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 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

 azreal13 wrote:
Again, to reiterate my point from earlier in the thread, and Buzzsaw's too (and possibly others) the best way to ensure miniatures in the style you prefer get made, or continue to get made, is to endorse them by making a purchase.

To buy models that you feel compelled to convert to better suit your tastes doesn't work, as that isn't any different from buying them and not touching them.

First, I didn't buy those models, it was a present from my mother. Second, there is a big difference between converting them and not converting them : they look more like how I want them to look afterward. And, that may be some huge revelation to you, but it's the reason behind most conversions. Usually people don't convert their models to make them more PC, or to get more women in the hobby, or whatever. I know I don't.

Great. so this specific instance with the specific models you mentioned weren't bought by you. That doesn't invalidate my wider point that people who feel strongly about how a miniature portrays it's subject shouldn't buy something they consider inappropriate and then "fix" it.

That is what I was really driving at, but it appears you took me a little too literally.

 azreal13 wrote:
If a model isn't in production that is close enough to fit what you need, then it is up to you and your principles.

Let me think about it. There is almost no trollblood with a military cap (except Gunbjornn, of course), and as far as I know no trollblood with a cigar. So, should I “follow my principle” or whatever, and not buy any trollblood, or should I just have fun sculpting cigars and caps with green stuff ?
The answer is in my blitzer :

Again, you've slightly missed my point, unless you have some philosophical objection to the Trollblood faction in general! I meant when purchasing a model which you find to a greater or lesser degree "offensive" and altering what you have an issue with, not converting in general. Hence my reference to principles, if your need or desire to have a mini that starts life as something you find objectionable outweighs your desire to withhold money from a company making models you don't approve of.

 azreal13 wrote:

Spoiler:

I was curious, so I went on their website. It appears they have a whole section dedicated to girls (other categories are sci-fy, renaissance, fantasy, …), with a subcategory called “victim girls” !
My favorite “victim girl” is “Ukrainian Slavegirl” because… well, because how the hell are we supposed to notice that she is Ukrainian, since she's just walking completely naked ? The only explanation for the title is that the sculptor has weird fetishes.
“Actions girls” also have some utterly ridiculous (NSFW) models :

Spoiler:

Also strangely, some perfectly decent models :


Well, shuffling through those models was quite funny ! Thanks for the good laugh, Azreal.

Debating with you is like juggling jelly! You have an issue with the original picture, yet find some of the most overtly exploitative models I am aware of in current production amusing? Models I find a little close to the line, yet I'm the one who other posters have attempted to label sexist?

FYI The slave girl is "Ukranian" because there is some political history between the sculptors nation (Russia? I forget off the top of my head) and Ukraine. There was some quite heated debate about it in News and Rumours that lead to the thread which announced it's release getting locked IIRC. So not only does the particular model have a distinctly gender exploitative edge, it also has a racial undercurrent too.

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

My favorite “victim girl” is “Ukrainian Slavegirl” because… well, because how the hell are we supposed to notice that she is Ukrainian, since she's just walking completely naked ? The only explanation for the title is that the sculptor has weird fetishes.

Basically, the head and Hairstyle is a dead ringer for a former Ukranian President, who is currently jailed for corruption on what many suspect are trumped-up charges by a Russian-controlled proxy government (I seem to remember Tulashenko or whatever her name was was rather anti-Russian Politically). Brother Vinni happens to be Russian, so it's really kinda a cheap shot.

 azreal13 wrote:
To echo the point Buzzsaw was making, this...

Spoiler:

Is due for release by Hasslefree in the near future. For those who want more females, or more realistic females, this is the sort of thing you probably need to be ordering multiples of to send the message to those whose livelihoods depend on the sale of such items that this style is a good idea if they want to be able to afford an extra big turkey this year.

The amusing thing is that's one of Kev White's figures. And Kev/Hasslefree is ...known for his love of the female form.

With regard to that particular figure, though - Kev usually makes individuals, and so while I will personally be buying that down the line, it's not really a suitable model for multiples, especially for people like me where the modelling and painting is at least as important as the gaming. If Kev does a unit of them, then I'll be on board - much like when Vic releases her modular Female Guard sets soonish. Though this doesn't mean I can't also like Raging Heroes' products.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 MetalOxide wrote:
I noticed that GW make some awesome female Imperial Guard...

Spoiler:

How do you know that they are not sexy women?

