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That's pretty much my point. The "hyper sexualized" imagery that sometimes appears in Fantasy and SciFi gaming really isn't any different from that you see in mainstream movies, television, literature, artwork, fashion, etc. in American culture at least. As such, I think it has a very, very small effect on whether or not a woman will choose to participate in tabletop wargaming. Heck, in Role Playing, there is a far higher percentage of female players than there are in tabletop wargaming, and it would be disingenous to assert that highly sexualized imagery doesn't exist in all aspects of the Role Playing hobby (from pictures in rule books to the costumes people wear while LARPing).

I firmly believe that the willingness of a potential female gamer to enter into tabletop wargaming is far more affected by the social interactions she has with the other gamers than it is by whether or not a miniature shows cleavage.

Saldiven wrote:
That's pretty much my point. The "hyper sexualized" imagery that sometimes appears in Fantasy and SciFi gaming really isn't any different from that you see in mainstream movies, television, literature, artwork, fashion, etc. in American culture at least. As such, I think it has a very, very small effect on whether or not a woman will choose to participate in tabletop wargaming. Heck, in Role Playing, there is a far higher percentage of female players than there are in tabletop wargaming, and it would be disingenous to assert that highly sexualized imagery doesn't exist in all aspects of the Role Playing hobby (from pictures in rule books to the costumes people wear while LARPing).

I firmly believe that the willingness of a potential female gamer to enter into tabletop wargaming is far more affected by the social interactions she has with the other gamers than it is by whether or not a miniature shows cleavage.

It certainly doesn't help. It will be something that will have to be dealt with on the way to a more inclusive hobby. To me the cheese cake imagery seems like low hanging fruit. As in, if you dropped it in favor of more equal and realistic portrayals, I don't think it would hurt much, and have a more long term beneficial outcome.

 CaulynDarr wrote:

Saldiven wrote:
That's pretty much my point. The "hyper sexualized" imagery that sometimes appears in Fantasy and SciFi gaming really isn't any different from that you see in mainstream movies, television, literature, artwork, fashion, etc. in American culture at least. As such, I think it has a very, very small effect on whether or not a woman will choose to participate in tabletop wargaming. Heck, in Role Playing, there is a far higher percentage of female players than there are in tabletop wargaming, and it would be disingenous to assert that highly sexualized imagery doesn't exist in all aspects of the Role Playing hobby (from pictures in rule books to the costumes people wear while LARPing).

I firmly believe that the willingness of a potential female gamer to enter into tabletop wargaming is far more affected by the social interactions she has with the other gamers than it is by whether or not a miniature shows cleavage.

It certainly doesn't help. It will be something that will have to be dealt with on the way to a more inclusive hobby. To me the cheese cake imagery seems like low hanging fruit. As in, if you dropped it in favor of more equal and realistic portrayals, I don't think it would hurt much, and have a more long term beneficial outcome.

It's also a fairly well discussed part of why women within the hobby struggle, it's certenly why I have issues. One of the main reasons I was able to get into Warmachine and hordes, is the female charecters in there. I could have fun and get positive female charecters, the same is for infinty. So it could be there allready is a shift away, if slowly.
40k drags its feet along with the issue.

Apple fox wrote:

 CaulynDarr wrote:

Saldiven wrote:
That's pretty much my point. The "hyper sexualized" imagery that sometimes appears in Fantasy and SciFi gaming really isn't any different from that you see in mainstream movies, television, literature, artwork, fashion, etc. in American culture at least. As such, I think it has a very, very small effect on whether or not a woman will choose to participate in tabletop wargaming. Heck, in Role Playing, there is a far higher percentage of female players than there are in tabletop wargaming, and it would be disingenous to assert that highly sexualized imagery doesn't exist in all aspects of the Role Playing hobby (from pictures in rule books to the costumes people wear while LARPing).

I firmly believe that the willingness of a potential female gamer to enter into tabletop wargaming is far more affected by the social interactions she has with the other gamers than it is by whether or not a miniature shows cleavage.

It certainly doesn't help. It will be something that will have to be dealt with on the way to a more inclusive hobby. To me the cheese cake imagery seems like low hanging fruit. As in, if you dropped it in favor of more equal and realistic portrayals, I don't think it would hurt much, and have a more long term beneficial outcome.

It's also a fairly well discussed part of why women within the hobby struggle, it's certenly why I have issues. One of the main reasons I was able to get into Warmachine and hordes, is the female charecters in there. I could have fun and get positive female charecters, the same is for infinty. So it could be there allready is a shift away, if slowly.
40k drags its feet along with the issue.

Yeah, the current Marine codex has more named characters than there have been named female special characters in the history of the game. Of which most of whom never had official models produced.

