with a similarly shallow entry curve if I pushed them. But enough to buy it themselves, or go further and invest in the models and materials to play a full blown miniatures game? Absolutely not.


Again, the implication of present tense multiples. Interesting.




I will point to the distinction between "girl friends" and "girlfriends."

Unfortunately.

Frankly, my dating history, up until the last few years, for a wargamer, would just sound like I was making stuff up to sound impressive anyway, nobody would believe me!

We find comfort among those who agree with us - growth among those who don't. - Frank Howard Clark

The wise man doubts often, and changes his mind; the fool is obstinate, and doubts not; he knows all things but his own ignorance.

The correct statement of individual rights is that everyone has the right to an opinion, but crucially, that opinion can be roundly ignored and even made fun of, particularly if it is demonstrably nonsense!” Professor Brian Cox

Ask me about
Barnstaple Slayers Club 
   
Made in ca
Longtime Dakkanaut




 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:
Apple fox wrote:
There realy is a fairly big climate of exclusion, even just with this thread I would say.

Hey, shut up, all those men around here know way better than you do how girls feels in a random LGS than you do, because it happens to them every time they go into one !
Oh, wait…


Actually for those of us who have had girlfriends and need to pick something up from LGS and or GW. ya. we do have an idea. lol
   
Made in fr
Hallowed Canoness





 Troike wrote:
with idiocy like "fake geek girls"

Do you mean those succubus with a sonic screwdriver ?

"Our fantasy settings are grim and dark, but that is not a reflection of who we are or how we feel the real world should be. [...] We will continue to diversify the cast of characters we portray [...] so everyone can find representation and heroes they can relate to. [...] If [you don't feel the same way], you will not be missed"
https://twitter.com/WarComTeam/status/1268665798467432449/photo/1 
   
Made in gb
Preacher of the Emperor






 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:
 Troike wrote:
with idiocy like "fake geek girls"

Do you mean those succubus with a sonic screwdriver ?

Ha! Spot on.

This is another good one:
http://www.escapistmagazine.com/articles/view/comics/critical-miss/10060-Fake-Geek-Girls

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/11/04 01:47:52


Order of the Righteous Armour - 542 points so far. 
   
Made in gb
The Daemon Possessing Fulgrim's Body





Devon, UK

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:
 azreal13 wrote:
If you're seriously saying your only issue with the picture is that she is poorly dressed for combat

You either did not read any of my message, including the very first message of this thread, or are voluntarily trying to infuriate me. Which one is it, pray ?


I'll admit to my vision slipping off your posts slightly, as while your English is good, interpreting your turn of phrase isn't as natural for me as with an English native, but I've gone back and re-read your OP, and I see you say you don't mind impractical, you just object to the faint hint of cleavage.

Still baffled.

We find comfort among those who agree with us - growth among those who don't. - Frank Howard Clark

The wise man doubts often, and changes his mind; the fool is obstinate, and doubts not; he knows all things but his own ignorance.

The correct statement of individual rights is that everyone has the right to an opinion, but crucially, that opinion can be roundly ignored and even made fun of, particularly if it is demonstrably nonsense!” Professor Brian Cox

Ask me about
Barnstaple Slayers Club 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut





IL

 azreal13 wrote:
Frankly, my dating history, up until the last few years, for a wargamer, would just sound like I was making stuff up to sound impressive anyway, nobody would believe me!


By most wargamer's standards if you can count past girlfriends on more than one finger you've already headed into Don Juan, and Cassnova territory.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/11/04 01:49:42


Paulson Games parts are now at:
www.RedDogMinis.com 
   
Made in gb
The Daemon Possessing Fulgrim's Body





Devon, UK

 paulson games wrote:
 azreal13 wrote:
Frankly, my dating history, up until the last few years, for a wargamer, would just sound like I was making stuff up to sound impressive anyway, nobody would believe me!


By most wargamer's standards if you can count past girlfriends on more than one finger you've already headed into Don Juan, and Cassnova territory.



Well, if anyone is curious the highlights include 2 pole dancers, 1 glamour model, a student nurse (complete with uniform) and an aerobics instructor.

I swear, hand on heart, I'm not making this gak up, they were all nice, decent, articulate, intelligent people (other than the nurse, who I suspect was in the stages of a drinking problem, or was just 19, not sure) that I met outside their places of work (and technically one of the dancers and the model went on to do that, they didn't do it while we were together)

Believe it or not, your choice, I lived it, so I know.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/11/04 01:59:12


We find comfort among those who agree with us - growth among those who don't. - Frank Howard Clark

The wise man doubts often, and changes his mind; the fool is obstinate, and doubts not; he knows all things but his own ignorance.

The correct statement of individual rights is that everyone has the right to an opinion, but crucially, that opinion can be roundly ignored and even made fun of, particularly if it is demonstrably nonsense!” Professor Brian Cox

Ask me about
Barnstaple Slayers Club 
   
Made in fr
Hallowed Canoness





 azreal13 wrote:
I'll admit to my vision slipping off your posts slightly, as while your English is good, interpreting your turn of phrase isn't as natural for me as with an English native

Oh. I need to work on it then. Any advice ?
 azreal13 wrote:
and I see you say you don't mind impractical, you just object to the faint hint of cleavage.