Button placement.

 azreal13 wrote:
Again, you've slightly missed my point, unless you have some philosophical objection to the Trollblood faction in general! I meant when purchasing a model which you find to a greater or lesser degree "offensive" and altering what you have an issue with, not converting in general.
[…]
You have an issue with the original picture, yet find some of the most overtly exploitative models I am aware of in current production amusing?

No. I didn't miss your point. You did. You completely misunderstood my position on the original picture, even though I stated it, restated it, and did that so many time I grew frustrated at repeating myself. I'm not doing that again. Certainly not if you are not giving me any hint that you are in good faith trying to understand.
From now on, consider I share the traits of a couple of famous gods : like Jehovah, I work on mysterious way, and like Yog-Sothoth, I'm totally and utterly incomprehensible. Don't even try to understand what I write, you'll end up as mad as a Call of Cthulhu RPG character that survived too many sessions !

 azreal13 wrote:
Models I find a little close to the line, yet I'm the one who other posters have attempted to label sexist?

Yep. Also note I have twice posted pictures from a totally exploitative movie called Planet Terror, one of which main protagonist is a stripper with a machinegun attached to her stump. The movie does include some stereotypical “sexy nurse” outfits too. That's certainly another reason to label me, rather than you, a sexist.
Who knows, maybe they'll do now. We'll see.

And it seems more like nationalist undertones than racial undertones. Not that hating an ethnic group is better than hating a race, but let's not make that confusion again.

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

 easysauce wrote:
and please note, no SUPER STEROID FREAKs for men as well...

Do you mean nothing like

Spoiler:

or

Spoiler:

I love

Too bad she'll integrate better in a space marines army than in a sisters of battle army.

I don't actually have a problem with cheesecake or beefcake models. Amazingly, I can always choose to buy or not buy them or to ignore them - just as I do for more sensibly attired models of both genders. My personal aesthetic has enough space for both. I really only take issue when something is, well, like the FemPred - something that's supposed to be a specific thing, and no other real options for that figure type, but has silly gigantaboobs. If, however, there was a second FemPred model with more reasonable proportions (and they could still be D-cups, just not H-cups), then I'd be sated, since there'd be an option.

As for that Hasslefree Libby - you could use her as an Inquisitorial/retinue type in a Sisters army quite easily. They don't have standardised power armour like the Sororitas or Astartes, after all.

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

 azreal13 wrote:
Again, you've slightly missed my point, unless you have some philosophical objection to the Trollblood faction in general! I meant when purchasing a model which you find to a greater or lesser degree "offensive" and altering what you have an issue with, not converting in general.
[…]
You have an issue with the original picture, yet find some of the most overtly exploitative models I am aware of in current production amusing?

No. I didn't miss your point. You did. You completely misunderstood my position on the original picture, even though I stated it, restated it, and did that so many time I grew frustrated at repeating myself. I'm not doing that again. Certainly not if you are not giving me any hint that you are in good faith trying to understand.
From now on, consider I share the traits of a couple of famous gods : like Jehovah, I work on mysterious way, and like Yog-Sothoth, I'm totally and utterly incomprehensible. Don't even try to understand what I write, you'll end up as mad as a Call of Cthulhu RPG character that survived too many sessions !

 azreal13 wrote:
Models I find a little close to the line, yet I'm the one who other posters have attempted to label sexist?

Yep. Also note I have twice posted pictures from a totally exploitative movie called Planet Terror, one of which main protagonist is a stripper with a machinegun attached to her stump. The movie does include some stereotypical “sexy nurse” outfits too. That's certainly another reason to label me, rather than you, a sexist.
Who knows, maybe they'll do now. We'll see.

And it seems more like nationalist undertones than racial undertones. Not that hating an ethnic group is better than hating a race, but let's not make that confusion again.

I'm aware that your objection to the original picture wasn't on the grounds of nudity per sé, but I'm somewhat surprised you can view those models, especially considering you've participated in the thread as it has developed into a wider overall discussion about women and their representation, and feel only amusement?

EDIT
Can we please leave your original argument, your failure to express it in terms that make sense to me, or my failure to comprehend it behind now? I have made an effort, but I'm afraid there seems to be a distinctly nuanced line with regard to the context of the image, and what you would have preferred to have seen in the image, which apparently has nothing to do with the boob window specifically, but I'm just not getting it, for whatever reason, and that particular dialogue isn't really relevant at this point in the ongoing discussion anyway.

 Azazelx wrote:
As for that Hasslefree Libby - you could use her as an Inquisitorial/retinue type in a Sisters army quite easily. They don't have standardised power armour like the Sororitas or Astartes, after all.