The many iterations of the Sisters of Battle Codex has even had more male special characters than female ones (Celestine, Praxedes and Helena vs Kyrinov, Armandus, Jacobus, and Karamazov) . Think about that.

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:
The fluff mention how the repentia included some of the most devout Sisters that actually got in here because they obsess over extremely minor or imaginary sins. I like that way better than the Repentia being some kind of Penal Legion where you go when you are punished and forced to by others, and need an overseer.

They don't need to overseer to force them, they're quite willing. She's there to judge them and punish them.

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:
Well, it mainly says that she is the one who will be able to say which one earned redemption at the end of battle.

Okay, so that's actually a pretty vital role. Repentia are outcasts from their Order, so somebody needs to lead and watch over them to judge when they're earnt their redemption.

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:
For me, it doesn't go well with it, because of what I said above. If anything, the Sororitas should try to restrain its more self-destructive elements so that they can actually help in battle.

But that's the point of the Repentia, they are the "self-destructive" elements of the Sororitas, taken to the extreme. Regular Sisters are a mix of zealot and soldier, they'll yell hymns and willingly give their lives, but they will employ tactics too, since they're elite soldiers. The Repentia, on the other hand, are all zealot. They actively charge towards the enemy, seeing death as a perfectly possible and reasonable end to their service. So, nah, restraining the self-destructiveness goes against the characterisation of the Repentia. They're full-on zealot nutters, and the Mistress adds to that.

xruslanx wrote:
well in the real world there are very few things that seek to appeal to both men and women. I see no reason why a sci-fi setting where 99% of the people who follow it are men, should appeal to women instead.

Do you think that swathes of men would give up 40K is it cut back on scantily clad women? Like I said, it's not a tradeoff. It can be more welcoming to women without becoming unappealing to men.

 CaulynDarr wrote:
The many iterations of the Sisters of Battle Codex has even had more male special characters than female ones (Celestine, Praxedes and Helena vs Kyrinov, Armandus, Jacobus, and Karamazov) . Think about that.

To be fair, the Sisters might've gotten more female special characters if they'd been able to get new plastics. Alas, modelling issues stood in the way of that.

 HiveFleetPlastic wrote:
What annoys me about that picture is the male-as-default pronoun in the text. Guys: it's okay to use generic pronouns. Male pronouns aren't "generic." They never were. Using them as if they are is quite creepy and exclusionary.

We don't have that problem in French, or we have it all the time, depending on one's point of view. Because we have no neutral, and therefore the male pronouns are actually canonically generic .

Saldiven wrote:
If I had to guess, the reason they come to the store is because it is nice, clean, well-lit, and has an owner with a great personality and inclusive manner to all kinds of gamers.

My FLGS is all that and more, but still very few girls playing there.

Apple fox wrote:
PP actuly gets praised for its depiction of women in gaming.

Still, it seems only trollkin have females, all other kind of trollblood (dire, pureblood, and pyg) are all male or something. The only female in my warband are two of my sluggers.

 CaulynDarr wrote:
Yeah, the current Marine codex has more named characters than there have been named female special characters in the history of the game.

Most of them do. How many female special characters ? Apart from the Sisters you already quoted, I guess there is one Inquisitor, Lelith, Lady Malys, and Shadowsun. With models, only Celestine, Lelith and Shadowsun.

 Troike wrote:
She's there to judge them and punish them.

But precisely, if they punish themselves for imaginary sins, the Mistress has nothing to judge them about.

 Troike wrote:
But that's the point of the Repentia, they are the "self-destructive" elements of the Sororitas, taken to the extreme.

Repentia are. Mistresses are not. So Mistresses should try to employ tactics, and make repentia do something useful, since they are still elite soldiers.

 Troike wrote:
Do you think that swathes of men would give up 40K is it cut back on scantily clad women?

Given how few women there are now, extremely unlikely.


Look at the ads I saw while typing those answers :

Notice how it says Girls for games and not Games for girls .

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

But precisely, if they punish themselves for imaginary sins, the Mistress has nothing to judge them about.

She's there to judge if they've earned redemption. The Repentia can't really do that for themselves.

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:
Repentia are. Mistresses are not. So Mistresses should try to employ tactics, and make repentia do something useful, since they are still elite soldiers.

Well, she does. She leads them.

And, again, I'd say that they largely leave their elite soldier component behind when they become Repentia. It's an entirely different mode of attack than their non-Repentia Sisters use.

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

Most of them do. How many female special characters ? Apart from the Sisters you already quoted, I guess there is one Inquisitor, Lelith, Lady Malys, and Shadowsun. With models, only Celestine, Lelith and Shadowsun.

There was a Dark Eldar one from a global campaign(I think), Jain Zarr, A named spirit seer out of the 3rd ed Eldar Codex, at least one of the Last Chancers, and I guess the Masque can sort-of count. That's it really.