Not right again ! I have no problem with cleavage on some models. Hell, I wouldn't have problem with full nudity on some models, if it's done right. Just on the right model, and done the right way.
 paulson games wrote:
By most wargamer's standards if you can count past girlfriends on more than one finger you've already headed into Don Juan, and Cassnova territory.

Could still count mine on my fingers even if I had both my hands cut off. And my feet too.

"Our fantasy settings are grim and dark, but that is not a reflection of who we are or how we feel the real world should be. [...] We will continue to diversify the cast of characters we portray [...] so everyone can find representation and heroes they can relate to. [...] If [you don't feel the same way], you will not be missed"
https://twitter.com/WarComTeam/status/1268665798467432449/photo/1 
   
Made in gb
The Daemon Possessing Fulgrim's Body





Devon, UK

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:
 azreal13 wrote:
I'll admit to my vision slipping off your posts slightly, as while your English is good, interpreting your turn of phrase isn't as natural for me as with an English native

Oh. I need to work on it then. Any advice ?

Nothing specific, it's just your French grammar and syntax coming through I suspect, the more native English you encounter, the better you'll get I expect.
 azreal13 wrote:
and I see you say you don't mind impractical, you just object to the faint hint of cleavage.

Not right again ! I have no problem with cleavage on some models. Hell, I wouldn't have problem with full nudity on some models, if it's done right. Just on the right model, and done the right way.

But why seize on this model, with no real nudity and reasons to explain it, to object to? Other than "you would have preferred some thing different "

We find comfort among those who agree with us - growth among those who don't. - Frank Howard Clark

The wise man doubts often, and changes his mind; the fool is obstinate, and doubts not; he knows all things but his own ignorance.

The correct statement of individual rights is that everyone has the right to an opinion, but crucially, that opinion can be roundly ignored and even made fun of, particularly if it is demonstrably nonsense!” Professor Brian Cox

Ask me about
Barnstaple Slayers Club 
   
Made in fr
Hallowed Canoness






I'm very confused by
“Fortunately, I'm very good at separating work from their creators, it'd be very hard to be an Earthworm Jim fan otherwise.”
I like the Earthworm Jim video games, especially the second one. What horrible things did the Earthworm Jim creators do ?

"Our fantasy settings are grim and dark, but that is not a reflection of who we are or how we feel the real world should be. [...] We will continue to diversify the cast of characters we portray [...] so everyone can find representation and heroes they can relate to. [...] If [you don't feel the same way], you will not be missed"
https://twitter.com/WarComTeam/status/1268665798467432449/photo/1 
   
Made in us
Lord of the Fleet





Seneca Nation of Indians

 Troike wrote:
 azreal13 wrote:
Women aren't excluded, they're not interested!

I should point out that women aren't a hive mind.

I've come across plenty of women who are into nerd stuff like vidya gaems and 40K. In regards to wargaming specifically, just look around this site. There are lots of women who like wargaming.



Dear god, for some reason I just thought of this picture reading your post and I have no idea why...




Fate is in heaven, armor is on the chest, accomplishment is in the feet. - Nagao Kagetora
 
   
Made in fr
Hallowed Canoness





 azreal13 wrote:
But why seize on this model, with no real nudity and reasons to explain it, to object to? Other than "you would have preferred some thing different "

It's not even a model, it's an illustration. It's because I really thinks here it breaks the harmony of the rest of the picture, feels very unnatural, and because Inquisitors are supposed to be awesome in a certain specific way that doesn't mix at all with this.
There is just cloth all around it, with the collar and the cape !

It's also because there are very very few female models and illustrations in 40k, and most of them are ok (like the eldars, both craftworld and dark). There's way worse stuff in the rest of the industry, in video games and even in WFB I guess. So since it's a rare occurrence, I reacted to it. If Blizzard made some boob-hole in some armor… well, business as usual, right ?

"Our fantasy settings are grim and dark, but that is not a reflection of who we are or how we feel the real world should be. [...] We will continue to diversify the cast of characters we portray [...] so everyone can find representation and heroes they can relate to. [...] If [you don't feel the same way], you will not be missed"
https://twitter.com/WarComTeam/status/1268665798467432449/photo/1 
   
Made in us
Sniping Reverend Moira





Cincinnati, Ohio

 azreal13 wrote:


For the rest of us, the best we can realistically hope for in a partner is tolerance.



Hear hear!

And quite frankly, that's all I want.


 
   
Made in fr
Hallowed Canoness





 BaronIveagh wrote:
Dear god, for some reason I just thought of this picture reading your post and I have no idea why...
Spoiler:

How and where did you found this ?

"Our fantasy settings are grim and dark, but that is not a reflection of who we are or how we feel the real world should be. [...] We will continue to diversify the cast of characters we portray [...] so everyone can find representation and heroes they can relate to. [...] If [you don't feel the same way], you will not be missed"
https://twitter.com/WarComTeam/status/1268665798467432449/photo/1 
   
 
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