Noone in the Ecclesiarchal conclave have access to power armor. The best way to use her is as some allied inquisitor in power armor ! Or just as a priest, without any respect for wysiwyg. I don't think my opponents will mind. But I'm currently too busy with my trollbloods to do some sisters.

 azreal13 wrote:
but I'm somewhat surprised you can view those models, especially considering you've participated in the thread as it has developed into a wider overall discussion about women and their representation, and feel only amusement?

Well, first, those aren't some game models, so they are way less “enforced” than display/custom models. Yeah, I know one never have any real obligation to choose a specific unit or faction in a game, that one can use count-as, and that one can refuse to play games against some specific models if they want to. Still way less pressure with custom models than with official models linked to a game you might otherwise enjoy, in a faction you might otherwise decide to play, or might find yourself facing.
Since I can totally see how it might disturb and unsettle people, especially girls and newcomers, I wouldn't like my LGS to put that miniature at the forefront of their display window, or even to allow it to be regularly used by someone as an “objective token”. And I won't personnally buy it, of course.
But why cry about it, and argue against their very existence ? It's like porn : I guess it's okay that some people have porn, as long as they keep relatively quiet about it in public. Just don't rub it in other people's face ! I personally have some equally shocking tastes too, though on a very different manner, with movies like Vampire girl versus Frankenstein girl. (Please note that Vampire Girl versus Frankenstein Girl is in no conceivable way a porno, even though it does have some particularly ridiculous (NSFW and spoilers)“sexy nurse” outfit.)

Second, I don't know any more natural reaction to something extremely silly and stupid than to laugh at it . Even if it's offensive ! I also laugh a lot when reading some Chick Comics (the hardline Christian guy. Again, no porn involved !), for instance, even though it can be pretty offensive sometime. It's just too silly to be taken seriously.

 azreal13 wrote:
Personally, Brother Vinni's work has made me feel more uncomfortable than pretty much anything else I've seen, except maybe the Kingdom: Death Wet Nurse, in terms of subject matter/portrayal of women.

Same here. I don't really like Vinni's "victim girls" at all, and personally I'd say they're probably worse for me than anything else I've seen, even the KD wet nurse, and do far more harm than the usual "cheesecake" crap that we've been talking about. Speaking of the wet nurse, somehow that model didn't quite affect me the same way it seemed to for everyone else, it wasn't really that shocking and I don't feel that bothered by it...probably because it's a monster/demon and I just kinda expect horribleness from them in general. But when we're talking about humans doing horrific things to each other I just find that infinitely more disturbing than a multi-boobed tentacle sex monster.

As for why it hasn't been featured, well...it does kinda speak for itself. I mean do we really need anyone to explain in detail exactly what's wrong with them? If that stuff doesn't immediately set off alarm bells and make you uncomfortable in any way then there might be something wrong with you.

I guess I felt compelled to bring it up precisely to couch the FemPred in some sort of context.

While I'm sure some would protest that it is somehow different, if people believe there are women who feel obstructed from participating in this hobby because of the way females are presented in model form, citing something like the FemPred for being, at worst, disproportionate, when items like that exist in the same niche whiffs more than a bit, to me, of fiddling while Rome burns.

Maybe a little bit, yeah. Honestly I think I was just trying to forget those models even existed, but then you had to go remind me!

But yeah, I'd say there are definitely worse things than a predator with huge baps. It also goes without saying that the predator model isn't even really that bad, the breasts are the worst thing about it and even that could be excused away with "heroic scale proportions, hurr!", but I'm sure that's already been established.

The FemPred kind of reminds me of the type of build female body builders have. More pectorals than anything.

It seems to me that the Predator's breast size is less of a problem than how they are displayed. I'd rather see free-sagging flap jacks than a wonderbra, although an armored sports bra would work better.

There's a reason why certain bras are not worn during sports activities:
NSFW!

Brother Vinni's "victim" line is troubling to me in a degree that the FemPredator isn't, It's not just the nudity, but the nudity + the bondage poses. There has to be a market for them, I suppose. I just wouldn't want to see them in my opponent's Dark Eldar army as objective markers or pain tokens (though thematically accurate for the drugged-out-serial-killer angle), and even painting for one display would make me feel a bit skeevy. I paint using real world references a lot, but do I really want to spend my time researching THAT?

 MetalOxide wrote:

 Ouze wrote:
In the lore, which may or may not be canon, they do indeed have breasts and are substantially stronger and larger than the male Predators we have seen so far. They do not normally engage in the hunt, though.

Ah, that's pretty interesting, thanks for the info.