Jack Chick would freak. theartificer put out another pic relevant to this topic... sort of.



While again, dubious proportions... I laughed my ass off at Cheetos and Mountain dew being in the picture.

Maybe this is relevant too :
http://www.wobblymodelsyndrome.com/4/post/2013/11/255-sister-sitting.html

 CaulynDarr wrote:

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

Most of them do. How many female special characters ? Apart from the Sisters you already quoted, I guess there is one Inquisitor, Lelith, Lady Malys, and Shadowsun. With models, only Celestine, Lelith and Shadowsun.

There was a Dark Eldar one from a global campaign(I think), Jain Zarr, A named spirit seer out of the 3rd ed Eldar Codex, at least one of the Last Chancers, and I guess the Masque can sort-of count. That's it really.

Kruellagh the Vile was in the 3rd ed Dsrk Eldar book, alongside Lilith. Rocket Girl was certainly one of the Last Chancers - can't recall if there was a second one.

Saldiven wrote:

None of them in my discussions have ever indicated that they bear offense to this imagery. Heck, many of them buy, paint, and play with the most sexualized miniatures out there.

Just ask them if they would like a better/bigger variety of female miniatures (than mostly pin ups). It might be that they are tolerating the status quo because they like some other aspect of the hobby.

People are offended by that inquisitor artwork just because of a bit of cleavage!? Wouldn't be surprised if soon we'll have people offended at an exposed ankle.

I am disappointed in this thread. It is chock full pictures of half naked men. This is certainly not the kind of fantasy gaming I had in mind.

 spaceelf wrote:
I am disappointed in this thread. It is chock full pictures of half naked men. This is certainly not the kind of fantasy gaming I had in mind.

So half-naked men bother you? Would it perhaps bother you if almost all pictures of men in your gaming material were such?

 MetalOxide wrote:
People are offended by that inquisitor artwork just because of a bit of cleavage!?

Strangely, the same people are not offended by a fully naked woman (right in the middle, can't miss it, it's my avatar) or some fully-naked man .
Hey, maybe there is a reason for that. Maybe you could spend one or two seconds of your life trying to understand it ?

Mario wrote:

Saldiven wrote:

None of them in my discussions have ever indicated that they bear offense to this imagery. Heck, many of them buy, paint, and play with the most sexualized miniatures out there.

Just ask them if they would like a better/bigger variety of female miniatures (than mostly pin ups). It might be that they are tolerating the status quo because they like some other aspect of the hobby.

Oh, I'm sure they'd like a wider variety. That doesn't mean that the lack of variety has made them not want to play, as evidenced by the fact that they are, well, playing.

I'd like a wider variety of Dwarves in the GW line, too.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

Saldiven wrote:
If I had to guess, the reason they come to the store is because it is nice, clean, well-lit, and has an owner with a great personality and inclusive manner to all kinds of gamers.

My FLGS is all that and more, but still very few girls playing there.

Dunno what to tell you. Over the last year or so, we've actually had two different all-girl gaming clubs get set up. The first one went down in a blaze of glory because one girl started sleeping with another girl's boyfriend, and the two girls in question were the two people who created the club. Needless to say, that didn't go over well, and the club kind of fizzled, though most of the women in the club still came around to play. Recently, another all girl group has started playing at the club. I hope this one lasts longer.

Though, I do have to say one thing, now that I think about it. The number of female players that came to the FLGS really started to spike upwards when the first all-girl gaming group formed up. They advertised on Facebook and Meetup, and a lot of female gamers that I had never met before started coming to the store on a regular basis. I think this may point to what someone else said earlier that more women would be interested in playing if there were more other women involved in the first place. Having other women there would probably make women new to the scene feel more comfortable. Maybe your FLGS should consider sponsoring a club catering towards the women's gaming experience to attract more of that clientele?

Saldiven wrote:
I think this may point to what someone else said earlier that more women would be interested in playing if there were more other women involved in the first place. Having other women there would probably make women new to the scene feel more comfortable. Maybe your FLGS should consider sponsoring a club catering towards the women's gaming experience to attract more of that clientele?

Yeah, I brought one friend to this FLGS to make her play a demo game. Sadly, very bad timing, since that day most of the staff had gone to do demo games to some event, and I ended up making her play with some of my Sisters against, well others of my Sisters. Now, of course, even if she looked enthusiastic about it, I sadly have no way to know if she was just being polite (damn Iranians and their t'aarof ). But still, she said she liked it, but also mentioned how she noticed she was the only girl in the store… and she never mentioned the game again.
I don't know if there really is a connexion here, but I guess I'll ask her one day.