That would have been interesting to see. Maybe even keep the breasts as a visual shorthand for the gender, but have her be bigger and bulkier than the males. I can't tell the scale from the Prodos pictures, but she looks pretty skinny there.

 Crazy_Carnifex wrote:

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

My favorite “victim girl” is “Ukrainian Slavegirl” because… well, because how the hell are we supposed to notice that she is Ukrainian, since she's just walking completely naked ? The only explanation for the title is that the sculptor has weird fetishes.

Basically, the head and Hairstyle is a dead ringer for a former Ukranian President, who is currently jailed for corruption on what many suspect are trumped-up charges by a Russian-controlled proxy government (I seem to remember Tulashenko or whatever her name was was rather anti-Russian Politically). Brother Vinni happens to be Russian, so it's really kinda a cheap shot.

I had missed that. It moves Brother Vinni's stuff from 'disturbing' to 'disgusting.' And I thought my opinion of him couldn't get any lower.

Yeah, a recognizable likeness of a real person in that context makes for a very different thing indeed.

Vinni's work is absolutely disgusting, I don't know why anyone would want to buy his stuff.

 azreal13 wrote:
While I'm sure some would protest that it is somehow different, if people believe there are women who feel obstructed from participating in this hobby because of the way females are presented in model form, citing something like the FemPred for being, at worst, disproportionate, when items like that exist in the same niche whiffs more than a bit, to me, of fiddling while Rome burns.

Well, one is part of a big set of miniatures in a very specific, already established and quite popular setting, designed for a specific game, while the others are obscure one-shot from an obscure studio.
I can imagine a girl thinking “Woah, they made some Alien versus Predator miniature game ? Awesome, let's try it.” and then having a problem with the FemPred or something. But I couldn't imagine a girl wanting to buy Brother Vinni's miniature and then, afterward, discovering it's a naked girl.

I went to check the Kingdom Death miniatures again. I really don't see the problem with the Wet Nurse itself. I'm more worried about how all the humans that are dressed in sexy ways, or even nude, are women, except for this very strange exception (and it's a young boy, pedobear approves !). And even more worried by the fact every slaves of the monsters are women. Of course, there are the women around the wet nurse itself, but also those :
http://gallery.kingdomdeath.com/Infant-Sunstalker
http://shop.kingdomdeath.com/collections/sold-out/products/the-scribe
http://shop.kingdomdeath.com/collections/sold-out/products/lion-knight-2nd
Why do those monsters only want girl slaves ?

 MetalOxide wrote:
Vinni's work is absolutely disgusting, I don't know why anyone would want to buy his stuff.

To be fair, some of the slave girls would be useful in a Slanneshi themed army. They would also be useful in an RPG, as victims that have to rescued. My only big disapointment is the lack of similar slave boys.



Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also, i have been after one of those pinup models for some time

I have a couple of Birdies with machine pistols from Vinnie that I use for some zombie games or moderns, they are absolutly friggin cool.

I've said time and again, for the talent, he or she is wasting it on the BDSM figures and honestly putting some uniforms on the chickies and just up and offering them at that. The mastery of the resin is stunning, compared to some. For the price, as well? Vinnies got a pretty good selection of wheat within the chaff.


I honestly thought at first that vinnie had some hands in on that female pred.

 MetalOxide wrote:
Vinni's work is absolutely disgusting, I don't know why anyone would want to buy his stuff.

Because some people like what you don't like

I just found those articles, which seems imho quite relevant on the subject :
http://www.rockpapershotgun.com/2013/11/22/blizzard-on-heroes-of-the-storm-female-designs-in-mobas/
(Last three questions)
http://www.rockpapershotgun.com/2013/11/22/re-that-heroes-of-the-storm-interview/
and finally, Blizzard answer :
http://www.heroesofthestorm.com/en-us/news/11751531/on-character-design
This is video game rather than models, but still, it's a quite similar issue. The biggest difference being that I don't seem to recall any member of GW studio ever giving an interview to a third party website or magazine, but I may just have missed it .


And just in case, I want to reiterate that my first and main issue about “boob windows” or other “sexy” design is that most of the time they either don't look good, or don't integrate well with the rest of the universe and/or the nature of the character. If reducing it to case it's actually relevant happens makes more girls interested in gaming, that's nothing but an awesome side-effect.
(And also, Brother Vinni's models are to GW's models what RapeLay is to Blizzard games. Definitely not at all the same games, scales, audiences, and therefore totally different questions. One is clearly designed by and for creeps only, one is mainstream. The AvP kickstarter may not be as mainstream as 40k, but surely it's not comparable in any way to a creepy game whose only focus is raping.)