New pic from the inquisitor codex

 Ravenous D wrote:
New pic from the inquisitor codex

She's not wearing a Burqa... OMG what a whore!

Again I think she looks great - make a great model as well

 Ravenous D wrote:
New pic from the inquisitor codex

Like it way better.

 paulson games wrote:

 Ravenous D wrote:
New pic from the inquisitor codex

She's not wearing a Burqa... OMG what a whore!

Have an exalt!

I blame women.

The eyes don't lie: Men really do look at women's bodies more than their faces, according to a new study that used eye-tracking technology to prove what many women have long observed.

But it's not just men who do it -- the study found that women look at other women's bodies, too.

"We live in a culture in which we constantly see women objectified in interactions on television and in the media. When you turn your own lens on everyday, ordinary women, we focus on those parts, too," says lead author and social psychologist Sarah Gervais of the University of Nebraska-Lincoln.

"Until now, we didn't have evidence people were actually doing that to women's bodies," she says. "We have women's self-reports, but this is some of the first work to document that people actually engage in this."

The participants – 29 women and 36 men – were outfitted with the eye-tracking system, which measures in milliseconds how long the eyes are fixed on certain spots. Their gazes reacted to photographs of the same 10 women, each with three different digitally manipulated body shapes – curvaceous, much less curvaceous and in-between. (Only women's bodies were viewed by study participants.) Both sexes fixed their gaze more on women's chests and waists and less on faces. Those bodies with larger breasts, narrower waists and bigger hips often prompted longer looks.

 Seaward wrote:
I blame women.

The eyes don't lie: Men really do look at women's bodies more than their faces, according to a new study that used eye-tracking technology to prove what many women have long observed.

But it's not just men who do it -- the study found that women look at other women's bodies, too.

"We live in a culture in which we constantly see women objectified in interactions on television and in the media. When you turn your own lens on everyday, ordinary women, we focus on those parts, too," says lead author and social psychologist Sarah Gervais of the University of Nebraska-Lincoln.

"Until now, we didn't have evidence people were actually doing that to women's bodies," she says. "We have women's self-reports, but this is some of the first work to document that people actually engage in this."

The participants – 29 women and 36 men – were outfitted with the eye-tracking system, which measures in milliseconds how long the eyes are fixed on certain spots. Their gazes reacted to photographs of the same 10 women, each with three different digitally manipulated body shapes – curvaceous, much less curvaceous and in-between. (Only women's bodies were viewed by study participants.) Both sexes fixed their gaze more on women's chests and waists and less on faces. Those bodies with larger breasts, narrower waists and bigger hips often prompted longer looks.

You can't blame women, that's not politically correct! Blaming men for everything is politically correct.

 Ravenous D wrote:
New pic from the inquisitor codex

That's how they see all women? Grey and ugly? Way to go alienating female players, Games Workshop!

 paulson games wrote:
She's not wearing a Burqa... OMG what a whore!

But nobody ever expressed a sentiment like that.

 fishy bob wrote:
That's how they see all women? Grey and ugly? Way to go alienating female players, Games Workshop!

Well, you know, hunting heretics doesn't always leave one looking like a supermodel.

 Ravenous D wrote:
New pic from the inquisitor codex

Now that's a cool looking Inquisitor!

And yes, she would make a good model. She'd go well with the male Inquisitor who has that sort of hat.

She is very pretty in a elfin (eldar ) way so modelling is not that impossible for her.

Be a great gaming model as well tbh

 paulson games wrote:

 Ravenous D wrote:
New pic from the inquisitor codex

She's not wearing a Burqa... OMG what a whore!

You've been reading this whole thread and you still think that's what this is about? Really?

 BobtheInquisitor wrote:

 paulson games wrote:

 Ravenous D wrote:
New pic from the inquisitor codex

She's not wearing a Burqa... OMG what a whore!

You've been reading this whole thread and you still think that's what this is about? Really?

While it might not be in the simplest of terms - it does sort of boil down to that. You have one side which believes that females should only be portrayed in sensible clothes (with varying degrees of what is considered sensible - a moving goal post to be certain) and the other side who really doesn't care too much. In the middle you have manufacturers who really don't care what they produce provided that it sells.

If they make a figure in a chain mail bikini - the ones who want them to make only sensible females say they are pandering and reinforcing negative stereotypes (or which ever mantra you would like to hang your hat on). However, when they make sensibly clad female figures - they do not sell well enough to justify them. Now, some people point to Infinity as sensible - but they are considered overly sexualized by others still (very little effort searching can find examples of people freaking out over a belly button being exposed).

No matter what is done, if there is a female in miniature - who is obviously a female, you will still have those who get out the soap box and freak out a good bit. If you don't like it - don't buy it. It really is pretty easy. People do like it though, and it sells, so expect to see it for the foreseeable future.