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:
I just found those articles, which seems imho quite relevant on the subject :
http://www.rockpapershotgun.com/2013/11/22/blizzard-on-heroes-of-the-storm-female-designs-in-mobas/
(Last three questions)
http://www.rockpapershotgun.com/2013/11/22/re-that-heroes-of-the-storm-interview/
and finally, Blizzard answer :
http://www.heroesofthestorm.com/en-us/news/11751531/on-character-design
This is video game rather than models, but still, it's a quite similar issue. The biggest difference being that I don't seem to recall any member of GW studio ever giving an interview to a third party website or magazine, but I may just have missed it .


And just in case, I want to reiterate that my first and main issue about “boob windows” or other “sexy” design is that most of the time they either don't look good, or don't integrate well with the rest of the universe and/or the nature of the character. If reducing it to case it's actually relevant happens makes more girls interested in gaming, that's nothing but an awesome side-effect.
(And also, Brother Vinni's models are to GW's models what RapeLay is to Blizzard games. Definitely not at all the same games, scales, audiences, and therefore totally different questions. One is clearly designed by and for creeps only, one is mainstream. The AvP kickstarter may not be as mainstream as 40k, but surely it's not comparable in any way to a creepy game whose only focus is raping.)

O.o ?

That is called a formal fallacy. Thanks for the example.

 Grot 6 wrote:
That is called a formal fallacy.

I'm sorry, I can't hear you over the sound of that virtual girl I'm raping in this Japanese video game . Sorry for indirectly calling you a creep.

 MetalOxide wrote:
Vinni's work is absolutely disgusting, I don't know why anyone would want to buy his stuff.

Because men are pigs and pervs (and as long as it are 2 (or more) consenting adults, then there is nothing wrong with that )

Then these would realy burst your bubble
NSFW

The difference with the majority of those Excalibur minis (at least, as far as I can tell from the lousy photography) is that while they are undoubtedly NSFW, and overtly sexual, they differ from Vinni's (or at least the ones that give me pause) in there isn't really a sadistic edge, most have either a consensual, or even humorous edge to them (I'll admit to not trolling through every model on every page though, so might have missed some slightly edgier ones.)

Lets see. I play Warmachine. My faction is Menoth. They have a unit called Wracks. They look like this.



Mine look like this.



Yup, I added breasts to one of them. Why? Because I wanted one to be female and felt there was no reason why she should cover up if the males in the exact same predicament didn't have to. Does it make me a perv? Donno. I don't feel like a perv. I wanted one to be female so I made one female. With no head to speak of, there is very little else anatomy wise you can do to show that one is female.

And thats the rub. in Minitures there are only two ways to depict the female form. Head and boobs. Thats it. Even tight asses can easily belong to both genders. But heads and breasts are the dead give a ways. So you want female guardsmen? Take your normal guardsmen, go to pig iron minis and buy a bunch of female heads. Ta-da. Female guardsmen. Because I have seen my fair share of real life females in body armor. The breasts go away. They really do. So that leaves heads, and there are quite a few places that can supply those.

You can also pretend that they're female.



That's one of the female in my army.

Edit: MetalOxide stole my joke :(

 azreal13 wrote:
The difference with the majority of those Excalibur minis (at least, as far as I can tell from the lousy photography) is that while they are undoubtedly NSFW, and overtly sexual, they differ from Vinni's (or at least the ones that give me pause) in there isn't really a sadistic edge, most have either a consensual, or even humorous edge to them (I'll admit to not trolling through every model on every page though, so might have missed some slightly edgier ones.)

They also are not supposed to be serious soldiers, commanders or heroes. Those models represent women (and men? didn't look at too many.) who have a good reason to be naked, assuming everything is consensual. Now, if they were supposed to be player characters on a quest or frontline troops, and they were mostly sexualized, then it wouldn't be appropriate.

 Jayden63 wrote:
Mine look like this.

Spoiler:

Yeah, but it makes sense in context !

 Jehan-reznor wrote:

 MetalOxide wrote:
Vinni's work is absolutely disgusting, I don't know why anyone would want to buy his stuff.

Because men are pigs and pervs (and as long as it are 2 (or more) consenting adults, then there is nothing wrong with that )

Then these would realy burst your bubble
NSFW

Spoiler:

http://www.excalibur-miniatures.com/shop/index.php?cPath=5&XTCsid=lfi78qjhb0m0strin12su9tio6

I... I will need to get home before I click on that link again and take proper look....